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If the team continues to struggle, does Lou start to feel the heat?


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#121 SterioDesign

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 06:00 PM

Ray Shero has an open checkbook and 40 million tied up in 6 players next year. He utilizes a different strategy where he has the freedom to throw the money out there and fix it later. I'd also argue that a big reason for Shero trading Staal was less about being able to lock him up and more about having to extend Crosby, Malkin, and Letang. Additionally, he had the advantage of not having to worry about replacing Staal since they had a glut of good centers.

 

Lou's approach is different in that he evaluates the team as a whole at the end of a season. What you call stubborn others would consider crafty. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it wrong.  It's a more patient and steady approach and until recently, there were few seasons like this one because he made few knee-jerk decisions. It isn't the same as Ray Shero's approach, but it's one that survived four different ownership reigns, some of which were very frugal.

 

Thats fair about Shero's situation but keep in mind that what im trying to point out that you have to adapt to situations. In his specific situation he can still trade those players in the future if he's strapped and get a really good return for them, it's certainly not a loss on his side. Plus it was not about being able to resign all the other guys since he made him a pretty good offer, and only acted after he refused, it was not about the money. It comes down to "he did what he had to and figured he would not be able to keep Staal before it was too late to minimize the loss."

 

And i disagree about the "crafty" thing, it's not crafty it's black on white repetitive procedure. Like i mentioned earlier his one and only approach worked in the past cause we had a good team that guys wanted to play for. It's kind of like a super hot bitch, she can do wtv she want and let guys hang on for months she knows she can get them when she has to. Well Lou is not too hot anymore lol

 

So my whole point is that you have to adjust to certain situations in order to get the best results. If you "automate" an approach you will fail in the cases where a different approach would have been needed 100% of the time.


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#122 SterioDesign

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 06:04 PM

You use examples, then say not to use that in a rebuttal, ok. You say he should do this or that, but then say, well don't rebut that either because you just don't get what I mean. Do you even know what you're saying?

I'm pretty sure there's others that are just as lost as to what your point is. That's def on you, not everyone else.

And from what I gather your point is that LL should instinctively know what players want to stay or go and somehow manage to trade them for 1st rd picks that always turn into Scott Niedermayer or sign them for significantly below market value. Did I get it this time?

 

lol wow, i did not do what you just said i did, you absolutely went around what i said cause you're stuck in a corner here.

 

alright i get it, you're not even really trying to understand you're clearly just trolling me all along. If you have a diploma of any kind theres absolutely no way you would have understood what you just said you think my point was. 


Edited by SterioDesign, 05 November 2013 - 06:10 PM.

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#123 Triumph

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 06:27 PM

Ray Shero has an open checkbook and 40 million tied up in 6 players next year. He utilizes a different strategy where he has the freedom to throw the money out there and fix it later. I'd also argue that a big reason for Shero trading Staal was less about being able to lock him up and more about having to extend Crosby, Malkin, and Letang. Additionally, he had the advantage of not having to worry about replacing Staal since they had a glut of good centers.

 

Lou's approach is different in that he evaluates the team as a whole at the end of a season. What you call stubborn others would consider crafty. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it wrong.  It's a more patient and steady approach and until recently, there were few seasons like this one because he made few knee-jerk decisions. It isn't the same as Ray Shero's approach, but it's one that survived four different ownership reigns, some of which were very frugal.

 

Having Crosby and Malkin makes dealing a 3rd center very simple.  If Shero had just one of those guys, Staal, and two guys clearly worse, is he still making that deal?  It's impossible to say.  It's just far easier to deal from a position of strength like that, and that's a position the Devils haven't been in for some time.

 

The thing that's impressive about the Wings and Devils is that they've outlasted assets gained by being a terrible team.  The Devils late 90s-early 00s run was built off assets gained in the early 90s, mostly, combined with shrewd drafting, but players drafted early like Muller, Shanahan, Rolston, Guerin, etc. - the Devils reduced those assets to 0 and still had a good team anyway.

 

As for Clarkson, there's just no way the Devils would've considered trading him.  They had Kovalchuk, him, and a bunch of guys who weren't very good.  This is what teams who have UFAs who are going to the playoffs do in tons of cases, in the vast majority of cases.  They keep the player, maybe they sign him to an extension at that point or after the season, but in Clarkson's case, I don't think it would've made sense at any price point.


Edited by Triumph, 05 November 2013 - 06:29 PM.

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#124 halfsharkalligatorhalfman

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 07:06 PM

If the team continues on this path and has a high draft pick this year, I can't imagine another GM surviving the decision to keep the first round draft pick in 2012.  I wonder if it the fact that the Devils have to forfeit the pick this year caused Lou to make some moves (Clowe contract, trade for Schneider) that he wouldn't have made otherwise.  


