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#1321 Triumph

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 11:20 PM

I have a feeling he is going to go with Marty. After both goalies had solid games I can't see him not alternating.

 

I agree - just like after Schneider stole a game in LA, he alternated which ass cheek he would favor on the bench while Brodeur got 3 straight.


Edited by Triumph, 23 March 2014 - 11:20 PM.

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#1322 '7'

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 11:26 PM

When has he blamed the defense and it wasn't actually warranted?

 

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#1323 devilsrule33

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 11:37 PM

I agree - just like after Schneider stole a game in LA, he alternated which ass cheek he would favor on the bench while Brodeur got 3 straight.

 

This is why people that talk about wins and losses being the reason Brodeur got more games don't understand why some people are still furious with the goalie situation. There have clearly been different rules for both goalies all season.

 

Schneider plays the best game a goalie has played all year to that point and still to this date against the Kings. The Devils escape with a win in a game they had no business winning. Two nights later Brodeur gets a game, and they lose. He gets the next game, and they lose. He gets the game after and they lose. Schneider finally gets another game 8 days later after the LA gem, and wins. He responds by shutting out the Sabres the next game. Of course Brodeur gets his Montreal home game after that.

 

It was somewhere during that time that Schneider showed his frustration, and he had every right to be. Deboer said he would be disappointed if he wasn't upset, but it made no sense that Cory wasn't given a game sooner.

 

If Brodeur does get the next game, well then this is why Tri says "You're also fine with missing the playoffs, as apparently the entire Devils organization is" or as Sundstrom says, "different strokes for different folks". Because it will be very clear that this season was about making sure Brodeur was never going to be the backup and getting him as many games as possible regardless of who is better.


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#1324 Neb00rs

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 10:34 AM

This is why people that talk about wins and losses being the reason Brodeur got more games don't understand why some people are still furious with the goalie situation. There have clearly been different rules for both goalies all season.

 

I may be wrong but I don't think anyone talks solely about wins and losses as to why Marty played a lot. It was just about going with the hot hand. The Devils were struggling, whoever the team happened to win with was going to get the next game. Cory has still played more games btw. When Cory wasn't winning he didn't play as much because Marty was playing well. Most people believe Cory should play more though, as do I.

 

As far as the team making it a priority to play Brodeur as many games as possible I don't see how that's true at all. It's nonsense imo. Marty didn't play for what? Six games after Yankee Stadium. When Cory wasn't getting the job done we switched over.

 

The complaining over the Marty situation has just gone out of control. Marty playing 40 games has nothing to do with the Devils not making the playoffs. Who knows what would have happened had he started the games that Marty lost (or won even). This team has only allowed 187 goals, that's 11th in the NHL and perfectly sufficient to make the playoffs. But the team has only scored 175 goals. If they had scored 195 then we'd probably be in the playoffs right now.


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#1325 DH26

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 11:01 AM

I may be wrong but I don't think anyone talks solely about wins and losses as to why Marty played a lot. It was just about going with the hot hand. The Devils were struggling, whoever the team happened to win with was going to get the next game. Cory has still played more games btw. When Cory wasn't winning he didn't play as much because Marty was playing well. Most people believe Cory should play more though, as do I.

 

As far as the team making it a priority to play Brodeur as many games as possible I don't see how that's true at all. It's nonsense imo. Marty didn't play for what? Six games after Yankee Stadium. When Cory wasn't getting the job done we switched over.

 

The complaining over the Marty situation has just gone out of control. Marty playing 40 games has nothing to do with the Devils not making the playoffs. Who knows what would have happened had he started the games that Marty lost (or won even). This team has only allowed 187 goals, that's 11th in the NHL and perfectly sufficient to make the playoffs. But the team has only scored 175 goals. If they had scored 195 then we'd probably be in the playoffs right now.

