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#1341 Devil Dan 56

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 04:22 PM

Well, there is also the issue of how often does Cory need to prove himself.  Schneider had a stretch of 14 of 15 games or whatever of not giving up more than 2 goals. That's pretty sensational. He stumpled a bit, but what goalie hasn't? Imagine if every NHL starter's good play was reset after a few poor games. Pick any starter and I'll show you a number of bad games in close proximity to one another. 

 

I'll go with Rask since many think he is a top 3 goalie in the NHL. 

 

Dec 28th: 3 goals on 12 shots. Pulled after 1

Dec 31st: 5 goals on 31 shots. 

Jan 4th: 1 goal on 37 shots

Jan 7th: 5 goals on 20 shots

Jan 9th: 3 goals on 18 shots. Pulled early in the 2nd.

 

He gets the start two days later and has a 26 save shutout.

 

If Cory Schneider had to prove that he wa sbetter than Martin Brodeur continuously all season, he has passed that test easily. Why he has to continuously prove it is a mystery to everyone around the NHL but people in the Devils organization. 

 

I didn't say I agree with it because I don't. I said at the beginning of the year there needed to be a transition period but by mid-season, Cory absolutely needed to be the guy. And he was. He played 10 of 15 games in January and all 4 in February. If not for his rough March, he'd most likely still be starting at least 3 of every 4.

 

Unfortunately, Deboer looks at wins and "situations" instead of save percentage. The Devils won't be in the playoffs, so I'd like to see Schneider in 8 of the final 10, but I think it'll be more like 5 each.


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#1342 devilsrule33

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 04:37 PM

I didn't say I agree with it because I don't. I said at the beginning of the year there needed to be a transition period but by mid-season, Cory absolutely needed to be the guy. And he was. He played 10 of 15 games in January and all 4 in February. If not for his rough March, he'd most likely still be starting at least 3 of every 4.

 

Unfortunately, Deboer looks at wins and "situations" instead of save percentage. The Devils won't be in the playoffs, so I'd like to see Schneider in 8 of the final 10, but I think it'll be more like 5 each.

 

This is why I brought up the topic again here because Schneider has won the last 2 while Brodeur has lost the last 3, but was very good in his last outing. So, if Brodeur does get the next game, it will be a shift in decision making for Pete.


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#1343 Triumph

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 05:18 PM

This is why I brought up the topic again here because Schneider has won the last 2 while Brodeur has lost the last 3, but was very good in his last outing. So, if Brodeur does get the next game, it will be a shift in decision making for Pete.

 

It's not though.  We saw it in November when Brodeur asked to start against Winnipeg and then lost, then promptly got the next game.  So we know the 'rules', whatever they are, are different for different players.


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#1344 Neb00rs

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 05:46 PM

This is why I brought up the topic again here because Schneider has won the last 2 while Brodeur has lost the last 3, but was very good in his last outing. So, if Brodeur does get the next game, it will be a shift in decision making for Pete.

 

It hasn't been just about wins, but wins have been a large part of it. However, DeBoer has recognized throughout the season who the hot hand is. However, when one goalie completely blew up or had an extended losing streak he would make a change. It's a very simple system and I don't see where all these extrapolations are coming from. 


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#1345 devilsrule33

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 05:51 PM

It's not though.  We saw it in November when Brodeur asked to start against Winnipeg and then lost, then promptly got the next game.  So we know the 'rules', whatever they are, are different for different players.

 

You know, in all my posts talking about the goalie situation crazyness of the coaching decisions, I totally forgot...

 

 

We had a conversation with him,” DeBoer said. “He had no effects from it. He feels good and wanted the game, so that was good enough for me.” - See more at: http://blogs.northje...h.Vqhp242K.dpuf

 

But I did remember the situation of Brodeur starting for 3 losses in a row after Schneider's sensational game against the Kings and Cory calling it "groundhog day" I guess it has been different all year for Brodeur and Cory.

 

What a brutal quote by Pete. If Cory wasn't already steaming, I bet that quote set him off.


