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If the team continues to struggle, does Lou start to feel the heat?


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#141 SterioDesign

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 09:55 AM

OK. How many players on the Devils, post-lockout, does this apply to? Two? Three, tops? 

 

It's irrelevant to my point. This goes in circles. It's not about what happened, it's simply about his mentality with which he's taking absolute unnecessary risks. Lou has the best GM IMO, don't get me wrong with what im saying, but the sad things is that he could have been even better simply by not restraining himself for no reasons. God knows the players we could have had for cheaper maybe or re-signed if it would have been dealt with earlier. Maybe just 1 or 2 in 20 years for all we know. But there's no way around it, it's not the best way to go to risk assets and put yourself in a situation where it's too late to act if things don't go your way.

 

!- In every cases taking place in the last 20 years there's many variables other than Lou's approach (team success, family, money, etc etc) that made the results what they we're so we can't look at the "whole procedure" and say it works. 

 

2- If you had a business, would you run things that way if you want to minimize your long term losses? It's literally a leap of faith every time. By not taking early Lou is sure to lose for nothing every single players that he can't reach an agreement with. There's many cases like that all around the league, it sucks but thats what it is.

 

I also think Clarkson would may have fetch more than what you guys think, even just a forward prospect would have been huge looking at what we have now, that's if Lou (with the knowledge that Clarkson wanted way too much for what he was willing to give) would have decided it was the right move to take. What happened is that he went into the playoffs simply thinking he could re-sign him, clearly he was wrong and figured after some talks that it was not happening and gave up on him after the trade deadline. A simple talk "could" have changed that. Would it have been worth it? God knows. But its always better to have the option than nothing.


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#142 devilsrule33

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 09:56 AM

 

Re:  Clarkson, yeah, like Tri said, Devils really weren't in a position to trade him, and even if they did, I don't think the return would've been that great...by the time the deadline had rolled around, the goals had stopped going in for him.  Probably a couple of middle-round draft picks, a mid-rounder and a middling prospect, maybe.  Teams would've tried to get him on the cheap.   

 

 

I'll disagree on Clarkson. He's the type of player teams would love to have at the deadline for a playoff run. Had a Cup run experience, goal scorer, gritty, physical, etc. And by seeing the free agent interest he got, I bet teams might have been very interested. 

 

Ryane Clowe was traded for two 2nds and a 3rd, and he hadn't even scored a goal in 28 games. I bet Lou could have gotten at least that for Clarkson.


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#143 SterioDesign

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 09:57 AM

http://sports.espn.g...tory?id=2308828

 

In addition, the more that comes out, the more that Lou couldn't seriously talk contract with Parise in season because his owner was broke.  Lou has talked about the things he couldn't do because of ownership and he's talked about the 'extenuating circumstances' with Parise.  Doesn't take a genius to connect the dots here.

 

Don't bring up Zach i know thats a different situation with lots of stuff in the background. And i said i was not talking about Zach at all. 


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#144 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 10:01 AM

Get this, i know Lou's track record is good. But again i'll bring this up, he never had to have the best approach cause his team was always contending or had great players so guys would want to stay there.

 

I pointed out two pretty prime examples of guys who didn't want to stay with the Devils when they were contending, in Holik and Mogilny.  Bill Guerin demanded a trade when the Devils were contending as well.  You make it sound like all of the Devils' good players wanted to stay back in the day.  They didn't.  Look at the roster turnover from 2000 to 2003...the Devils made the Finals in three out of four seasons, won two Cups, and still had significant guys who left...hell, the team even employed four different head coaches in that time.  There's exactly 10 skaters who played in the playoffs on both the 2000 and 2003 Cup champs.  Some of those 10 stayed out of loyalty, and some simply had little negotiating power (like Niedermayer, who missed a big chunk of the 2000-01 as Lou played hardball).  Rafalski and Madden were special cases, in that I think Lou missed some deadline in regards to re-signing them, but he signed them both to very fair deals.            