Edited by halfsharkalligatorhalfman, 05 November 2013 - 07:06 PM.

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#125 mouse

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 09:03 PM

Thats fair about Shero's situation but keep in mind that what im trying to point out that you have to adapt to situations. In his specific situation he can still trade those players in the future if he's strapped and get a really good return for them, it's certainly not a loss on his side. Plus it was not about being able to resign all the other guys since he made him a pretty good offer, and only acted after he refused, it was not about the money. It comes down to "he did what he had to and figured he would not be able to keep Staal before it was too late to minimize the loss."

 

 

So do you give up the Finals run? If the Devils were less than optimistic about Parise and chose to trade him, that run never happens. IMO Lou followed the same logic last year with Clarkson. It worked once, it didn't work the second time. This isn't evidence of some colossal issue with Lou's style. Also, with the possible exception of Toronto, who don't have many assets (maybe draft picks, but doubt even they'd give a first or second rounder), no one was giving up that much for a Clarkson rental. It's not like Lou cost himself much by letting Clarkson try free agency. I wish he hadn't replaced Clarkson with Clowe, especially for the contract he gave, but I have no problem with the way the Clarkson situation was handled, or the Parise situation before that.  


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#126 devilsrule33

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 09:48 PM

If the team continues on this path and has a high draft pick this year, I can't imagine another GM surviving the decision to keep the first round draft pick in 2012.  I wonder if it the fact that the Devils have to forfeit the pick this year caused Lou to make some moves (Clowe contract, trade for Schneider) that he wouldn't have made otherwise.  

 

Well there aren't many GMs with the track record of a Lou Lamoriello.

 

I think having new ownership doesn't hurt Lou at all. These owners know Lamoriello is regarded as a top 5 General Manager in NHL history and that he last took the Devils to a Stanley Cup in 2012. And they also probably know that they don't know much about hockey. They aren't going to step in after one bad year regardless how sh!tty the situation without having a 1st overall pick. Maybe they blame it on injuries or Kovalchuk suddenly leaving. 

 

It would be a messy situation to fire a legend right away. Now if they are awful again in 2014-2015, and the fans just don't show up at all...maybe they ask Lou to step down or retire rather than firing him. I just can't imagine Lou ever getting canned. 

 

Can anyone really think of a situation where a legendary general manager that has been this successful has been fired in any sport? 


Edited by devilsrule33, 05 November 2013 - 09:49 PM.

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#127 CarterforPresident

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 10:21 PM

Well..men's warehouse fired their founder...that's why we don't see that older man in the commercials saying"you know your gonna like how you look or whatever' much different situation lol..

Well there aren't many GMs with the track record of a Lou Lamoriello.

I think having new ownership doesn't hurt Lou at all. These owners know Lamoriello is regarded as a top 5 General Manager in NHL history and that he last took the Devils to a Stanley Cup in 2012. And they also probably know that they don't know much about hockey. They aren't going to step in after one bad year regardless how sh!tty the situation without having a 1st overall pick. Maybe they blame it on injuries or Kovalchuk suddenly leaving.

It would be a messy situation to fire a legend right away. Now if they are awful again in 2014-2015, and the fans just don't show up at all...maybe they ask Lou to step down or retire rather than firing him. I just can't imagine Lou ever getting canned.

Can anyone really think of a situation where a legendary general manager that has been this successful has been fired in any sport?


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#128 NJDevs4978

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 10:23 PM

Bill Torrey was essentially forced out of Long Island.  I'm pretty sure Jerry Jones canned Tex Schramm in addition to Tom Landry when he took over the Cowboys.  But yeah it is pretty rare.


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#129 The 29th Pick

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 10:38 PM

Well there aren't many GMs with the track record of a Lou Lamoriello.

 

I think having new ownership doesn't hurt Lou at all. These owners know Lamoriello is regarded as a top 5 General Manager in NHL history and that he last took the Devils to a Stanley Cup in 2012. And they also probably know that they don't know much about hockey. They aren't going to step in after one bad year regardless how sh!tty the situation without having a 1st overall pick. Maybe they blame it on injuries or Kovalchuk suddenly leaving. 

 

It would be a messy situation to fire a legend right away. Now if they are awful again in 2014-2015, and the fans just don't show up at all...maybe they ask Lou to step down or retire rather than firing him. I just can't imagine Lou ever getting canned. 

 

Can anyone really think of a situation where a legendary general manager that has been this successful has been fired in any sport? 

