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#41 jim777

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 09:46 AM

I understand the above, but say you're a married man who's bringing home most of the money...much of which has gone into a beautiful home, and other perks (pool, cars, tec).  Your wife can be pretty horrible in many ways...maybe withholding sex, constantly bitching and complaining, always making you feel like nothing you ever do is good enough.  She is constantly nagging you, and thinks nothing of embarrassing you in front of others.  Eventually you start fighting back, and the arguments get worse and worse.  Then one day, things get out of control, and your wife hits you, maybe once, maybe multiple times.  You snap and maybe not even technically "hit" her, but you push or shove her.  She falls, maybe gets a bump on her head, bruise on her back.  She calls the police.  How do you think this is going to turn out for you?

 

Sure, you take the "legal" avenue.  The house that you worked so hard to buy?  She's going to get it.  And chances are not only are you going to lose the house, but you're now going have to pay her alimony too.  It's not nearly as easy to just leave as outsiders might think.   

 

And how is any of the above fair to you exactly?  Men often get screwed royally by going the "legal" route. 

 

No discussing Varlamov or his situation, but just this post on its own merits is 1000% true and accurate and EXACTLY how it turns out in the USA all too often. And she wants to say you 'touched' one of the kids, then you lose access to them too.

 

EDIT - I don't mean hitting women, no one should ever do that regardless, I mean the woman getting the house and alimony.


Edited by jim777, 01 November 2013 - 09:51 AM.

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#42 Devils Pride 26

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 09:46 AM

The level of stupidity on this thread makes me want to puke.
.


I tend to agree, the fact of no mention of innocent until proven guilty has come up yet is bothersome.

Who the hell knows what happened? Nobody here is defending hitting women, it's trying to evaluate if it even happened.

What CR is hitting at is, because this is man on woman, we take it and assume it happened just as she told the story. Looking at it if a woman domestically abused a man, it would be a joke to us. Nobody here is saying "well she had it coming." Far from that.
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#43 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 09:55 AM

I tend to agree, the fact of no mention of innocent until proven guilty has come up yet is bothersome.

Who the hell knows what happened? Nobody here is defending hitting women, it's trying to evaluate if it even happened.

What CR is hitting at is, because this is man on woman, we take it and assume it happened just as she told the story. Looking at it if a woman domestically abused a man, it would be a joke to us. Nobody here is saying "well she had it coming." Far from that.

 

Actually, the thread-of-consciousness I'm posting on isn't even about the Varlamov situation specifically (said this in my first post).  It was more addressing something Carter-for-president said in a post, a blanket statement about how too many men are hitting women.  In a perfect world, no one would resort to violence ever.  But what I was pointing out was that every case isn't always about some guy just beating a woman senseless...and I think that's how most people view domestic abuse...very black-and-white. 


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#44 DevsMan84

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 09:55 AM

The level of stupidity on this thread makes me want to puke.

Theres no excuse to hit a woman, ever. And if a woman hits you or is verbally hurting you and you hit them, theres a word for you. Its called being an absolute pansy. You're not a man, you're the bottom of the barrel in society.

You guys wanna talk about flawed, how about the fact this piece of scum is allowed out on $5,000 bond and can still play in this league. Be more upset with the nhl, the avs, and the justice system. Not the woman who got beaten.

Just shows the IQ of a few posters. When the same people who were offended by the word suck, saying it was trashy, are making excuses for woman beaters. You people deserve to be spit on.

 

 

So what is a man to do then?  Just take it repeatedly?  What if the man is trying to walk away or leave and she keeps hitting him or even worse pulls out a weapon on him?  He can't defend himself because he is a man and his attacker is a woman?

 

In a situation where my life is in danger, I don't care who or what gender my attacker is, I am going to defend myself.  If I get called a pansy for that, then so be it.  At least I am alive to hear it.


