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#61 MantaRay

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 12:04 AM

But without Kovalchuk, the Devils are at-best a second round exit. I doubt very seriously you believe they would have come that close to the Stanley Cup if Ilya wasn't a Devil.


We played our best game during the playoffs when Kovy was out. The playoffs that year was a complete fluke. You could make the same argument that without Salvador leading all defensemen in playoff scoring we are out in the second round. The heroics if Gionta and the fourth line and Parise and Marty leading the team against the Rangers was just epic. But that was a complete fluke.
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#62 caron14

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 12:14 AM

We played our best game during the playoffs when Kovy was out. The playoffs that year was a complete fluke. You could make the same argument that without Salvador leading all defensemen in playoff scoring we are out in the second round. The heroics if Gionta and the fourth line and Parise and Marty leading the team against the Rangers was just epic. But that was a complete fluke.

We played well one game without him, but there is no way we would beat the rangers without him... Kovalchuk was a keypart of our team we cant denied it. Zach parise was a key part too... But go ahead new player is coming new key part and all you need for a playoff run is to make the playoff...

 

Once you make the playoff anything can happen! the 1995 stanley cup devils wasnt suppose to win...  We always win as underdog, and we have to focus on the same thing here. We cant denied who we are and what we represent.

 

I want this team to be in the playoffs, then i want to believe. (remember the best player in the 2003 team had 57 points)


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#63 Mike Brown

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 12:22 AM

We played our best game during the playoffs when Kovy was out. The playoffs that year was a complete fluke. You could make the same argument that without Salvador leading all defensemen in playoff scoring we are out in the second round. The heroics if Gionta and the fourth line and Parise and Marty leading the team against the Rangers was just epic. But that was a complete fluke.

 

Um what?  How can you say that?  Salvador didn't play any different during the playoffs than he did during the regular season.  He got most of his points literally by just tossing it on net.  Those were the luckiest points I've ever seen.  The only fluke was Elias having the worst postseason of his career.  But he wasn't healthy, and neither was Kovalchuk.  No one player stood out that entire playoffs.  Arguably our best player was Marty.  He had one awful game against Florida, but was great for the other games.


We played well one game without him, but there is no way we would beat the rangers without him... Kovalchuk was a keypart of our team we cant denied it. Zach parise was a key part too... But go ahead new player is coming new key part and all you need for a playoff run is to make the playoff...

 

Once you make the playoff anything can happen! the 1995 stanley cup devils wasnt suppose to win...  We always win as underdog, and we have to focus on the same thing here. We cant denied who we are and what we represent.

 

I want this team to be in the playoffs, then i want to believe. (remember the best player in the 2003 team had 57 points)

 

The 95 Devils and the 2012 Kings were both extremely similar teams.  Neither team had a great regular season, but both teams just steamrolled through everybody come playoff time.


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#64 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 07:48 AM

My guess is that I chalked it up to bad luck, which was certainly a big part of why he struggled, but he didn't fully ever turn it around that year despite the clutch goal scoring.  I don't think people were trying to spin it as a good year, but it's certainly not one.  Nor was his 2012-13.  I just feel like people focus on the Cup run, where Kovalchuk certainly played as well as can be expected given his injury, but I have no idea what the Devils are without Kovalchuk in those 3 years - they certainly would've spent the money on other things (at least in 2011-12), it's questionable on what.

 

2010-11 and 2012-13 weren't good years for sure.  Like I said, the second half of 2010-11 at least gave the fans hope, and his numbers look good at a glance from 1/23/11 on (last 35 GP of 2010-11:  18 G, 16 A, 34 Pts, E)...this could be regarded as a turn-around, even with the insane ice-time he was getting.  Basically, you had this from Kovy, as far as what his best Devils play consisted of:

 

final 35 GP of 2010-11:  35 GP, 18 G, 16 A, 34 Pts, E

2011-12:  77 GP, 37 G, 46 A, 83 Pts, -9

2011-12 playoffs:  23 GP, 8 G, 11 A, 19 Pts, -7

 

Yeah, in the 2011-12 playoffs, guy was playing through an injury, but he did his best to overcome it.  The above numbers do look nice at a quick glance, and with Kovy, you get some pretty goals and dynamic ones, and those have a way of embedding themselves into the positive memory bank.  But we also know that he needed to get a lot of ice time to put those numbers up.  We also know that his shooting%s dropped a bit once he became a Devils (probably a result of facing less backups, among other things).  And we also know that, though he DID improve his all-around game while he was here, he was always going to be a defensive liability. 

 

You said it in another post...Kovy often got compared to other superstars in the league, but he really wasn't one as a Devil, when everything is taken into account.  He was more of a guy who could provide dazzling moments and even terrific stretches (and all of 2011-2012 was a good year, even Kovy's +/- ratings and high ice time can detract from that season), but I think we were already seeing the beginnings of Kovy 2.0 for long stretches in 2010-11 and last season, and it wasn't pretty.   


