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If the team continues to struggle, does Lou start to feel the heat?


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#41 coldply123

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 03:29 PM

please name more than 5 gms who over the past decade have done better than Lou.

And I want ones that didn't need to tank in consecutive years to get elite talent.


That's not quantifiable or qualitative in terms of appropriate comparison. It's totally irrelevant to proper analysis of the Devils and Lou and a siloed situation when you are a GM.
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#42 coldply123

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 03:32 PM

The places where teams make catastrophic errors are typically in trade and free agency. Lou hasn't gotten significantly beaten in trade in a long time. He's made errors in free agency but everyone makes mistakes there. The drafting hasn't been great, but I wouldn't call it poor either.


Drafting has been poor to date. That assessment may improve as some of these dmen make an impact. Lou used to be a master of handling the year to year roster turnover. He's really fallen in that area regardless of the excuses people want to find.
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#43 dmann422

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 03:38 PM

That's not quantifiable or qualitative in terms of appropriate comparison. It's totally irrelevant to proper analysis of the Devils and Lou and a siloed situation when you are a GM.

the point is if you get rid if Lou who do you replace him with?

Lou knows how to win and build great teams. Anyone you replace him with will be a much bigger gamble than keeping him.
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#44 Triumph

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 03:39 PM

Drafting has been poor to date. That assessment may improve as some of these dmen make an impact. Lou used to be a master of handling the year to year roster turnover. He's really fallen in that area regardless of the excuses people want to find.

 

Sorry, but this is malarkey.  The Devils have never had to do this kind of a roster overhaul because they were constantly getting top talent from their drafting.  From 1990 to 2004, few teams beat the Devils in terms of quality of players drafted.  And this is a positive feedback loop because the more good players you draft, you can trade some away and still have other good players - e.g. the Gilmour trade, which many around here consider a 'bust' but it didn't hurt the Devils' long-term prospects at all, so what was really lost there?

 

The rest of the league has cottoned to some of Lou's best tricks - that undersized players are often undervalued, that college free agents are worth investigating, etc.  Other than that, when the pipeline of prospects stops, you can't then sell off veterans for picks and continue to pick up prospects.  In addition, the change in the UFA rules regarding compensatory picks also hurt NJ's drafting - used to be they got some free picks most years that they now do not get.


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#45 DJ Eco

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 03:40 PM

the point is if you get rid if Lou who do you replace him with?

Lou knows how to win and build great teams. Anyone you replace him with will be a much bigger gamble than keeping him.

 

This ^^^ And do the new ownership know enough about the game to know who to get to replace him? My guess is no..


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#46 Devilsfan118

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 03:42 PM

stop being so rational, people around here want to scream and throw their arms up in the air because this team is doomed for the next 5 years!

 

You need to chill out and step back from the thread if you can't have an actual discussion without sensationalizing everything.  People are allowed to have differing opinions - it's a forum for Christ sake.

 

-----

 

But I think the biggest thing Lou still has going for him is his reputation.  No one dares to try and fleece Lou Lams in a trade, the respect (read: influence) he has league wide is unprecedented.  I think that's what allows him to get Lokti for a 5th.  I don't doubt that Lou is still one of the sharpest GMs in the league, but I don't think he ever adapted well to the salary cap.  He had trouble when it was first implemented, and he's had his pretty bad blunders in recent years (dressing too few players a few years ago comes to mind) as well.

 

the point is if you get rid if Lou who do you replace him with?
 

Chris Lamoriello  :giggle:


Edited by Devilsfan118, 04 November 2013 - 03:43 PM.

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#47 SMantzas

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 03:55 PM

I don't think people realize how crazy NJ was at drafting and signing UDFA from the late 90s-2004. Gomez, Parise, Gionta, White, Zajac, Martin, Madden and Rafalski. Those guys and Marty B were the reason why NJ was able to survive the losses of Stevens and Nieds

 

Devils are going through a similar transition with Marty, Kovy and Parise gone/leaving. Larsson has been fantastic since his insertion back into the lineup, Schneids is a great goalie, but aside from those players, plus possibly Merrill, there isn't elite talent on the way.


Edited by SMantzas, 04 November 2013 - 03:58 PM.

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#48 2ELIAS6

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 03:59 PM

I don't think people realize how crazy NJ was at drafting and signing UDFA from the late 90s-2004. Gomez, Parise, Gionta, White, Zajac, Martin, Madden and Rafalski. Those guys and Marty B were the reason why NJ was able to survive the losses of Stevens and Nieds

looking back we had a lot of talent we were lucky which was why we were so successful it stings everyone now that theres not any talent on the team and they look like dog sh!t out there.. it really sucks but lou isnt going anywhere enless he wants to leave, thats almost a guarantee right there
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#49 dmann422

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 04:00 PM

You need to chill out and step back from the thread if you can't have an actual discussion without sensationalizing everything. People are allowed to have differing opinions - it's a forum for Christ sake.


You criticize me for using hyperbole in jest when there are countless others here over the past 2 days using it seriously to prophesize how this team will forfeit a top 5 pick and argue how Lou should be fired.