 

Playing one of the best goalies for 60 games instead of 40 would make no difference to you? It's all about giving you a better chance to win and when you can play CS instead of unarguably one of the bottom 5 worst goalies in the league is a huge difference. We probably have as big a difference between good and bad goalie as anyone in the league


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#1326 Neb00rs

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 11:07 AM

Playing one of the best goalies for 60 games instead of 40 would make no difference to you? It's all about giving you a better chance to win and when you can play CS instead of unarguably one of the bottom 5 worst goalies in the league is a huge difference. We probably have as big a difference between good and bad goalie as anyone in the league

 

I don't know what difference it would have made. All I know is that playing the better goalie (Schneider) hasn't guaranteed us winning games this season anymore than playing Marty.


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#1327 devilsrule33

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 11:13 AM

I may be wrong but I don't think anyone talks solely about wins and losses as to why Marty played a lot. It was just about going with the hot hand. The Devils were struggling, whoever the team happened to win with was going to get the next game. Cory has still played more games btw. When Cory wasn't winning he didn't play as much because Marty was playing well. Most people believe Cory should play more though, as do I.

 

As far as the team making it a priority to play Brodeur as many games as possible I don't see how that's true at all. It's nonsense imo. Marty didn't play for what? Six games after Yankee Stadium. When Cory wasn't getting the job done we switched over.

 

The complaining over the Marty situation has just gone out of control. Marty playing 40 games has nothing to do with the Devils not making the playoffs. Who knows what would have happened had he started the games that Marty lost (or won even). This team has only allowed 187 goals, that's 11th in the NHL and perfectly sufficient to make the playoffs. But the team has only scored 175 goals. If they had scored 195 then we'd probably be in the playoffs right now.

 

The decision was very easy to go with Cory for an extended stretch after Brodeur's game aaginst the Rangers. For one, it was almost a bit embarrassing for Deboer. He went all sentimental and gave Marty a shot coming off of Schneider winning two straight games and playing exceptional in both (56 saves on 58 shots), and that was after a (37/38) loss to Colorado. Brodeur had been coming off a loss in a very poor game against the Coyotes. But just like the example that you quoted of me in your post, we had to switch the script, and give Brodeur a start because it is Brodeur. He got owned, so the obvious choice was to continue to ride Schneider.

 

All year, there have been different rules for Brodeur and Cory. Simple as that. No one is saying for sure if the Devils would be a playoff team if Cory got 60 games and Brodeur got 22, but there is a very good chance (almost guaranteed) they would be a lot better off.


Edited by devilsrule33, 24 March 2014 - 11:13 AM.

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#1328 sundstrom

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 11:13 AM

I don't know what difference it would have made. All I know is that playing the better goalie (Schneider) hasn't guaranteed us winning games this season anymore than playing Marty.

 

ask yourself this - how many games has cory been the reason for the loss - i mean really the reason? you know - the devils score 3+ goals and cory lets in some week ones and doesn't play well? I can think of the recent Florida game. That's it.

 

off the top of my head, i have the islanders game early in the season, the edmonton game on the road, and the columbus game on the road where brodeur was the sole reason the devils did not come away with two points - and that's just off the top of my head.

 

this team was on the razor's edge of making the playoffs to begin with - to do it, they couldn't sabotage themselves and lots had to go right. They have the best PK in the league. They have a top five PP (unfortunately they don't get enough chances to go on it). They have CS who is a top 5 goaltender in the league. so what went wrong? shootouts (i'll say they gave up 4 extra points because of them) and marty (gave away 8-10 points). shootouts - can't do anything about it. perhaps i'll fault pdb very very little because he never let zidlicky go even though he proved in practice to be good at it but whatever. but marty played in games he should not have played in. he should have gotten 30 games max this year and they should have been against lesser teams.


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#1329 Triumph

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 11:27 AM

Montreal back in December where Schneider let in that weak goal late - Devils lost in OT there.  That's another one.


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#1330 Neb00rs

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 12:42 PM

If you look at the year so far it's gone like this:

 

October:

 

Cory started 6 games. He went 1-3-2 with a .915 save pct.

Marty started 6 games. He went 2-2-2 with an .879 save pct.

 

Cory probably should have taken over at this point but towards the end of the month he lost 5 straight games, breaking well under .900 for that stretch. He had the opportunity but things didn't click.

 

Nov.

 

Cory started 6 games. He went 3-2-1 with a .941 save pct. 