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#45 DevsMan84

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 09:57 AM

Actually, the thread-of-consciousness I'm posting on isn't even about the Varlamov situation specifically (said this in my first post).  It was more addressing something Carter-for-president said in a post, a blanket statement about how too many men are hitting women.  In a perfect world, no one would resort to violence ever.  But what I was pointing out was that every case isn't always about some guy just beating a woman senseless...and I think that's how most people view domestic abuse...very black-and-white. 

 

 

Bingo.  It's this old fashioned macho bullsh!t that says men can never ever defend themselves from a woman attacker, even if his life is in danger.

 

Noticed how none addressed your example and question about what if a man killed his wife after years of emotional and physical torment at her hands.  You were spot in in saying that the man would be condemned from society and would spend the life in prison.  If you reverse the genders, the woman would be put on a pedastal for ending her torture and probably get a Lifetime movie made about her life.


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#46 DevsMan84

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 10:01 AM

I know you are speaking from personal experience but it seems you might be a little biased on the idea that divorce is mostly the woman's fault. I don't have any statistics but I'm sure middle age men going through mid life crises are just as common a cause of divorce as women.

But I agree in the sense that the legal system has essential become a game of who's got the best and highest paid lawyer, and child custody seems to favor the mother heavily.

I guess when it comes down to it, people need to be absolutely sure they know what they're getting into when they get hitched. It seems like In our instant gratification culture people want to rush to the altar to get married and this is what leads to divorce.

Back on topic though, a fear of divorce is never a good enough excuse to physically hurt your spouse (man or woman).

 

 

In a perfect world it would be 50/50, but we do not live in a perfect world.  Right when both parties walk into the courtroom, in a huge majority of cases the woman is guaranteed at least 50% while the man would have to fight tooth and nail to just get 50%.

 

Divorce cases are heavily stacked against men, even when it is not their fault.


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#47 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 10:03 AM

Bingo.  It's this old fashioned macho bullsh!t that says men can never ever defend themselves from a woman attacker, even if his life is in danger.

 

Noticed how none addressed your example and question about what if a man killed his wife after years of emotional and physical torment at her hands.  You were spot in in saying that the man would be condemned from society and would spend the life in prison.  If you reverse the genders, the woman would be put on a pedastal for ending her torture and probably get a Lifetime movie made about her life.

 

I never brought up anything about potential murder.  This was my example:

 

Just look at that Jets/Pats game situation. If everything had played out EXACTLY the same way, except the genders of the participants were reversed, does it get anywhere NEAR the same attention? If anything, a lot of people would probably chuckle and say "Dude, you got popped by a girl!"

 

  


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#48 DevsMan84

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 10:09 AM

I never brought up anything about potential murder.  This was my example:

 

Just look at that Jets/Pats game situation. If everything had played out EXACTLY the same way, except the genders of the participants were reversed, does it get anywhere NEAR the same attention? If anything, a lot of people would probably chuckle and say "Dude, you got popped by a girl!"

 

  

 

Yeah I know, but same sort of deal.  Mine was just on the extreme end.  Views though would be pretty much the same.  Guy hits girl after she hits him a ton of times = jail for him and he is known as a woman beater.  Girl hits guy after guy hits her a bunch of times. = he deserved it


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#49 dmann422

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 10:22 AM

Yeah I know, but same sort of deal. Mine was just on the extreme end. Views though would be pretty much the same. Guy hits girl after she hits him a ton of times = jail for him and he is known as a woman beater. Girl hits guy after guy hits her a bunch of times. = he deserved it

I did not follow up on the jets fan incident but I believe I heard that all three parties (one man and two women) who used physical violence were arrested.
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#50 Triumph

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 10:25 AM

Everything I'm about to post has NOTHING to with the Varlamov situation.  I'm only addressing the bolded (and unfair) generalizaiton.

 

Look, I'm all for not hitting women, or anyone for that matter, but at the same time, there's also women who play the woman card, and think that being a woman isolates them from ever being hit, just because, and there's definitely double standards in play. 

 

How about the woman that is hitting her boyfriend/spouse several times, until he finally fights back and hits her once, more in self-defense than anything else, but hard enough to leave a mark, and possibly draw blood.  She then calls the police and informs them that a man just struck her.  When the cops show up, who do you think is the one that's going to get tackled, shackled, dragged off, and labeled as a "woman-beater".  Chances are when the guy says "But she was beating ME up first!", it will almost get laughed off.