Its rare, the Yankees fired Gene Michael just before the 90's success, but was a big part of it:

 During Michael's tenure as general manager, the Yankees drafted or signed such notable players as Mariano RiveraAndy PettitteDerek JeterJorge Posada, and others. Further, he traded popular prospect Roberto Kelly for Paul O'Neill, whose fiery persona and play would become a cornerstone for the team. This foundation paid off with Yankee championships in 1996, and from 1998–2000. However, Michael was fired before the Yankees dynasty began,


Edited by The 29th Pick, 05 November 2013 - 10:39 PM.

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#130 Mike Brown

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 11:00 PM

This is a dumb question but was the 29th pick a Lou move or did JVB have a say in that too?

 

Nobody really knows.  There's a lot of theories going around.


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#131 DH26

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 11:20 PM

Its rare, the Yankees fired Gene Michael just before the 90's success, but was a big part of it:

 During Michael's tenure as general manager, the Yankees drafted or signed such notable players as Mariano RiveraAndy PettitteDerek JeterJorge Posada, and others. Further, he traded popular prospect Roberto Kelly for Paul O'Neill, whose fiery persona and play would become a cornerstone for the team. This foundation paid off with Yankee championships in 1996, and from 1998–2000. However, Michael was fired before the Yankees dynasty began,

 

michael never really won anything while he was GM though, it's not like they were winning the WS and then fired him. Bob Watson was the GM for the first WS fwiw


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#132 Mike Brown

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 11:35 PM

michael never really won anything while he was GM though, it's not like they were winning the WS and then fired him. Bob Watson was the GM for the first WS fwiw

 

Yea but Gene built the foundation for those WS teams.  He built up the farm system, and that is what got us those WS titles.  That farm system provided us the assets in order to build a WS dynasty.

 

Some trades we were able to make using our own prospect pool......

Roberto Kelly for Paul O'Neill

Eric Milton, Christian Guzman for Chuck Knoblauch

Russ Davis and Sterling Hitchcock for Tino Martinez, Jeff Nelson, and Jim Mecir.

 

We also developed Jorge, Mo, Jeter. Pettitte, and Bernie.

Some lesser known guys like Homer Bush, Ricky Ledee, Shane Spencer, etc.

 

Baseball and hockey are the only two sports where you have a farm system.  And if you wanna have long term success, a deep farm system is a great way to do it.  The Devils haven't had a deep farm system in a long time.  We haven't been good at drafting since the Parises and Zajacs.  Larsson was more of a gimme pick.  There's more than one way to build a perennial contending team.  But a deep farm system is the best way to do it.


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#133 Marshall

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 03:34 AM

Thats fair about Shero's situation but keep in mind that what im trying to point out that you have to adapt to situations. In his specific situation he can still trade those players in the future if he's strapped and get a really good return for them, it's certainly not a loss on his side. Plus it was not about being able to resign all the other guys since he made him a pretty good offer, and only acted after he refused, it was not about the money. It comes down to "he did what he had to and figured he would not be able to keep Staal before it was too late to minimize the loss."

 

And i disagree about the "crafty" thing, it's not crafty it's black on white repetitive procedure. Like i mentioned earlier his one and only approach worked in the past cause we had a good team that guys wanted to play for. It's kind of like a super hot bitch, she can do wtv she want and let guys hang on for months she knows she can get them when she has to. Well Lou is not too hot anymore lol

 

So my whole point is that you have to adjust to certain situations in order to get the best results. If you "automate" an approach you will fail in the cases where a different approach would have been needed 100% of the time.

 

Be specific then - should Lou have traded Clarkson and Parise? What the hell is it that you want? 


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#134 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 07:52 AM

Be specific then - should Lou have traded Clarkson and Parise? What the hell is it that you want? 

 

SD and others of his ilk want to be able to second-guess everything Lou does when things doesn't work out.  "Well then he should have done THIS, he should have done THAT."  They're no different from the fans who think every game on the schedule is a winnable entity.  No matter what Lou does, no matter what approach he takes, at some point, there's going to be a valley.  To his credit, I think he's done what he could to try to stave it off.  After Kovy left, Lou could've said "Maybe it's time to step back a little," even though he knew he was going to lose his 1st-rounder, but he didn't do that.  He tried to get some bodies in here that could help, and a lot of us did like the moves he was making as he was making them.  