Edited by devilsrule33, 24 March 2014 - 05:52 PM.

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#1346 Neb00rs

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 11:30 PM

You know, in all my posts talking about the goalie situation crazyness of the coaching decisions, I totally forgot...

 

 

But I did remember the situation of Brodeur starting for 3 losses in a row after Schneider's sensational game against the Kings and Cory calling it "groundhog day" I guess it has been different all year for Brodeur and Cory.

 

What a brutal quote by Pete. If Cory wasn't already steaming, I bet that quote set him off.

 

Oh please, this is desperate and you're way too excited over something that doesn't really mean much at all. Firstly, this hardly demonstrates "asking for the game" as much as it does confirming that he's not injured. Secondly,  Marty and Cory didn't have much different save pcts. at that point - the difference is that Cory was coming off 2 wins in 10 games and Marty was recently coming off 7 wins in 8. Marty had a .948 save percentage in his previous 8 games going into Winnipeg.  For the record, Cory had a .936 in his previous 8. Aside from all that (and I'm sure you'll bypass all these facts) it was Cory's first month or so on the team and Marty still retained a right make starts.

 

You guys can high five each other all you want, but your argument is growing weaker. You make the provocative claim the 'Marty gets a different set of rules'. So then I wait for proof of any sort, I even dig through the season myself but only find that the opposite is true. Jan/Feb debunks your whole theory (aside from all the other things that make it wrong such as the part above). This is such a desperate reach it's comical, no offense. Like, this is your evidence of Marty favoritism. Geez, I'd hate to see what you would call actual Marty favoritism. You actually picked an example that is not only unclear but actually might prove against your point.


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#1347 Triumph

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 12:57 AM

Oh please, this is desperate and you're way too excited over something that doesn't really mean much at all. Firstly, this hardly demonstrates "asking for the game" as much as it does confirming that he's not injured. Secondly,  Marty and Cory didn't have much different save pcts. at that point - the difference is that Cory was coming off 2 wins in 10 games and Marty was recently coming off 7 wins in 8. Marty had a .948 save percentage in his previous 8 games going into Winnipeg.  For the record, Cory had a .936 in his previous 8. Aside from all that (and I'm sure you'll bypass all these facts) it was Cory's first month or so on the team and Marty still retained a right make starts.

 

You guys can high five each other all you want, but your argument is growing weaker. You make the provocative claim the 'Marty gets a different set of rules'. So then I wait for proof of any sort, I even dig through the season myself but only find that the opposite is true. Jan/Feb debunks your whole theory (aside from all the other things that make it wrong such as the part above). This is such a desperate reach it's comical, no offense. Like, this is your evidence of Marty favoritism. Geez, I'd hate to see what you would call actual Marty favoritism. You actually picked an example that is not only unclear but actually might prove against your point.

 

What save percentage did Schneider have in the 95 games before that and what was Brodeur's?  The problem is that Schneider and Brodeur were treated as equals coming into the season.  That would be fine if we had no idea about these two players and they'd never played hockey before.  They have and we did know.  Saying they are treated as equals is the mistake because they are not equals - Schneider is significantly better.  

 

Brodeur has different rules no question - show me where Cory got 3 straight losses to play around with.  Brodeur was kept in games so he could play in the outdoor game, which he promptly vomited up, and DeBoer realized what was going on and finally benched him for a month.  He's been better in these last few games here, which is great, because not only do we need him for the playoff push, but we need him to leave and so someone has to be fooled into thinking he's good enough to play 30-40 games for them next year.


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#1348 devilsrule33

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 07:38 AM

What save percentage did Schneider have in the 95 games before that and what was Brodeur's?  The problem is that Schneider and Brodeur were treated as equals coming into the season.  That would be fine if we had no idea about these two players and they'd never played hockey before.  They have and we did know.  Saying they are treated as equals is the mistake because they are not equals - Schneider is significantly better.  