 

I've seen women mouth off, continue to go off on a man, refuse to let up, say extremely hateful and hurtful things that are clearly intended to stir up a reaction even when the man is doing his best to walk away and not escalate the situation futher.  If a guy does this to a woman, and the woman smacks him, it's not uncommon for other women to say "you go girl!" or something of that nature.  But women get away with verbal and physical abuse towards a man a lot easier than if the roles were reversed.  Just look at that Jets/Pats game situation.  If everything had played out EXACTLY the same way, except the genders of the participants were reversed, does it get anywhere NEAR the same attention?  If anything, a lot of people would probably chuckle and say "Dude, you got popped by a girl!"   

 

Not all women who get hit are hapless victims and damsels in distress...I'm not saying a man is right to hit a woman, but some of those women are definitely doing their best to push buttons.  There's a lot of shades of gray, and the black-and-white generalization of "Poor battered woman/abusive man" isn't really fair. 

 

A small percentage of spousal physical abuse is by women towards men.  A much larger percentage is men towards women.  The reason for all this leeway granted to women re: physical abuse is quite simple - men are bigger and stronger than women.  Do some women abuse that status?  Sure.  It's a consequence of living in a more tolerant and just society.

 

CarterForPresident is of course wrong when he says that men are always hitting women - physical abuse of women has no doubt declined over the last 50 years, at least in the U.S.  You just think it's increased because since it is rarer, it's now bigger news.  Man hits woman would be 'Dog bites man' of the early 20th century in the U.S. (and indeed, is still the case in many parts of the world).

 

Re: this Varlamov stuff, who knows what exactly is true, but all the Russian hockey writers jumped on Twitter to defend him, which was rather odious.


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#51 DevsMan84

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 10:29 AM

I did not follow up on the jets fan incident but I believe I heard that all three parties (one man and two women) who used physical violence were arrested.

 

Which is the right thing to do.  Both parties acted dumb and probably had their fair share of liquor in them.

 

However, this only was huge news because a guy hit a woman and was caught on tape.  Fights happen at Jets games all the time but because of the participant this made the news.


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#52 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 10:39 AM

A small percentage of spousal physical abuse is by women towards men.  A much larger percentage is men towards women.  The reason for all this leeway granted to women re: physical abuse is quite simple - men are bigger and stronger than women.  Do some women abuse that status?  Sure.  It's a consequence of living in a more tolerant and just society.

 

CarterForPresident is of course wrong when he says that men are always hitting women - physical abuse of women has no doubt declined over the last 50 years, at least in the U.S.  You just think it's increased because since it is rarer, it's now bigger news.  Man hits woman would be 'Dog bites man' of the early 20th century in the U.S. (and indeed, is still the case in many parts of the world).

 

Re: this Varlamov stuff, who knows what exactly is true, but all the Russian hockey writers jumped on Twitter to defend him, which was rather odious.

 

I'm not going to say that women physically abusing men is a serious problem, but as far as percentage of actual REPORTED cases, if you could somehow tally every single incident of domestic abuse, the percentage of actual reported man-on-woman physical abuse in relation to actual incidents of such is higher than the other way around, and for obvious reasons...men being afraid of the stigmas that will go with calling in such an incident, etc.

 

Say a woman smacks a man in the face twice.  Technically, that IS assault.  Will the man call the police?  Probably not.  It's also unlikely that the people around him will pressure him to report it, even if he has visible marks on his face. 

 

Man does the same to a woman...she is more likely to call it in.  If she doesn't want to, people around her will likely threaten to report it themselves, even more so if she has visible marks on his face.

 

Not even really disputing your original percentage statement (man-on-woman violence definitely happens more), but just stating that woman-on-man violence happens far more often than is ever documented.       


Edited by Colorado Rockies 1976, 01 November 2013 - 10:40 AM.