 

Since SD just loves to bitch, whine and moan about Lou's approach as of late, let's analyze the last three seasons, which I guess could be called a "dark period", in that the team missed the playoffs two out of the last three seasons:

 

2010-11:  NO ONE saw that first half from hell coming.  Classic case of everything that could go wrong went wrong in that first half...injuries, some players woefully underperforming.  Easy to knock the choice of John MacLean as head coach, but he had been with the organization for a while and had done a solid job in the AHL.  All things considered, that team did a nice job recovering...they could have bailed, quit, but they didn't, even though they were never really a factor in the playoff race. 

 

2011-12:  Got all the way to the SC Finals.  Some would now like to call this a fluke, but I don't think it was...yes, moreso than ever, the NHL playoffs have a crapshoot feel to them, and they could have lost to Florida in the first round...but they DIDN'T.  I'm not going to take anything away from the Devils.

 

2013:  Unfortunately, a lot of this year was a case of both goalies, both of whom had played well the year before, seemingly getting old overnight.  The terrible aggregate save% was a killer.  We know how bad both of them were, though both were good at times...of course, the team also stopped scoring.  One can make an argument that Kinkaid could've been given some starts when Hedberg was playing some God-awful hockey.  Hedberg was comically bad from 2/16 to 3/9 (9 consecutive starts)...he put up an .856 save% in those games.  I think based on the year both goalies had in 2011-12, DeBoer just kept hoping they would get it going, but I think he probably gave Hedberg a longer leash than he deserved, and let's face it, the plan was never for Hedberg to play in 19 games that season...Marty getting hurt necessitated it.  That was also the first year the Devils weren't successful in shootouts and OT...they went 2-7 in the the shootout and 1-3 in OT (3-10 combined).   

 

Re:  Clarkson, yeah, like Tri said, Devils really weren't in a position to trade him, and even if they did, I don't think the return would've been that great...by the time the deadline had rolled around, the goals had stopped going in for him.  Probably a couple of middle-round draft picks, a mid-rounder and a middling prospect, maybe.  Teams would've tried to get him on the cheap.   

 

I think Marshall states it perfectly SD...what exactly is it that you want from Lou?  You bitch about his approach, but it has mostly worked for him, and you seem to think if he had changed his approach or "adapted" to what you think he should now be, that everything would be fine.  There's teams that HAVE taken the tact you want Lou to now take (Tampa Bay, Ottawa...both teams locked up their stars before they got away), and it didn't work out for them either.  I think you're also forgetting that Lou DID lose key players to UFA even when you claim his approach "worked", and made it sound like everyone was willing to stick around for market value or less just because the Devils were successful.  Alexander Mogilny, Bobby Holik, Doug Gilmour...and Mogilny and Holik left when the Devils were at their peak...Mogilny took off after playing in consecutive Cup finals, and Holik left the following season.  We all know part of the problem is:  when guys have been leaving as of late, the Devils don't have the youth that can step in and either replace what was lost (like Madden did for Holik), or fortify already strong areas (like Rafalski did), but it all goes back to the same premise...no matter what approach a GM takes, there's bound to be a period where things don't go your way, where even the on-paper "makes sense" move doesn't work out.  You seem to think that almost the second a certain approach doesn't pay dividends, then it's time to switch, and that somehow making the switch will almost automatically pay off. 


Edited by Colorado Rockies 1976, 06 November 2013 - 07:57 AM.

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#135 EdgeControl

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 08:20 AM

Nobody really knows.  There's a lot of theories going around.

this is the only move that is mindboggling, it was the perfect situation to correct the kovy mess. WHY???


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#136 NewarkDevil5

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 09:14 AM

Bill Torrey was essentially forced out of Long Island.  I'm pretty sure Jerry Jones canned Tex Schramm in addition to Tom Landry when he took over the Cowboys.  But yeah it is pretty rare.

 

Probably closest and best example to Lou's situation. Bill Torrey built one of the greatest dynasties in post-expansion history. They've got a banner hanging in the Mausoleum for him complete with a bowtie and it is absolutely 100% deserved. At the end though, he tried to start a rebuild and the ownership just wasn't along for the ride and they pretty much forced him out. Stupid move that they've been paying for on the Island ever since. Torrey then went on to build an expansion team in Florida that went to the Cup Finals (lost, but still went) within 3 years of opening shop.


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#137 SterioDesign

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 09:18 AM

Be specific then - should Lou have traded Clarkson and Parise? What the hell is it that you want? 

 

I'll say it again, ALL i'd want from Lou is to give up his dumb rule of not talking during the season. At least make exceptions in SOME cases. There's absolutely NO good reasons not to do it in some cases. It's out of pure stubbornness.