Marty started 9 games and went 5-4-0 with a .932 save pct

 

 

Both are in the same boat but Marty had a stretch of 5 straight wins with a .952 save pct. and 2 straight shutouts. He was the hotter hand.

 

Dec.

 

Cory started 6 games and went 1-3-2 with an .892 save pct.

Marty started 8 games and went 5-2-1 with a .902 save pct.

 

At this point Cory hasn't won the job outright at all. Not only that but Marty has another stretch of 9 points earned out of 10 with probably like a .940

Meanwhile Cory has a stretch a 5 straight losses (2 in OT) and in 4 of those games he is under .875 (the other one he is .900)

 

NO reason to give him the sole starting job at this point

 

Jan.

 

Marty is horrible in January. I mean BAD. He starts 5 games and posts a 1-3-1 record with an .862 save pct.

So right so we lean on Cory who starts 10 games and posts a 5-2-3 record with a .942 save pct

 

So this month Cory has clearly been better than Marty and he gets twice the starts.

 

Feb. 

 

Again Marty has been terrible and he plays NO games.

Cory goes 2-1-1 with a .932 save pct.

 

Seems fair to me. Deboer is happy to name Cory the full starter but then Cory completely screws up...

 

Mar. 

 

Cory goes 2-3-0 with an .836 save pct. At one point he doesn't cross .895 for 5 straight games (with a 3 game stretch in their of .803).

Marty goes 4-3-0 with a .913 save pct.

 

Hell, Marty probably should get the net at this point. Nonetheless the season has been totally fair. In your guys' fervent hate of Marty you can't see that. When Marty was bad he didn't play, when he was good he alternated with Cory. When Cory was abysmal he got a few more starts.

 

Saying something like "How many losses can you name that were actually Cory's fault" is a ridiculous statement that displays a a reach to find anything to make Cory look out to be the one who has been wronged. Not only has Cory deservedly lost the position of sole starter fairly but he has still started more games than Marty. Cory was just losing games at one point and when Marty played we one, if you are DeBoer you have to make a move there.

 

Again, despite all the straw man, I don't think Marty is better than Cory but am not opposed to him starting half the games at this point after everything has gone the way it has.

 

By the way, in losses this year, Cory has an .894 save percentage. Clearly he is partially responsible just as Marty is for his losses.


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#1331 Devils731

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 12:44 PM

Not to give you work, but what are Marty and Corey's save percentage in wins and losses? Just want to put the last Corey number in context, since I think that number may actually be decent when we are only looking at losses.

Edited by Devils731, 24 March 2014 - 12:45 PM.

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#1332 Neb00rs

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 12:56 PM

.949 for Cory

.894

 

.930 for Marty

.875 losses

 

I was making the point that Cory's is higher in losses though but still not high enough to have him escape blame.


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#1333 Triumph

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 01:12 PM

.949 for Cory

.894

 

.930 for Marty

.875 losses

 

I was making the point that Cory's is higher in losses though but still not high enough to have him escape blame.

 

That's only because in his last 3 losses his SV% has been very low.  Before that, Schneider's SV% in losses was equal to Brodeur's SV% in all games.  Which just about says it all right there.

 

The point is, these two never should've been on an equal footing.  Brodeur's been bad for 3 years.  Schneider's been great.  Brodeur has been given all the leash in the world and while he's had some good starts lately we know that's a mirage because we have seen the last 3 years - he's not a good goalie, and Schneider is, period, end of story.


Edited by Triumph, 24 March 2014 - 01:12 PM.

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#1334 Neb00rs

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 01:37 PM

That's only because in his last 3 losses his SV% has been very low.  Before that, Schneider's SV% in losses was equal to Brodeur's SV% in all games.  Which just about says it all right there.

 

The point is, these two never should've been on an equal footing.  Brodeur's been bad for 3 years.  Schneider's been great.  Brodeur has been given all the leash in the world and while he's had some good starts lately we know that's a mirage because we have seen the last 3 years - he's not a good goalie, and Schneider is, period, end of story.

