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#141 njdevsftw

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 10:54 AM

He's 20. Someone ressurect this thread in 5 years.
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#142 Triumph

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 11:36 AM

Luongo is an HOF level goaltender, sorry guys.  He's 4th all time in save percentage, he'll probably be top 10 in wins when it's over.  He hasn't won a Vezina by sheer chance - he had a better season than Brodeur two of the times Brodeur took the award.  

 

It's vague because even the most borderline of NHL defensemen can make outlet passes often enough.  If it's a skill you're looking for to tell yourself that a defenseman is good, you'll be able to conclude that any defenseman you want is good.  I'm sure I could find just as many nice outlet passes from Peter Harold than you can from Larsson. 

 

Otherwise, he isn't particularly fast, he's not physical, he doesn't have a shot that's anything special, he's not the smoothest skater.  What's left?

 

It's deeply ironic that I am the one that has to tell you this but:  Watch the games.  Outlet passing isn't a random skill that players either exhibit or don't - it's the ability to find the stick of your man as he's moving around the ice.  It's a difficult thing to do - a lot of defensemen never really master it.  Larsson came into the league and he was able to do it like a veteran - he makes his share of mistakes doing it still, but those will diminish in time.  This should be a skill that jumps out at you when watching hockey.  How it translates into performance is more difficult to pin down, but Larsson hasn't been a significant territorial drag despite his other limitations, so I suspect it's his passing skill that's kept him afloat.

 

As for Larsson's physicality, that will increase once his speed does.  He won't be a guy that's throwing huge hits left and right but that's of dubious value anyway.  He can definitely catch people unaware at the blueline from time to time.


Edited by Triumph, 16 October 2013 - 11:36 AM.

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#143 Daniel

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 12:55 PM

Luongo is an HOF level goaltender, sorry guys.  He's 4th all time in save percentage, he'll probably be top 10 in wins when it's over.  He hasn't won a Vezina by sheer chance - he had a better season than Brodeur two of the times Brodeur took the award.  

 

 

It's deeply ironic that I am the one that has to tell you this but:  Watch the games.  Outlet passing isn't a random skill that players either exhibit or don't - it's the ability to find the stick of your man as he's moving around the ice.  It's a difficult thing to do - a lot of defensemen never really master it.  Larsson came into the league and he was able to do it like a veteran - he makes his share of mistakes doing it still, but those will diminish in time.  This should be a skill that jumps out at you when watching hockey.  How it translates into performance is more difficult to pin down, but Larsson hasn't been a significant territorial drag despite his other limitations, so I suspect it's his passing skill that's kept him afloat.

 

As for Larsson's physicality, that will increase once his speed does.  He won't be a guy that's throwing huge hits left and right but that's of dubious value anyway.  He can definitely catch people unaware at the blueline from time to time.

 

Larsson's outlet passing is actually something I do pay attention to, since it's touted as one of his main attributes and I'm interested in his progress.  I just don't see it adding up to anything concrete on the ice, and it doesn't seem all that impressive when I see Peter Harrold basically being able to do the same thing.  I don't see it as a "random skill". ( It's been a long time, but I guess you could say Daneyko wasn't particularly good at it.)  Rather, it's common enough that in order for it to be something that makes a defenseman truly special, which is what we were all plausibly hoping Larsson could be, the outlet passing out to stand out. 

 

Now, if it's true that most young defensemen in the NHL fall all over themselves when making the outlet passes, then I'm willing to accept that there's more to the ordinariness of Larsson's outlet passing at this stage of his career. 


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#144 ATLL765

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 02:04 PM

Larsson's outlet passing is actually something I do pay attention to, since it's touted as one of his main attributes and I'm interested in his progress.  I just don't see it adding up to anything concrete on the ice, and it doesn't seem all that impressive when I see Peter Harrold basically being able to do the same thing.  I don't see it as a "random skill". ( It's been a long time, but I guess you could say Daneyko wasn't particularly good at it.)  Rather, it's common enough that in order for it to be something that makes a defenseman truly special, which is what we were all plausibly hoping Larsson could be, the outlet passing out to stand out. 

 

Now, if it's true that most young defensemen in the NHL fall all over themselves when making the outlet passes, then I'm willing to accept that there's more to the ordinariness of Larsson's outlet passing at this stage of his career. 

Volch and Sal can't make a clean outlet pass to save their lives. Larsson is pretty good at it already.


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#145 SterioDesign

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 02:12 PM

It's vague because even the most borderline of NHL defensemen can make outlet passes often enough.  If it's a skill you're looking for to tell yourself that a defenseman is good, you'll be able to conclude that any defenseman you want is good.  I'm sure I could find just as many nice outlet passes from Peter Harold than you can from Larsson. 

 

Otherwise, he isn't particularly fast, he's not physical, he doesn't have a shot that's anything special, he's not the smoothest skater.  What's left?