 

There's cases and examples all around the league of good deals that we're made during the season and i'm convinced that if some of those guys would have been put in a situation that 2 weeks before free agency they still didnt have a legit offer or a contract, they'd consider waiting a few weeks looking at offers and whats out there. Zach himself said it in an interview with TG. 

 

And players ALWAYS say they are glad it's been dealt with so it's not in the back of their heads not knowing what would be up post-playoffs. They can say they don't think about it and focus on playing hockey all they want to the media, it's there. Again, Elias himself said it was bothering him too. Again it's not all players and most players are signed a week before free agency we all know that but there's definitely some players/cases that you really have to deal with differently, you can't take chances.

 

Get this, i know Lou's track record is good. But again i'll bring this up, he never had to have the best approach cause his team was always contending or had great players so guys would want to stay there. But thats like me when i was a kid, we had a game of "chicken" of few of my buddies, there was a street going down and the main road was crossing. We told each other than when we'd go down on our bikes that we'd NEVER put the brakes on. If there was cars or wtv, try to go faster to get by them before they pass or make a crazy slide or tight turn before the road, but we couldnt put the brakes on. Thats pretty fvcking dumb right. I did it for over 5 years. NEVER got hit by a car and i've been down that street daily for years. Does that mean it's all good then? Absolutely not. Get the metaphor here, track record is not everything. Lou is not in the same settings that he was before, it's all new to him he can't expect and rely on the same loyalty than he had earlier in his career.


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#138 Marshall

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 09:34 AM

I'll say it again, ALL i'd want from Lou is to give up his dumb rule of not talking during the season. At least make exceptions in SOME cases. There's absolutely NO good reasons not to do it in some cases. It's out of pure stubbornness.

 

There's cases and examples all around the league of good deals that we're made during the season and i'm convinced that if some of those guys would have been put in a situation that 2 weeks before free agency they still didnt have a legit offer or a contract, they'd consider waiting a few weeks looking at offers and whats out there. Zach himself said it in an interview with TG. 

 

 

OK. How many players on the Devils, post-lockout, does this apply to? Two? Three, tops? 


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#139 Triumph

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 09:35 AM

I'll say it again, ALL i'd want from Lou is to give up his dumb rule of not talking during the season. At least make exceptions in SOME cases. There's absolutely NO good reasons not to do it in some cases. It's out of pure stubbornness.

 

There's cases and examples all around the league of good deals that we're made during the season and i'm convinced that if some of those guys would have been put in a situation that 2 weeks before free agency they still didnt have a legit offer or a contract, they'd consider waiting a few weeks looking at offers and whats out there. Zach himself said it in an interview with TG. 

 

And players ALWAYS say they are glad it's been dealt with so it's not in the back of their heads not knowing what would be up post-playoffs. They can say they don't think about it and focus on playing hockey all they want to the media, it's there. Again, Elias himself said it was bothering him too. Again it's not all players and most players are signed a week before free agency we all know that but there's definitely some players/cases that you really have to deal with differently, you can't take chances.

 

Get this, i know Lou's track record is good. But again i'll bring this up, he never had to have the best approach cause his team was always contending or had great players so guys would want to stay there. But thats like me when i was a kid, we had a game of "chicken" of few of my buddies, there was a street going down and the main road was crossing. We told each other than when we'd go down on our bikes that we'd NEVER put the brakes on. If there was cars or wtv, try to go faster to get by them before they pass or make a crazy slide or tight turn before the road, but we couldnt put the brakes on. Thats pretty fvcking dumb right. I did it for over 5 years. NEVER got hit by a car and i've been down that street daily for years. Does that mean it's all good then? Absolutely not. Get the metaphor here, track record is not everything. Lou is not in the same settings that he was before, it's all new to him he can't expect and rely on the same loyalty than he had earlier in his career.

 

http://sports.espn.g...tory?id=2308828

 

In addition, the more that comes out, the more that Lou couldn't seriously talk contract with Parise in season because his owner was broke.  Lou has talked about the things he couldn't do because of ownership and he's talked about the 'extenuating circumstances' with Parise.  Doesn't take a genius to connect the dots here.


Edited by Triumph, 06 November 2013 - 09:36 AM.

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#140 Marshall

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 09:40 AM

http://sports.espn.g...tory?id=2308828

 

In addition, the more that comes out, the more that Lou couldn't seriously talk contract with Parise in season because his owner was broke.  Lou has talked about the things he couldn't do because of ownership and he's talked about the 'extenuating circumstances' with Parise.  Doesn't take a genius to connect the dots here.

 

Wasn't there a report out there about how Zach was offered 7/49, was thinking about accepting, but his agent urged him to hold out because he could get the bigger ticket if he went UFA?


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