 

Brodeur has different rules no question - show me where Cory got 3 straight losses to play around with.  Brodeur was kept in games so he could play in the outdoor game, which he promptly vomited up, and DeBoer realized what was going on and finally benched him for a month.  He's been better in these last few games here, which is great, because not only do we need him for the playoff push, but we need him to leave and so someone has to be fooled into thinking he's good enough to play 30-40 games for them next year.

*High Five*


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#1349 HellOnICE

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 07:41 AM

I want to throw an idea out there...

 

I am a pro-Cory guy by the way, but for the sake of argument.

 

Yes, Cory's save percentage is much better than MARty's over the same time period. No question. However, we do NOT know how Cory's play might change when he's given the #1 job. He's never been a true number 1, with a little more pressure on Luongo and Brodeur than him in both places. It's different.

 

Cory's still the guy, but we don't know how Cory will stand up to 60-65 games until next season.


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#1350 NJDevs4978

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 08:17 AM

I want to throw an idea out there...

I am a pro-Cory guy by the way, but for the sake of argument.

Yes, Cory's save percentage is much better than MARty's over the same time period. No question. However, we do NOT know how Cory's play might change when he's given the #1 job. He's never been a true number 1, with a little more pressure on Luongo and Brodeur than him in both places. It's different.

Cory's still the guy, but we don't know how Cory will stand up to 60-65 games until next season.


Which is exactly why it was vital to give him 50+ this season. Cause either you're signing him long term with a huge question mark, or he gets to FA.
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#1351 Neb00rs

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 08:28 AM

What save percentage did Schneider have in the 95 games before that and what was Brodeur's?  The problem is that Schneider and Brodeur were treated as equals coming into the season.  That would be fine if we had no idea about these two players and they'd never played hockey before.  They have and we did know.  Saying they are treated as equals is the mistake because they are not equals - Schneider is significantly better.  

 

Brodeur has different rules no question - show me where Cory got 3 straight losses to play around with.  Brodeur was kept in games so he could play in the outdoor game, which he promptly vomited up, and DeBoer realized what was going on and finally benched him for a month.  He's been better in these last few games here, which is great, because not only do we need him for the playoff push, but we need him to leave and so someone has to be fooled into thinking he's good enough to play 30-40 games for them next year.

 

Okay, so you want to make the argument that Cory should be the sole starter because of his past numbers (even though he has never really been a full starter before so we don't have numbers there), I mean at least it's a better argument. Marty has 20 years of starting with 17 or so high-quality seasons. That doesn't make sense to me that that should mean anything, neither do. Cory's past numbers mean that we are willing to trade the no. 9 draft pick for him. With Cory having never played more than 33 games in a season, he still was and is required to earn the full-time position. Something he bungled numerous times. Though it looks like he might finally be getting his groove back now.

 

As far as 'straight losses to play around with' I don't see one instance where Marty lost 3 straight games this season and still got to play. And in that time Cory had more numerous and prolonged streaks of losses in which his save pct. too, was not good.


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#1352 '7'

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 08:38 AM

As long as the Devils remain mathematically alive for the playoffs Schneider must play. Schneider must start vs. the Coyotes and Islanders. He gives us the best chance to win

 

I know this is a heavy accusation to levy against someone, but it's really looking like Lou and Deboer got together and essentially decided to punt the season just to placate Brodeur. I refuse to believe both of them could be so stupid. Lou at one point would never deal with antics like this, and yet here they are massaging the situation and contently losing games to appease Brodeurs big fat ego and AHL caliber goaltending. As soon as MacLean bitched he was on the next plane to San Jose. Claude Julien fired for no known reason. Mogilny offered a bit more than Lou think he's worth in Toronto? Gone.

 

Martin Brodeur is allowed to suck for two years with no repercussions. He's essentially allowed to run the show.

 

Lou let this go on. A happy Brodeur is more important to him than playoff games. The Devils have shown this. (and Brodeur still isn't happy)

 

It's time for Lou to go. He allowed the Devils to lose this year. He could've stepped in and stopped this but didn't.


Edited by '7', 25 March 2014 - 08:41 AM.