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#145 The 29th Pick

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 10:05 AM

and the great fan favorite (at the time) John Maclean wanted out in "97


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#146 SterioDesign

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 10:11 AM

Wasn't there a report out there about how Zach was offered 7/49, was thinking about accepting, but his agent urged him to hold out because he could get the bigger ticket if he went UFA?

 

That would be a case for any players though, Getzlaf, Perry, etc etc they knew they'd get more if they'd hit free agency, either on their own team or with another team. That's the part where the GM has to find a way to convince the guys to sign there before testing the market.

 

Ultimately i think that without the financial troubles Zach would have stayed in NJ and signed the year before instead of signing that 1 year deal, or i'd like to think that, he was "emotionally" ready to just sign there without digging too much.

 

To me it was just a perfect storm and the timing made up really dig (he said he really had to dig to get some answers about some stuff) and it came down to the financial troubles and the uncertainity of the future in NJ, so many things we're up in the air, who's gonna be in net after Marty? Then after Lou? Very sh!tty prospect pool on the attack (Zach said he looked at everything and put everything in consideration and that the Wild's prospect pool was something he was really excited about and that he saw a good future in Minny based on that, so obviously he tried to projects the future in NJ too)

 

Of course putting of all that on top of being his state hero and playing in front of family, the lockout + signing bonus and all made it an easier choice, he must have felt like jumping off a sinking boat. Saddly some of his worries got better, we got Cory and new owners but him leaving brought up more and more problems at the same time.

 

Saddly there's really not much Lou can do now with what he has to work with


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#147 Marshall

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 10:16 AM

It's irrelevant to my point. This goes in circles. It's not about what happened, it's simply about his mentality with which he's taking absolute unnecessary risks. Lou has the best GM IMO, don't get me wrong with what im saying, but the sad things is that he could have been even better simply by not restraining himself for no reasons. God knows the players we could have had for cheaper maybe or re-signed if it would have been dealt with earlier. Maybe just 1 or 2 in 20 years for all we know. But there's no way around it, it's not the best way to go to risk assets and put yourself in a situation where it's too late to act if things don't go your way.

 

!- In every cases taking place in the last 20 years there's many variables other than Lou's approach (team success, family, money, etc etc) that made the results what they we're so we can't look at the "whole procedure" and say it works. 

 

2- If you had a business, would you run things that way if you want to minimize your long term losses? It's literally a leap of faith every time. By not taking early Lou is sure to lose for nothing every single players that he can't reach an agreement with. There's many cases like that all around the league, it sucks but thats what it is.

 

I also think Clarkson would may have fetch more than what you guys think, even just a forward prospect would have been huge looking at what we have now, that's if Lou (with the knowledge that Clarkson wanted way too much for what he was willing to give) would have decided it was the right move to take. What happened is that he went into the playoffs simply thinking he could re-sign him, clearly he was wrong and figured after some talks that it was not happening and gave up on him after the trade deadline. A simple talk "could" have changed that. Would it have been worth it? God knows. But its always better to have the option than nothing.

 

So this entire tirade is about nothing. It doesn't apply to Parise, doesn't apply to Martin, not Gionta. You're just making noise because your only way of coping with the position the team is in is to complain about Lou and things he hasn't done. 

 

The Devils were in still in the race when the deadline rolled around and their chances of making the playoffs were much greater with Clarkson than without him, or with whatever prospect they could've gotten back. 