 

The point, is that as I've laid out, the alternating between the goalies has been justified. The rules never favored Marty or gave special treatment to him. Even if you say he's been given "all the leash in the world" the numbers throughout the year do not point to that as seen above. Cory has not been 'great' in any regard aside from a few periods throughout the year. DeBoer clearly realizes this and has chosen his starting goalie accordingly.  Saying that "Brodeur is bad and Cory is good" proves nothing and really isn't a true simplification. Especially lately.

 

If Marty signs a deal with the Devils this summer and Cory doesn't get one, then I'll begin to get nervous. Then again, if Cory isn't consistent for a good stretch to the end of the season, I don't know that I want to rush into signing him to a long-term deal. As pointed out though, he will possibly be cheaper in this scenario but not by much.

 

 

EDIT: btw I found this stat interesting, per TG:

 

The Devils improved to 6-1-0 this season when dressing seven defensemen. 

Edited by Neb00rs, 24 March 2014 - 01:42 PM.

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#1335 Triumph

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 01:45 PM

The point, is that as I've laid out, the alternating between the goalies has been justified. The rules never favored Marty or gave special treatment to him. Even if you say he's been given "all the leash in the world" the numbers throughout the year do not point to that as seen above. Cory has not been 'great' in any regard aside from a few periods throughout the year. DeBoer clearly realizes this and has chosen his starting goalie accordingly.  Saying that "Brodeur is bad and Cory is good" proves nothing and really isn't a true simplification. Especially lately.

 

Your point is wrong.  You have separated things by months.  Is this how coaches make their decisions?   

 

The rules have absolutely given special treatment to Brodeur, because he has ended up with as many games as Schneider, despite being considerably worse.

 

 

The fact that you think your logic proves that Brodeur should get the net now says it all.  Look at the last 150 games - who is the better goalie, the guy who is posting one of the best SV% of all time or the guy who is posting below average save percentages?  The Devils couldn't win a game for Schneider, Brodeur complained about his playing time, and that's why the Devils are as far out of the race as they are.  The fact that Brodeur is going to end up with 40 games this year is criminal.


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#1336 Devil Dan 56

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 03:02 PM

The problem is that Marty has won 17 games and gotten 38 total points in 35 starts and Cory has won 14 and gotten 37 points in 38 games. It doesn't make sense and it's what screwed up Cory getting the games he should have been getting.

 

The other issue is that whenever Cory had a chance to run away with the job, he'd falter, Marty would falter slightly less, and we'd be at square one again. Hopefully next year this is no longer an issue, and Cory gets the 60 or so games he should be playing with his numbers. Without the recent slide, he's been one of the best in the league.


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#1337 devilsrule33

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 03:24 PM

The problem is that Marty has won 17 games and gotten 38 total points in 35 starts and Cory has won 14 and gotten 37 points in 38 games. It doesn't make sense and it's what screwed up Cory getting the games he should have been getting.

 

The other issue is that whenever Cory had a chance to run away with the job, he'd falter, Marty would falter slightly less, and we'd be at square one again. Hopefully next year this is no longer an issue, and Cory gets the 60 or so games he should be playing with his numbers. Without the recent slide, he's been one of the best in the league.

 

Well, there is also the issue of how often does Cory need to prove himself.  Schneider had a stretch of 14 of 15 games or whatever of not giving up more than 2 goals. That's pretty sensational. He stumpled a bit, but what goalie hasn't? Imagine if every NHL starter's good play was reset after a few poor games. Pick any starter and I'll show you a number of bad games in close proximity to one another. 

 

I'll go with Rask since many think he is a top 3 goalie in the NHL. 

 

Dec 28th: 3 goals on 12 shots. Pulled after 1

Dec 31st: 5 goals on 31 shots. 

Jan 4th: 1 goal on 37 shots

Jan 7th: 5 goals on 20 shots

Jan 9th: 3 goals on 18 shots. Pulled early in the 2nd.

 

He gets the start two days later and has a 26 save shutout.

 

If Cory Schneider had to prove that he wa sbetter than Martin Brodeur continuously all season, he has passed that test easily. Why he has to continuously prove it is a mystery to everyone around the NHL but people in the Devils organization. 


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#1338 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 03:42 PM

Why he has to continuously prove it is a mystery to everyone around the NHL but people in the Devils organization. 