It's a forum where everyone speaks in extremes in nearly every post. I don't see why I can't use it to point out how ridiculous extremes are.
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#50 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 04:02 PM

the point is if you get rid if Lou who do you replace him with?

Lou knows how to win and build great teams. Anyone you replace him with will be a much bigger gamble than keeping him.

 

From the title of the thread, I didn't really take it to mean "Lou feeling the heat from the fans".  I think if he's going to be feeling it from anywhere, it will be from ownership.  There's always going to fans that will complain about Lou's moves, and won't or can't tolerate a down period or some moves not working out.  And the Devils fanbase has its fair share of instant gratification types.       

 

I think if VBK was still the majority owner of the team, Lou would probably have almost Glen Sather-like job security.  With this group, I'm not so sure.   


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#51 dmann422

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 04:38 PM

From the title of the thread, I didn't really take it to mean "Lou feeling the heat from the fans". I think if he's going to be feeling it from anywhere, it will be from ownership. There's always going to fans that will complain about Lou's moves, and won't or can't tolerate a down period or some moves not working out. And the Devils fanbase has its fair share of instant gratification types.

I think if VBK was still the majority owner of the team, Lou would probably have almost Glen Sather-like job security. With this group, I'm not so sure.

you're right, I probably should have prefaced my thoughts with the fact that I don't want to guess what ownership may think or do, rather I want to speak from my perspective as a fan. And it bothers me when other fans declare that Lou's time is up. (Obviously this is not what the op did but others have in this and other threads)

Devils fans have been spoiled for knowing nothing but a winning culture for so long, while you have teams that know nothing but losing and failure for the past two decades.

It bothers me that as soon as we have a bad 2/3 of season (because that's essentially what this ~60 game stretch is), fans are so quick to jump ship and profess doom.

Bottom line: I have no idea what ownership will do if this season ends the way it's beginning, but I know that I will not lose faith in Lou
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#52 DH26

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 05:10 PM

Yep.  Look where that's landed them...the sixers are an abomination (to say the least).

 

for the record, they're an intentional abomination (riggin for Wiggins 2014!) that doesn't happen/need to happen in the NHL like it does in the NBA


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#53 coldply123

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 05:19 PM

Sorry, but this is malarkey. The Devils have never had to do this kind of a roster overhaul because they were constantly getting top talent from their drafting. From 1990 to 2004, few teams beat the Devils in terms of quality of players drafted. And this is a positive feedback loop because the more good players you draft, you can trade some away and still have other good players - e.g. the Gilmour trade, which many around here consider a 'bust' but it didn't hurt the Devils' long-term prospects at all, so what was really lost there?

The rest of the league has cottoned to some of Lou's best tricks - that undersized players are often undervalued, that college free agents are worth investigating, etc. Other than that, when the pipeline of prospects stops, you can't then sell off veterans for picks and continue to pick up prospects. In addition, the change in the UFA rules regarding compensatory picks also hurt NJ's drafting - used to be they got some free picks most years that they now do not get.


So what is your point? Preferably without rambling on for two paragraphs on items which most of us already know to be the case and which you fail to tie in to Lamoriello's increasingly poor performance aside from vaguely suggesting he was god like up until 2004 in these areas which is highly circumstantial at best might I add as other teams took the same chances on guys you mention.

You did nothing to deconstruct the poor drafting argument or that Lou has struggled in the area I mentioned other than to use one of my favorite words, malarkey.
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#54 coldply123

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 05:22 PM

you're right, I probably should have prefaced my thoughts with the fact that I don't want to guess what ownership may think or do, rather I want to speak from my perspective as a fan. And it bothers me when other fans declare that Lou's time is up. (Obviously this is not what the op did but others have in this and other threads)

Devils fans have been spoiled for knowing nothing but a winning culture for so long, while you have teams that know nothing but losing and failure for the past two decades.

It bothers me that as soon as we have a bad 2/3 of season (because that's essentially what this ~60 game stretch is), fans are so quick to jump ship and profess doom.

Bottom line: I have no idea what ownership will do if this season ends the way it's beginning, but I know that I will not lose faith in Lou


You know what, good for you. I sincerely mean that. But this team has been bad three out of four years. Why should fans not have a high standard or be demanding or question the direction of the team? Lou should be held to the same standard he held so many coaches and players to in his tenure.
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#55 dmann422

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 05:41 PM

You know what, good for you. I sincerely mean that. But this team has been bad three out of four years. Why should fans not have a high standard or be demanding or question the direction of the team? Lou should be held to the same standard he held so many coaches and players to in his tenure.

because the best predictor of future performance is past performance, and there are very few gms in nhl history who have been as good as Lou.

Put it this way: if Lou is let go and he wants a job, he'll have offers in a matter if minutes.

Yes I'm sure your argument against this is maybe it's time for a fresh face and new outlook for the team, but I would say that people were making these same comments after 2011 and next thing you know Lou built an eastern conference champion.