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#148 SterioDesign

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 10:16 AM

I pointed out two pretty prime examples of guys who didn't want to stay with the Devils when they were contending, in Holik and Mogilny.  Bill Guerin demanded a trade when the Devils were contending as well.  You make it sound like all of the Devils' good players wanted to stay back in the day.  They didn't.  Look at the roster turnover from 2000 to 2003...the Devils made the Finals in three out of four seasons, won two Cups, and still had significant guys who left...hell, the team even employed four different head coaches in that time.  There's exactly 10 skaters who played in the playoffs on both the 2000 and 2003 Cup champs.  Some of those 10 stayed out of loyalty, and some simply had little negotiating power (like Niedermayer, who missed a big chunk of the 2000-01 as Lou played hardball).  Rafalski and Madden were special cases, in that I think Lou missed some deadline in regards to re-signing them, but he signed them both to very fair deals.            

 

Well thats fair and perfectly true but you're nitpicking and focusing on a moving target there. Not as if thats my main argument (simply one of the pilled up reasons), i still think the Devils we're more attractive back then than now. I guess thats how i should have said it, how many players with lots of options would sign in Buffalo or with the Flames right now? (at similar offers, of course if they throw ridiculous money at them they might) compared to sign with the Bruins or wtv for fair market price.  


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#149 SterioDesign

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 10:22 AM

So this entire tirade is about nothing. It doesn't apply to Parise, doesn't apply to Martin, not Gionta. You're just making noise because your only way of coping with the position the team is in is to complain about Lou and things he hasn't done. 

 

The Devils were in still in the race when the deadline rolled around and their chances of making the playoffs were much greater with Clarkson than without him, or with whatever prospect they could've gotten back. 

 

yeah if you look at it strictly in a "win now" mode. I know thats the ultimate goal but again you kind of have to find the good in between for the decisions.

 

You don't want to give away too much for a rental not to compromise you're future without some picks/prospects, but at the same time you're perfectly fine with using a guy that you may lose for nothing and have nothing in the future. Quite a weird mentality.


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#150 Triumph

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 10:24 AM

So this entire tirade is about nothing. It doesn't apply to Parise, doesn't apply to Martin, not Gionta. You're just making noise because your only way of coping with the position the team is in is to complain about Lou and things he hasn't done. 

 

The Devils were in still in the race when the deadline rolled around and their chances of making the playoffs were much greater with Clarkson than without him, or with whatever prospect they could've gotten back. 

 

Trading Clarkson would've been a give-up.  Period.  It's giving up.  There are spots where this sort of trade makes sense and that wasn't one - the Devils didn't have someone as good as Clarkson behind him.  Clarkson also wasn't so valuable that the team had to get assets for him (a la Ilya Kovalchuk, who Atlanta traded while still in the playoff race).  They stuck with him, he left for more money.  The Devils got 6 full seasons out of him and paid him $10.4 million dollars.  I'll take it, especially when early returns are that he was a product of Elias last year - we'll see how his shot rate does this year, but if it stays below 3, that's trouble for Toronto.


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#151 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 10:25 AM

Well thats fair and perfectly true but you're nitpicking and focusing on a moving target there. Not as if thats my main argument (simply one of the pilled up reasons), i still think the Devils we're more attractive back then than now. I guess thats how i should have said it, how many players with lots of options would sign in Buffalo or with the Flames right now? (at similar offers, of course if they throw ridiculous money at them they might) compared to sign with the Bruins or wtv for fair market price.  

 

So now pointing out examples of where you're 100% wrong about the Devils' better players automatically wanting to stay because the team was contending qualifies as "nitpicking".  Same old SD...people poke holes through some of your posts, and somehow they're wrong for doing so.  Outstanding. 


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THE NHL MUST LOVE THE DEVILS - from who else? A RANGER fan!
[Mark Messier]: A big, bald attention whore with a stupid Easter Island-lookin face. - from who else? DaneykoIsGod!

Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.
Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime?
- Most priceless quote ever posted on a message board.

Martin Brodeur: THE MOST ALL-TIME WINS!, 12 straight seasons of 30+ wins, 3 Stanley Cups, 4 Vezina Trophies, and zero respect from too many so-called Devils "fans" who are either too young or too bandwagon to remember the much darker days of Sean Burke, Craig Billington, Bob Sauve, Alain Chevrier, and the talented but overwhelmed Chico Resch, among many others.