 

wtv you said in this discussion is precisely what i'm thinking... All we can hope from Larsson is that he become crazy smart. It will be his head, and the coaches are not helping his head right now. He'll have to be confident.

 

Look at all great dmen around the league and what their strength are... they had that skills all along it was only a matter of adjusting that strength to the big league.

 

for example... last year Norris winner Subban... you think he was slow, not aggressive and had an average shot in juniors or in his first years in the NHL ? no. it was already all there he just had to work on his work ethic and be A LOT smarter than he was.

 

edit : now cause i know this will happen cause it's happening all the time... don't argue with me here focusing strictly on one little thing i said about Subban going on and on about it ignoring the whole point. Subban was simply an example. 


Edited by SterioDesign, 16 October 2013 - 02:14 PM.

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#146 ATLL765

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 02:18 PM

wtv you said in this discussion is precisely what i'm thinking... All we can hope from Larsson is that he become crazy smart. It will be his head, and the coaches are not helping his head right now. He'll have to be confident.

 

Look at all great dmen around the league and what their strength are... they had that skills all along it was only a matter of adjusting that strength to the big league.

 

for example... last year Norris winner Subban... you think he was slow, not aggressive and had an average shot in juniors or in his first years in the NHL ? no. it was already all there he just had to work on his work ethic and be A LOT smarter than he was.

 

edit : now cause i know this will happen cause it's happening all the time... don't argue with me here focusing strictly on one little thing i said about Subban going on and on about it ignoring the whole point. Subban was simply an example. 

Right, but you can't use anecdotal evidence to prove something then say not to call you out on it.


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#147 Triumph

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 02:27 PM

Subban might be the best defenseman in the league.  That's why using him as an example is terrible.  It'd be like in 1984 being like 'Well, Ray Bourque blah blah blah'.  I don't think Larsson will reach this level, but Subban is playing at an HOF-level.


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#148 SterioDesign

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 02:34 PM

Subban might be the best defenseman in the league.  That's why using him as an example is terrible.  It'd be like in 1984 being like 'Well, Ray Bourque blah blah blah'.  I don't think Larsson will reach this level, but Subban is playing at an HOF-level.

 

well well... just as i made a point pretty clear not to focus on what i said about that one guy and just take the general meaning of what i said... guess who comes out and do exactly what i said not to do... *clap clap*


Edited by SterioDesign, 16 October 2013 - 02:35 PM.

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#149 ATLL765

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 02:36 PM

well well... just as i made a point pretty clear not to focus on what i said about that one guy and just take the general meaning of what i said... guess who comes out and do exactly what i said not to do... *clap clap*

Look, you basically invited it by using that example. You can't provide the most lopsided example ever by using someone who has been playing fantastically and then say well, he's not better than the best, so he blows.


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#150 Devil Dan 56

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 02:37 PM

well well... just as i made a point pretty clear not to focus on what i said about that one guy and just take the general meaning of what i said... guess who comes out and do exactly what i said not to do... *clap clap*

 

I don't understand why you can use players as examples, but no one is allowed to point out that those examples make no damn sense.

 

Larsson has great vision, passing, and an ability to remain calm on the ice. He can log big minutes. You seem to not believe that a stable defenseman is a good thing if he isn't filling a certain collection of traits that you consider elite.


Edited by Devil Dan 56, 16 October 2013 - 02:43 PM.

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#151 SterioDesign

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 02:44 PM

I don't understand why you can use players as examples, but no one is allowed to point out that those examples make no damn sense.

 

It's not making "no damn sense". Player A came in the league with a certain skills who made him the player he is today.

 

Name me one current Dman that one of his strength/skill was not there at all when he got in the league. Other than experience and stuff like that.


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#152 Triumph

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 02:44 PM

well well... just as i made a point pretty clear not to focus on what i said about that one guy and just take the general meaning of what i said... guess who comes out and do exactly what i said not to do... *clap clap*

 

You're not understanding what you're doing rhetorically.  When you compare someone to P.K. Subban, you are creating a false dichotomy - either a player's as good as P.K. Subban, which, great, awesome, or he isn't.  Now you've put Adam Larsson into the 'isn't as good as P.K. Subban' category.  The problem with your argument is that the 'not as good as P.K. Subban' category includes just about every defenseman in the NHL, besides Doughty, Karlsson, Chara, Letang, Weber, Ekman-Larsson and a few others I am forgetting here.  It is not a problem if Adam Larsson doesn't become that good, nor is it a wasted pick, and Daniel, who can't evaluate breakout passes and calls Larsson a 'bust' both on here and on twitter, isn't really saying anything of substance.  There are guys who play big minutes in the NHL who aren't as good as those guys, but who are still pretty darn good and worth having on a team.


Edited by Triumph, 16 October 2013 - 02:44 PM.