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#1353 devilsrule33

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 08:54 AM

Okay, so you want to make the argument that Cory should be the sole starter because of his past numbers (even though he has never really been a full starter before so we don't have numbers there), I mean at least it's a better argument. Marty has 20 years of starting with 17 or so high-quality seasons. That doesn't make sense to me that that should mean anything, neither do. Cory's past numbers mean that we are willing to trade the no. 9 draft pick for him. With Cory having never played more than 33 games in a season, he still was and is required to earn the full-time position. Something he bungled numerous times. Though it looks like he might finally be getting his groove back now.

 

As far as 'straight losses to play around with' I don't see one instance where Marty lost 3 straight games this season and still got to play. And in that time Cory had more numerous and prolonged streaks of losses in which his save pct. too, was not good.

 

 

The funny thing is as bad or as average as the season you think Schneider is having, the save percentage (even after the atrocious slide) is stronger than 12 of Brodeur's seasons and the GAA is better than 16 of Brodeur's seasons. Since 1998, Brodeur has only had a GAA better than Cory's twice ( in 03 and 04). That's with Cory playing a ton of games against the best teams in the league and no Hall of Fame defense in front of him like Marty.

 

He's not having a bad season at all. We could be talking about this split with Brodeur in 99 or 2000, but in 2014?


Edited by devilsrule33, 25 March 2014 - 09:03 AM.

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#1354 Neb00rs

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 09:26 AM

The funny thing is as bad or as average as the season you think Schneider is having, the save percentage (even after the atrocious slide) is stronger than 12 of Brodeur's seasons and the GAA is better than 16 of Brodeur's seasons. Since 1998, Brodeur has only had a GAA better than Cory's twice ( in 03 and 04). That's with Cory playing a ton of games against the best teams in the league and no Hall of Fame defense in front of him like Marty.

 

He's not having a bad season at all. We could be talking about this split with Brodeur in 99 or 2000, but in 2014?

 

Sounds like you would have traded Marty in 1999. That displays a complete inability to assess the intangibles that special players can have which make them great.

 

Nonetheless, I am not saying Cory is having a bad season, I am not ready to label his season at all. All I said is that Cory has had some extended periods of poor play during the season, especially when he got the chance to be the outright starter. The point I have been making (it seems there is a desire to turn this argument into Marty vs. Cory when that's not the point) is that the alternating between the goalies has been generally fair and even if Cory is the much better goalie, it's not such a big deal that Marty has started the games he has (I have said this verbatim over and over again).

 

You guys have such an anti-Marty fervor (I am not sure yet if I sympathize with this) that it seems to you that everyone else is arguing that Marty still should be the starter and that Cory is not that good. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I hope Cory starts 70 games next year.


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#1355 Marshall

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 09:50 AM

The funny thing is as bad or as average as the season you think Schneider is having, the save percentage (even after the atrocious slide) is stronger than 12 of Brodeur's seasons and the GAA is better than 16 of Brodeur's seasons. Since 1998, Brodeur has only had a GAA better than Cory's twice ( in 03 and 04). That's with Cory playing a ton of games against the best teams in the league and no Hall of Fame defense in front of him like Marty.

 

He's not having a bad season at all. We could be talking about this split with Brodeur in 99 or 2000, but in 2014?

 

You are comparing different eras. The average save percentage was much lower during the period you're referencing. GAA is a horsesh!t stat for goalies and should only be used as a team statistic. Would Schneider have been elite in the 90s and early 00s? Hell yeah he'd be. Steve Bernier would also have been an elite forward in the 80s, Marty would've been legendary in the 70s...you can't take players out of their context and comparing them vs other generations and eras. 

 

Marty's greatness is his durability, being perfect for the Devils and being above average for such a long period. 


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#1356 devilsrule33

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 10:01 AM

You are comparing different eras. The average save percentage was much lower during the period you're referencing. GAA is a horsesh!t stat for goalies and should only be used as a team statistic. Would Schneider have been elite in the 90s and early 00s? Hell yeah he'd be. Steve Bernier would also have been an elite forward in the 80s, Marty would've been legendary in the 70s...you can't take players out of their context and comparing them vs other generations and eras. 