It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

#30 FOREVER!

20 out of 1,946 njdevs.com members agree: CR1976 is the Most Knowledgable Poster of 2008! Victory is mine...oh yes, victory is mine!

#152 The 29th Pick

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 10:29 AM

Lets see what Lou does this year at the trade deadline....if we're close to a playoff spot, does he move people, or keep them in hope of making the playoffs, and losing players for nothing OR not trading players that we would like to get rid of because of bad contracts.


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#153 Triumph

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 10:40 AM

So now pointing out examples of where you're 100% wrong about the Devils' better players automatically wanting to stay because the team was contending qualifies as "nitpicking".  Same old SD...people poke holes through some of your posts, and somehow they're wrong for doing so.  Outstanding. 

 

In fairness to him, it was a different world before the salary cap, the Devils simply didn't have the money to keep those players, and other teams did.  Getting involved in free agency was usually stupid, which is why Lou signed no prominent free agents and only retained Stevens, Daneyko, and McKay as guys significantly over 31.

 

Holik wanted to leave, but I believe it was reported that Mogilny called Lou with the Leafs final offer seeing if he could match and Lou said 'Take it'.  


Edited by Triumph, 06 November 2013 - 10:44 AM.

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#154 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 10:56 AM

In fairness to him, it was a different world before the salary cap, the Devils simply didn't have the money to keep those players, and other teams did.  Getting involved in free agency was usually stupid, which is why Lou signed no prominent free agents and only retained Stevens, Daneyko, and McKay as guys significantly over 31.

 

Holik wanted to leave, but I believe it was reported that Mogilny called Lou with the Leafs final offer seeing if he could match and Lou said 'Take it'.  

 

I know the pre-cap world was different, but SD comes off like he thinks players were so enamoured with playing for the "contending" Devils that they were willing to take less money to do it, make personal sacrifices to be a part of the Devils, and were all about loyalty.  Clearly that's not the case.  With some guys, sure.  But like I pointed out, some guys did leave for various reasons (like $$$), and some of the ones who did stay didn't have much choice, due to the higher UFA age back then.  My point is that it's not nearly as black-and-white as he's making it sound.  

 

And the Devils weren't that attractive a destination back then for a lot of players, and they still aren't now.  Yeah, there were guys who became part of the team through being drafted (or undrafted, for that matter) and coming up through the Devils' system, and there's guys who fit in nicely and learned to like playing through the Devils once they were traded here.  But even then, even when the Devils were getting to Cup finals or putting up terrific regular-season records, I don't think too many players who had free will in choosing where to play were thinking "I'd love to go play for the Devils."   


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THE NHL MUST LOVE THE DEVILS - from who else? A RANGER fan!
[Mark Messier]: A big, bald attention whore with a stupid Easter Island-lookin face. - from who else? DaneykoIsGod!

Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.
Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime?
- Most priceless quote ever posted on a message board.

Martin Brodeur: THE MOST ALL-TIME WINS!, 12 straight seasons of 30+ wins, 3 Stanley Cups, 4 Vezina Trophies, and zero respect from too many so-called Devils "fans" who are either too young or too bandwagon to remember the much darker days of Sean Burke, Craig Billington, Bob Sauve, Alain Chevrier, and the talented but overwhelmed Chico Resch, among many others.

It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

#30 FOREVER!

20 out of 1,946 njdevs.com members agree: CR1976 is the Most Knowledgable Poster of 2008! Victory is mine...oh yes, victory is mine!

#155 sundstrom

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 11:05 AM

Wasn't there a report out there about how Zach was offered 7/49, was thinking about accepting, but his agent urged him to hold out because he could get the bigger ticket if he went UFA?