I would agree with you if you could give me one legitimate candidate who has a better possibility if success as Lou. And as a said in my previous post which you dismissed, there are very few who has been as good as Lou.
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#56 coldply123

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 06:03 PM

because the best predictor of future performance is past performance, and there are very few gms in nhl history who have been as good as Lou.

Put it this way: if Lou is let go and he wants a job, he'll have offers in a matter if minutes.

Yes I'm sure your argument against this is maybe it's time for a fresh face and new outlook for the team, but I would say that people were making these same comments after 2011 and next thing you know Lou built an eastern conference champion.

I would agree with you if you could give me one legitimate candidate who has a better possibility if success as Lou. And as a said in my previous post which you dismissed, there are very few who has been as good as Lou.


Lou is going to be 70 and I disagree on past peformance being a predictor here. Times change and people change. The next great GM has not been hired yet because they have to get the opportunity.
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#57 ATLL765

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 06:20 PM

Lou is going to be 70 and I disagree on past peformance being a predictor here. Times change and people change. The next great GM has not been hired yet because they have to get the opportunity.

If you can't use past performance as an indicator of future performance, why did you use it to support your position that he needs to be replaced?


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#58 Triumph

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 06:20 PM

So what is your point? Preferably without rambling on for two paragraphs on items which most of us already know to be the case and which you fail to tie in to Lamoriello's increasingly poor performance aside from vaguely suggesting he was god like up until 2004 in these areas which is highly circumstantial at best might I add as other teams took the same chances on guys you mention.

You did nothing to deconstruct the poor drafting argument or that Lou has struggled in the area I mentioned other than to use one of my favorite words, malarkey.

 

This is a terrible post.  You barely put forth an argument in your last post ('Drafting has been poor to date' - uhhh, since when?  Where's the cutoff?  I doubt it starts with the beginning of Lamoriello's tenure) and now you're taking me to task for 'rambling'?

 

I'd evaluate a GM mostly on trades, free agent signings, choice of coach - drafting less so but it's certainly included.  As for drafts, there are some things I really don't like that the Devils do deep in the draft - Jorg, Nagy, Rodwell, A. Brodeur, these are wasted picks - but in all I think the Devils move up or down reasonably intelligently, and they haven't wasted a high draft pick on a goalie in some time.  They don't seem to privilege one junior league over another, and they don't seem to be obsessed with attributes that don't matter.  The coaching, well that's where I'd have the biggest issue with Lou L, but I like DeBoer and while I didn't approve of Lemaire coming back, he was pretty darn good here.  MacLean was obviously a failure, but so colossally one that he only cost the Devils a season.  Trades, the Devils haven't made a ton of these lately but I almost always like his trades.  As for free agent signings, I generally like the short-term ones and disapprove of the long-term ones, but I don't think there is anything categorically incorrect about how he's gone about doing things in that arena.  I don't like the fact that Brodeur's still here, but hopefully that will be rectified after this season.


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#59 coldply123

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 06:29 PM

This is a terrible post. You barely put forth an argument in your last post ('Drafting has been poor to date' - uhhh, since when? Where's the cutoff? I doubt it starts with the beginning of Lamoriello's tenure) and now you're taking me to task for 'rambling'?

I'd evaluate a GM mostly on trades, free agent signings, choice of coach - drafting less so but it's certainly included. As for drafts, there are some things I really don't like that the Devils do deep in the draft - Jorg, Nagy, Rodwell, A. Brodeur, these are wasted picks - but in all I think the Devils move up or down reasonably intelligently, and they haven't wasted a high draft pick on a goalie in some time. They don't seem to privilege one junior league over another, and they don't seem to be obsessed with attributes that don't matter. The coaching, well that's where I'd have the biggest issue with Lou L, but I like DeBoer and while I didn't approve of Lemaire coming back, he was pretty darn good here. MacLean was obviously a failure, but so colossally one that he only cost the Devils a season. Trades, the Devils haven't made a ton of these lately but I almost always like his trades. As for free agent signings, I generally like the short-term ones and disapprove of the long-term ones, but I don't think there is anything categorically incorrect about how he's gone about doing things in that arena. I don't like the fact that Brodeur's still here, but hopefully that will be rectified after this season.


Categorically incorrect?

His coaching carousel has been an issue but the free agent signings have been pretty bad too with a lot of excess in terms and yrs. Really the only area under his control he has done well is trading but when your prospect fool falters you are limited in your options on that front. Does Lou not oversee Conte and furthermore the development of these prospects?
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#60 Triumph

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 06:44 PM

Categorically incorrect?

His coaching carousel has been an issue but the free agent signings have been pretty bad too with a lot of excess in terms and yrs. Really the only area under his control he has done well is trading but when your prospect fool falters you are limited in your options on that front. Does Lou not oversee Conte and furthermore the development of these prospects?

 

'Lou gives free agents too many years and dollars!'

 

unlike all those other GMs who do not do that.  I'd love to hear about this magical organization that is able to sign desirable free agents to short term deals for less money than that player is worth.


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