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#153 SterioDesign

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 02:44 PM

Look, you basically invited it by using that example. You can't provide the most lopsided example ever by using someone who has been playing fantastically and then say well, he's not better than the best, so he blows.

 

Never said he blows and I really dont think Subban is the best Dman in the league i'd put quite a few dmen ahead of him


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#154 SterioDesign

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 02:46 PM

un-fvcking-real... just when i say "don't nitpick the player i'm using cause there's no perfect comparison" thats all you guys do. 


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#155 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 02:48 PM

well well... just as i made a point pretty clear not to focus on what i said about that one guy and just take the general meaning of what i said... guess who comes out and do exactly what i said not to do... *clap clap*

 

Ever think that maybe you're just really REALLY bad at trying to make points re: most things Devils?  It always the same with you...you try to make a point in the worst way possible (usually with extreme over-the-top examples, like what you just did), people dare to pick your statements apart, then it's everyone else's fault for not understanding what you're trying to go for.      


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#156 Triumph

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 02:51 PM

un-fvcking-real... just when i say "don't nitpick the player i'm using cause there's no perfect comparison" thats all you guys do. 

 

Write better.  Your point is that 'Adam Larsson doesn't look like an elite defenseman'.  No one is really disagreeing with that right now.  The question is, does that mean he's going to be a horrible player?  No - he might be quite a good player even so.


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#157 Devil Dan 56

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 02:55 PM

un-fvcking-real... just when i say "don't nitpick the player i'm using cause there's no perfect comparison" thats all you guys do. 

 

Maybe you should not use players as examples if no one else is allowed to point out that they don't work. You seem to have a select mold of what you think a defenseman should be. It seems to be all or nothing with you. If you have a point to make, why don't you just make it without all the rules of how people are allowed to respond?


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#158 SterioDesign

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 02:56 PM

Write better.  Your point is that 'Adam Larsson doesn't look like an elite defenseman'.  No one is really disagreeing with that right now.  The question is, does that mean he's going to be a horrible player?  No - he might be quite a good player even so.

 

READ BETTER! thats not even my point jesus christ. Not even close.

 

Name me one very good defence that his major skills/strength was not there when he got in the league and suddenly became his bread and butter. THAT'S what i meant. 

 

Whats so damn hard to understand? Larsson right now is NOT fast, NOT a leader kind of guy, NOT really aggressive, DOESNT have a canon or precise shot, DON'T show any passion.

 

Now those are the "stock" skills that could help you and that you have it or you don't. You don't get any of those out of the blues or after 5-6 years in the league. Guys who have those skills had them before coming in the league.

 

Now his passing, vision, hockey IQ is something that could get better with experience and THATS the only thing we can bank on and hope for. 

 

So whats so damn hard to understand when we're saying that it's hard to see him becoming a top dman when he's lacking in those skills that IMO you really need and that it's not something you can improve "that much".

 

Top and complete players are players with quite a few of those skills an if they lack one, the other over average skills are usually compensating for it.


Edited by SterioDesign, 16 October 2013 - 03:05 PM.

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#159 Daniel

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 03:00 PM

 It is not a problem if Adam Larsson doesn't become that good, nor is it a wasted pick, and Daniel, who can't evaluate breakout passes and calls Larsson a 'bust' both on here and on twitter, isn't really saying anything of substance.

 

I think I made it clear that "bust" was an unfair description on my part.  And on twitter, I asked Pronman if he thought Larsson could be called a bust.  He said no, but there was reason to be concerned.

 

Re the breakout passes, if you would like to show me lots of examples of breakout passes that Larsson has made during his Devils tenure that a decently skilled defenseman can't make with some degree of regularity, then fine.  Thus far, I've seen the highlights from the WJC, which don't tell anyone all that much.  And again, if that's all he does particularly well, it's a bit of a disappointment, is all.  A player we hoped would anchor the defense for the foreseeable future ought to have more to his game.

 

Bottom line, I've asked countless times for people to tell me exactly what Larsson does or what he has in his toolbox that supports the hype he's gotten.  All I've gotten in response are "breakout passes" and "he's only 20". 


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#160 Triumph

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 03:03 PM

READ BETTER! thats not even my point jesus christ. Not even close.

 

Name me one very good defence that his major skills/strength was not there when he got in the league and suddenly became his bread and butter. THAT'S what i meant. 

 

Sure thing.  Sheldon Souray scored 23 goals in 152 WHL games.  He followed that up with 9 goals in his first 4 pro seasons.  He's scored 102 NHL goals since then.  I don't think anyone associated with the Devils ever suspected that he would become a PP1 option with his shot.

 

Zdeno Chara scored 3 goals in his first WHL season.  He scored 4 goals in his first pro season.  It took him until his Y23 season to score a significant number of points, and he, like Souray, has been a PP1 option for a decade.


Edited by Triumph, 16 October 2013 - 03:03 PM.

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