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#53 dmann422

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 10:45 AM

Which is the right thing to do. Both parties acted dumb and probably had their fair share of liquor in them.

However, this only was huge news because a guy hit a woman and was caught on tape. Fights happen at Jets games all the time but because of the participant this made the news.

if the guy just walked away and/or got police to intervene it wouldn't have been national news either. From what I saw of the video it seemed like he wasn't in a hurry to leave or get help.
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#54 ATLL765

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 10:49 AM

But we've seen how this often turns out for men.  He loses his house, furniture, and has to pay alimony and child support, even if his ex is fully capable of supporting herself (but refuses to work).  And he likely won't get to see his kids nearly as much as she will.     

 

If everything was split 50/50, that I could understand, and I think that's fair, regardless of who earned the most money during the marriage.  But that's not what often happens.   

This whole issue is very gray as you mentioned. No one should be violent towards another, period. Man, woman, whatever. Especially with men defending themselves, as women can definitely be violent and it shouldn't be just put up with because they're a girl. That being said, if you are a man that is a professional athlete, like Varlamov is, and I have a feeling his gf isn't gonna be a female bodybuilder or anything, he could very easily contain her if she was being violent without inflicting any harm on her. Of course, if you're a regular Joe and your wife summons extra strength via her rage, you should probably either A. Call the cops(but then you're a giant pansy, seriously, if you can't handle family issues without the cops, wtf are you doing?) or B. Go take a walk and think about what it is that has poisoned your relationship with you SO and whether it's really worth repairing.

On divorce though, I disagree. When you marry someone and the two of you make the decision that say she will stay home to care for the kids rather than work, that was your decision too. In divorce, they're not just looking at whether the woman has the ability to work for themselves, it's the level of comfort and lifestyle that person is used to. If they used to work and made $35-45K, but when she married you, making say $100k, you've accepted the fact that you've raised your families level of comfort and lifestyle and you cannot just think oh well, she can go back to just scraping by because you don't want to pay extra. You signed a contract saying everything is 50/50 here on out and usually the only way you can get out of deal, is to buy your way out of it, as is done in divorce.

Maybe this discussion will be different in the future, but with the way women are still discriminated against in the workplace, it would be unfair to have it any other way.


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#55 dmann422

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 10:54 AM

Re: this Varlamov stuff, who knows what exactly is true, but all the Russian hockey writers jumped on Twitter to defend him, which was rather odious.

I know next to nothing of Russian culture, and I don't want to judge based on a few tweets by these writers (and posters in here), but if what the girlfriend said is true then I don't know how any civilized society can defend what happened or claim some crazy Olympic conspiracy theory.
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#56 DevsMan84

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 10:59 AM

if the guy just walked away and/or got police to intervene it wouldn't have been national news either. From what I saw of the video it seemed like he wasn't in a hurry to leave or get help.

 

Oh yeah I mean no one acted right in the video.  But if it was 2 guys pounding each other it wouldn't have been national news either.


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#57 DevsMan84

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 11:02 AM

This whole issue is very gray as you mentioned. No one should be violent towards another, period. Man, woman, whatever. Especially with men defending themselves, as women can definitely be violent and it shouldn't be just put up with because they're a girl. That being said, if you are a man that is a professional athlete, like Varlamov is, and I have a feeling his gf isn't gonna be a female bodybuilder or anything, he could very easily contain her if she was being violent without inflicting any harm on her. Of course, if you're a regular Joe and your wife summons extra strength via her rage, you should probably either A. Call the cops(but then you're a giant pansy, seriously, if you can't handle family issues without the cops, wtf are you doing?) or B. Go take a walk and think about what it is that has poisoned your relationship with you SO and whether it's really worth repairing.

On divorce though, I disagree. When you marry someone and the two of you make the decision that say she will stay home to care for the kids rather than work, that was your decision too. In divorce, they're not just looking at whether the woman has the ability to work for themselves, it's the level of comfort and lifestyle that person is used to. If they used to work and made $35-45K, but when she married you, making say $100k, you've accepted the fact that you've raised your families level of comfort and lifestyle and you cannot just think oh well, she can go back to just scraping by because you don't want to pay extra. You signed a contract saying everything is 50/50 here on out and usually the only way you can get out of deal, is to buy your way out of it, as is done in divorce.