 

Yes and No. There was no "report" but I posted it on this board through a pretty good source (not a player). It did come from within the Devils organization, which is why I won't put it as fact because these things just don't seem to leak. But it was strong enough that I trusted it.

 

re: signing Parise early - JVB's finances were clearly involved but I also think they did choose Kovalchuk in summer 2010 and figured they had time on Parise. It quite possible the league put the screws to JVB to not do another long term deal for Parise but once the 2011 season started, Parise was going to have to get the big lockoutproof signing bonus and JVB had no chance at that. That's the financial concerns that are probably alluded to.

In fairness to him, it was a different world before the salary cap, the Devils simply didn't have the money to keep those players, and other teams did.  Getting involved in free agency was usually stupid, which is why Lou signed no prominent free agents and only retained Stevens, Daneyko, and McKay as guys significantly over 31.

 

Holik wanted to leave, but I believe it was reported that Mogilny called Lou with the Leafs final offer seeing if he could match and Lou said 'Take it'.  

 

You are right on Mogilny - he has talked about it before and I actually had it "confirmed" through a player still on the team at the time.


also, SD, why do you ignore zajac when talking about re-signing key players early? that's a pretty big example.


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#156 The 29th Pick

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 11:20 AM

 

You are right on Mogilny - he has talked about it before and I actually had it "confirmed" through a player still on the team at the time.


 

I think I heard Mogilny said he wanted to stay and asked Lou (or agent) to match the Leafs offer which was only $250,000 more, but Lou didn't budge

now who's the cheapskate...Lou for not budging or Al-Mo for leaving over 250k


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#157 dmann422

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 11:29 AM

Resigning players early can work the other way too, you know. Imagine Lou resigning gionta and Gomez before they went fa to the contracts they got elsewhere (didn't look terrible at the time and at least gionta was decent for a few years)...

But we'd be killing him for tying up big money in two guys who underperform (kinda like some do with a current devil...hmmm)
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#158 dmann422

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 11:33 AM

I think I heard Mogilny said he wanted to stay and asked Lou (or agent) to match the Leafs offer which was only $250,000 more, but Lou didn't budge
now who's the cheapskate...Lou for not budging or Al-Mo for leaving over 250k

I can't fault either in that situation really. Lou had a set price he wanted to pay, and mogilny went with the best offer. Maybe he even felt slighted knowing Lou didn't think he was worth an extra 250k.

Ultimately, I never harbor ill will to any fa who goes to the money... (Yes, not even parise)...I would do the same.

Edited by dmann422, 06 November 2013 - 11:37 AM.

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#159 The 29th Pick

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 11:55 AM

Resigning players early can work the other way too, you know. Imagine Lou resigning gionta and Gomez before they went fa to the contracts they got elsewhere (didn't look terrible at the time and at least gionta was decent for a few years)...

But we'd be killing him for tying up big money in two guys who underperform (kinda like some do with a current devil...hmmm)

yeah I think alot depends on who's gonna replace these players that walk.....this is why Lou locked up Travis and Adam for decent sized contracts......he had to


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#160 SterioDesign

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 12:25 PM

So now pointing out examples of where you're 100% wrong about the Devils' better players automatically wanting to stay because the team was contending qualifies as "nitpicking".  Same old SD...people poke holes through some of your posts, and somehow they're wrong for doing so.  Outstanding. 

 

lol wow i never said players were "automatically" staying here because the team was contending don't put words in my mouth, you're exaggerating what im saying big time. You're twisting wtv im saying to make it look bad thats different. You're simply fed up with me and wtv im saying you'll take it the wrong way every single time even if its not.

 

Is it true or not that the Devils we're "more appealing" to re-sign for years ago? Before the finances we're a mess and before the team was actually missing the playoffs back to back years. 

 

Is it true that Lou has more convincing to do now with free agents from where the team stands right now? Saying he really want to put back the team on track and that the financial troubles would be taken care of soon and not to worry about? Cmon tell me, is that true or not? 


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