 

That's what I didn't get...Schneider got the "Weeeeeeeeell, I don't know..." rookie treatment, while Brodeur got the old faithful "go-to guy" treatment.  I could understand that mentality 3-4 years ago, but def not now.  Part of why I don't want Marty to come back is that I don't trust PDB (if he's back) not to give him the same status next season.   


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#1339 NJDevs26

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 03:51 PM

If you look at the year so far it's gone like this:

 

October:

 

Cory started 6 games. He went 1-3-2 with a .915 save pct.

Marty started 6 games. He went 2-2-2 with an .879 save pct.

 

Cory probably should have taken over at this point but towards the end of the month he lost 5 straight games, breaking well under .900 for that stretch. He had the opportunity but things didn't click.

 

Nov.

 

Cory started 6 games. He went 3-2-1 with a .941 save pct. 

Marty started 9 games and went 5-4-0 with a .932 save pct

 

 

Both are in the same boat but Marty had a stretch of 5 straight wins with a .952 save pct. and 2 straight shutouts. He was the hotter hand.

 

You're essentially doing the same thing the Devils did this year...valuing wins over the goaltender's actual play in net.  The only month Cory was clearly worse than Marty was in December, after he'd been jerked around toward the end of November.  And after Cory's dominant January and February they started splitting games again before Cory really started spitting the bit.  He never had a chance to get back into a groove with them giving Marty the Isles and Detroit games to pacify him and as an in case he was traded.


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#1340 Neb00rs

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 03:56 PM

Your point is wrong.  You have separated things by months.  Is this how coaches make their decisions?   

 

The rules have absolutely given special treatment to Brodeur, because he has ended up with as many games as Schneider, despite being considerably worse.

 

 

The fact that you think your logic proves that Brodeur should get the net now says it all.  Look at the last 150 games - who is the better goalie, the guy who is posting one of the best SV% of all time or the guy who is posting below average save percentages?  The Devils couldn't win a game for Schneider, Brodeur complained about his playing time, and that's why the Devils are as far out of the race as they are.  The fact that Brodeur is going to end up with 40 games this year is criminal.

 

I think you misunderstood my post. I AM saying that because of what has happened lately, it's not that big of a deal to me that Marty is starting - and I think DeBoer has been fair. Additionally, Cory has been abysmal for stretches, so I don't know why you are kissing his feet. I separated things by months just to lay out a summary of the season as best I could (you should be able to understand that), and demonstrate how both goalies have had pretty equal ups and downs with Cory really dropping the ball when he could have taken over. I also pointed out in that post a couple of streaks that ran cross month - this isn't relevant now except to show how your picking on the 'month' thing is plain ignorant of what was written.

 

The other issue is that whenever Cory had a chance to run away with the job, he'd falter, Marty would falter slightly less, and we'd be at square one again. Hopefully next year this is no longer an issue, and Cory gets the 60 or so games he should be playing with his numbers. Without the recent slide, he's been one of the best in the league.

 

This is in large part, what I've been saying.

 

Well, there is also the issue of how often does Cory need to prove himself.  Schneider had a stretch of 14 of 15 games or whatever of not giving up more than 2 goals. That's pretty sensational. He stumpled a bit, but what goalie hasn't? Imagine if every NHL starter's good play was reset after a few poor games. Pick any starter and I'll show you a number of bad games in close proximity to one another. 

 

I'll go with Rask since many think he is a top 3 goalie in the NHL. 

 

Dec 28th: 3 goals on 12 shots. Pulled after 1

Dec 31st: 5 goals on 31 shots. 

Jan 4th: 1 goal on 37 shots

Jan 7th: 5 goals on 20 shots

Jan 9th: 3 goals on 18 shots. Pulled early in the 2nd.

 

He gets the start two days later and has a 26 save shutout.

 

If Cory Schneider had to prove that he wa sbetter than Martin Brodeur continuously all season, he has passed that test easily. Why he has to continuously prove it is a mystery to everyone around the NHL but people in the Devils organization. 

 

He doesn't need to prove himself. He just needs to really not completely fvck things up. Which he did, for extended stretches of the season. He has played more than a few poor games this season. Still, that doesn't change the fact that when he's been good, he has been real good.


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