 

Marty's greatness is his durability, being perfect for the Devils and being above average for such a long period. 

 

Of course it is a horse sh!t statistic, but the Devils have had such great team defense for Marty's entire career playing behind so many great defensemen and defensive-minded coaches, I thought it was relevant enough. It's a team-stat and the team was a lot better throughout Brodeur's career than it is today, no?  Not like lead-wide scoring has changed much since 1998. These aren't really different eras besides 05-07 where there was so many power plays each night that led to the only real spike in scoring. I guess I'd have to see the even strength save percentage's to compare. But late 90s and early to mid 2000s isn't a whole lot different. If ther eis adjusted save percentage it be interesting to see it.

 

Save Percentage - 20041.Dwayne Roloson-MIN.933 Miikka Kiprusoff-CGY.9333.Roberto Luongo-FLA.930 4.Vesa Toskala-SJS.930 5.Andrew Raycroft-BOS.926 6.David Aebischer-COL.924 7.Evgeni Nabokov-SJS.921 8.Manny Legace-DET.919 9.Jose Theodore-MTL.919 10.Martin Gerber-MDA.918 11.Jussi Markkanen-2TM.918 12.Marc Denis-CBJ.918 13.Ed Belfour*-TOR.918 14.Martin Prusek-OTT.917 15.Martin Brodeur-NJD.916 16.Robert Esche-PHI.915 17.Manny Fernandez-MIN.915 18.Dan Cloutier-VAN.914 19.Jean-Sebastien Giguere-MDA.914 20.Martin Biron-BUF.913

 

Save Percentage - 2014 1.Josh Harding-MIN.933 2.Tuukka Rask-BOS.930 3.Ben Scrivens-2TM.929 4.Anton Khudobin-CAR.927 5.Ben Bishop-TBL.926 6.Semyon Varlamov-COL.925 7.Jonathan Bernier-TOR.925 8.Carey Price-MTL.924 9.Ryan Miller-2TM.922 10.Darcy Kuemper-MIN.922 11.Brian Elliott-STL.921 12.Al Montoya-WPG.921 13.Jaroslav Halak-2TM.920 14.Sergei Bobrovsky-CBJ.919 15.Corey Crawford-CHI.919 16.Jonathan Quick-LAK.918 17.Henrik Lundqvist-NYR.918 18.Roberto Luongo-2TM.917 19.Kari Lehtonen-DAL.917 20.Steve Mason-PHI.916

 

My point still stands that Schneider this year has not been much better or worse than Brodeur 10-15 years ago. 


Edited by devilsrule33, 25 March 2014 - 10:05 AM.

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#1357 Triumph

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 11:31 AM

Sounds like you would have traded Marty in 1999. That displays a complete inability to assess the intangibles that special players can have which make them great.

 

Nonetheless, I am not saying Cory is having a bad season, I am not ready to label his season at all. All I said is that Cory has had some extended periods of poor play during the season, especially when he got the chance to be the outright starter. The point I have been making (it seems there is a desire to turn this argument into Marty vs. Cory when that's not the point) is that the alternating between the goalies has been generally fair and even if Cory is the much better goalie, it's not such a big deal that Marty has started the games he has (I have said this verbatim over and over again).

 

You guys have such an anti-Marty fervor (I am not sure yet if I sympathize with this) that it seems to you that everyone else is arguing that Marty still should be the starter and that Cory is not that good. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I hope Cory starts 70 games next year.

 

It is a big deal.  For one, I don't think Schneider is a true talent .915 goalie.  I think he's better than that.

 

Cory has had some extended periods of poor play.  He has also had extended periods of superlative play.  For that, he's rewarded with the bench, once again.  Anyone who doesn't see this is blind - Brodeur should've started maybe 20 games this year, instead he has started 35 and will probably get to 40.  That means the Devils have given up 6 more goals than they should've and that's if you assume these save percentages represent true talents, which I do not.  The gap was as wide as .5 goals against, which would mean 10 goals.  You're prepared to give up 10 more goals a season in the interest of 'fairness'?  