Maybe this discussion will be different in the future, but with the way women are still discriminated against in the workplace, it would be unfair to have it any other way.

 

I've always had a problem with that thinking.  I agree a marriage is a contract and I believe in a divorce things should be split evenly for large majority of them.  However, to expect to live the same lifestyle after the divorce as you did before is just foolish and unrealistic.  The household was split in two so their combined income will never be as high.

 

In most of these cases its the man paying the woman alimony it is up to the man to then pay the difference.  What if he loses his job?  I know he can go back to court to ask it to be lowered, but a lot of times that doesn't happen.  There is/was a very real case of that happening in Flemington where a guy was jailed for failure to pay alimony after he lost his high paying job and after his requests to lower his alimony payments were rejected.


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#58 NewarkDevil5

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 11:08 AM

Say a woman smacks a man in the face twice.  Technically, that IS assault.  Will the man call the police?  Probably not.  It's also unlikely that the people around him will pressure him to report it, even if he has visible marks on his face. 

 

Actually, technically it is battery.


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#59 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 11:08 AM

On divorce though, I disagree. When you marry someone and the two of you make the decision that say she will stay home to care for the kids rather than work, that was your decision too. In divorce, they're not just looking at whether the woman has the ability to work for themselves, it's the level of comfort and lifestyle that person is used to. If they used to work and made $35-45K, but when she married you, making say $100k, you've accepted the fact that you've raised your families level of comfort and lifestyle and you cannot just think oh well, she can go back to just scraping by because you don't want to pay extra. You signed a contract saying everything is 50/50 here on out and usually the only way you can get out of deal, is to buy your way out of it, as is done in divorce.

 

Problem is there are abuses and loopholes.  My brother is divorced and has since remarried.  His ex-wife has a master's degree and was very gainfully employed before they had two kids.  She quit her job once they had their first child, but the plane was that she would go back to work in time.  Those kids are now almost 13 and 11, and VERY capable of taking care of themselves after school...she has no reason to stay home anymore.  The ex is perfectly capable of working again, as was PLANNED, but refuses to...she would rather collect her alimony.  She is in a relationship with a man that is technically living with her, but since that would cause her to forfeit her alimony if he actually WAS doing that, he maintains a cheap apartment, for no other reason that it shows an address that isn't where she lives.  My brother was extremely fair in the settlement, and has a great relationship with his kids (and has ALWAYS taken care of them financially), but she is always looking for more money.

 

And the problem with what you're saying is the man often has to give up the lifestyle HE was accustomed to as well, so she can continue to enjoy living the lifestyle SHE was used to.  How is THAT fair exactly?     


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Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.
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#60 NewarkDevil5

NewarkDevil5

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 11:15 AM

Problem is there are abuses and loopholes.  My brother is divorced and has since remarried.  His ex-wife has a master's degree and was very gainfully employed before they had two kids.  She quit her job once they had their first child, but the plane was that she would go back to work in time.  Those kids are now almost 13 and 11, and VERY capable of taking care of themselves after school...she has no reason to stay home anymore.  The ex is perfectly capable of working again, as was PLANNED, but refuses to...she would rather collect her alimony.  She is in a relationship with a man that is technically living with her, but since that would cause her to forfeit her alimony if he actually WAS doing that, he maintains a cheap apartment, for no other reason that it shows an address that isn't where she lives.  My brother was extremely fair in the settlement, and has a great relationship with his kids (and has ALWAYS taken care of them financially), but she is always looking for more money.

 

And the problem with what you're saying is the man often has to give up the lifestyle HE was accustomed to as well, so she can continue to enjoy living the lifestyle SHE was used to.  How is THAT fair exactly?     

 

I agree that alimony is a system that needs to be very seriously reformed. New Jersey's alimony laws in particular are rather awful. That is, however something that must be taken up by ballot box.


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