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#1358 DJ Eco

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 11:41 AM

It is a big deal.  For one, I don't think Schneider is a true talent .915 goalie.  I think he's better than that.

 

Cory has had some extended periods of poor play.  He has also had extended periods of superlative play. 

 

Important to note that he was playing like a stud right up until the Olympic break and only after the THREE WEEK LAYOFF was when his play dipped (and seems to have picked up again). The circumstances of having 3 weeks off are pretty rare so it doesn't worry me one bit. I'm super confident in Schneider as the #1. And if we DON'T SIGN HIM this offseason, he at least better be getting 85% of the starts next year regardless of who is our backup.


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#1359 Neb00rs

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 11:53 AM

It is a big deal.  For one, I don't think Schneider is a true talent .915 goalie.  I think he's better than that.

 

Cory has had some extended periods of poor play.  He has also had extended periods of superlative play.  For that, he's rewarded with the bench, once again.  Anyone who doesn't see this is blind - Brodeur should've started maybe 20 games this year, instead he has started 35 and will probably get to 40.  That means the Devils have given up 6 more goals than they should've and that's if you assume these save percentages represent true talents, which I do not.  The gap was as wide as .5 goals against, which would mean 10 goals.  You're prepared to give up 10 more goals a season in the interest of 'fairness'?  

 

Speaking of 'fairness', I think this is a very fair post, probably the most so yet in opposition to my opinion. But let me point out where we differ (obviously it starts at "For that..."). I don't really think Cory has been "rewarded with the bench". I don't mean to play rhetorical games but it is important to point out hyperbole when it has an effect on the argument. It is true however, to say that Cory was not rewarded with the undisputed starting position for his play, and that he had the starting position taken away because of his play. I am not prepared to give up that many more goals - obviously 10 is a very significant number - but, I don't know what would have happened. Both goalies have been unpredictable. That's why I don't think it's a big deal that Marty starts because the Cory thing isn't necessarily bringing us victories. Neither is the Marty thing. Both have shown (perhaps Marty to a lesser degree) to be able to play well and (Cory to a lesser degree) to win and both have played like sh!t. I accept that Cory is in a funk and will come out of it but at this point in the season I can't say that I am much more confident with Cory in goal.

 

One thing is clear: Cory is the better goalie and needs to be the guy next year. If Marty were to re-sign and play 40 games next year I would probably explode and assert that Lou is trying to just burn the ship down before he leaves. I don't see that happening though. I think Marty will be in a different jersey next year or none at all. (And as a bold prediction, I think there is a good chance Lou might retire after this season or the next).


Edited by Neb00rs, 25 March 2014 - 12:02 PM.

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#1360 Devil Dan 56

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 11:54 AM

Deboer definitely went back to Marty a lot of times when he should have let Cory play through something. He was weighing wins very heavily in his decisions. Look at how the season began. This is October until the end of November... Notice I'm not mentioning the goalies performance, because this is how I feel Deboer is looking at this:

 

@Pit: Cory L

NYI: Marty SOL

@Edm: Marty SOL

@Van: Cory L

@Cal: Marty L

@Win: Cory L

@Otw: Marty L

NYR: Cory W

@Clb: Cory L

Van: Cory SOL

@BOS: Marty W

TB: Marty W

Phi: Marty L

@Min: Cory L

@Phi: Marty W

@Tor: Cory SOL

Nas: Marty W

@NYR: Marty W

LA: Cory L

Pit: Marty W

@Ana: Marty W

@LA: Cory W

@SJ: Marty L

Win: Marty L

Car: Marty L

@Car: Cory W

Buf: Cory W

 

What I see here is that Cory, even though we all know he outplayed Brodeur, didn't string 2 wins together until November 29th-30th. If Deboer is making his decisions solely on wins and losses, it makes sense. It's not really smart given how good Cory is, but it seems understandable. We also know Cory had a bad December, and when he started to really play his best in January and February, he played a lion's share of the games.


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