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Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.
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#65 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 07:57 AM

Um what?  How can you say that?  Salvador didn't play any different during the playoffs than he did during the regular season.  He got most of his points literally by just tossing it on net.  Those were the luckiest points I've ever seen.  The only fluke was Elias having the worst postseason of his career.  But he wasn't healthy, and neither was Kovalchuk.  No one player stood out that entire playoffs.  Arguably our best player was Marty.  He had one awful game against Florida, but was great for the other games.


 

The 95 Devils and the 2012 Kings were both extremely similar teams.  Neither team had a great regular season, but both teams just steamrolled through everybody come playoff time.

 

I've always summed up the '95 Devils like this:  the team played like the '96 Devils for much of that regular season, then played like the '94 Devils in the playoffs (the '94 team could score, the '96 team couldn't).  Lou made a number of moves to try to get the '96 team going, but couldn't do anything about Stephane Richer battling depression (I don't think he was getting treatment for it at the time), losing Claude Lemieux in that ill-fated three-way deal, where he got the worst of the three players dealt (Steve Thomas), and though it's all hindsight now, Lou probably should've gotten rid of Neal Broten before the season...the guy never wanted to be a Devil and wanted no part of NJ, and was pretty much grinning and bearing it in '95.  He was pretty much miserable the entire time he was with the Devils. 


Edited by Colorado Rockies 1976, 15 November 2013 - 07:58 AM.

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THE NHL MUST LOVE THE DEVILS - from who else? A RANGER fan!
[Mark Messier]: A big, bald attention whore with a stupid Easter Island-lookin face. - from who else? DaneykoIsGod!

Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.
Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime?
- Most priceless quote ever posted on a message board.

Martin Brodeur: THE MOST ALL-TIME WINS!, 12 straight seasons of 30+ wins, 3 Stanley Cups, 4 Vezina Trophies, and zero respect from too many so-called Devils "fans" who are either too young or too bandwagon to remember the much darker days of Sean Burke, Craig Billington, Bob Sauve, Alain Chevrier, and the talented but overwhelmed Chico Resch, among many others.

It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

#30 FOREVER!

20 out of 1,946 njdevs.com members agree: CR1976 is the Most Knowledgable Poster of 2008! Victory is mine...oh yes, victory is mine!

#66 coldply123

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 08:25 AM

I've always summed up the '95 Devils like this: the team played like the '96 Devils for much of that regular season, then played like the '94 Devils in the playoffs (the '94 team could score, the '96 team couldn't). Lou made a number of moves to try to get the '96 team going, but couldn't do anything about Stephane Richer battling depression (I don't think he was getting treatment for it at the time), losing Claude Lemieux in that ill-fated three-way deal, where he got the worst of the three players dealt (Steve Thomas), and though it's all hindsight now, Lou probably should've gotten rid of Neal Broten before the season...the guy never wanted to be a Devil and wanted no part of NJ, and was pretty much grinning and bearing it in '95. He was pretty much miserable the entire time he was with the Devils.


Source on the Broten situation? He looked pretty happy to be a Devil when he scored and then raised the Cup.
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#67 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 09:05 AM

Source on the Broten situation? He looked pretty happy to be a Devil when he scored and then raised the Cup.

 

Yeah, duh, of course he was happy to raise the Cup...no one would expect him to be miserable in the moment, and in that first year, he clearly was giving it his all on the ice, but he admitted he was never a Jersey guy.  Just wasn't his thing, just wasn't him.  He also didn't bring his family with him to NJ (he had two young daughters), and a lot of the reason he was having a difficult time was because he missed them (understandable).  And he had been a part of the Minnesota/Dallas organization for his entire NHL career...as the Stars had moved from Minnesota to Dallas just two years before, this was now the second that time Broten, a native Minnesotan, was being uprooted.  I'm not saying he was wrong to be unhappy, just saying it probably would've been better for everyone if he hadn't stayed with the Devils after the Cup win.   

 

Then there was this incident:

 

http://www.nydailyne...rticle-1.728362

 

Ended pretty ugly for him here too:

 

http://www.apnewsarc...918691a16b35fb4


Edited by Colorado Rockies 1976, 15 November 2013 - 09:06 AM.

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THE NHL MUST LOVE THE DEVILS - from who else? A RANGER fan!
[Mark Messier]: A big, bald attention whore with a stupid Easter Island-lookin face. - from who else? DaneykoIsGod!

Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.
Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime?
- Most priceless quote ever posted on a message board.

Martin Brodeur: THE MOST ALL-TIME WINS!, 12 straight seasons of 30+ wins, 3 Stanley Cups, 4 Vezina Trophies, and zero respect from too many so-called Devils "fans" who are either too young or too bandwagon to remember the much darker days of Sean Burke, Craig Billington, Bob Sauve, Alain Chevrier, and the talented but overwhelmed Chico Resch, among many others.

It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

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#68 Triumph

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 09:06 AM

Steve Thomas wasn't the worst player of Wendel Clark and Claude Lemieux - he was probably the 2nd best player.  Thomas was just miserable in NJ and 96 was the only year where he had a large role.


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#69 dmann422

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 09:09 AM

I really think some people blow he kovy situation out of proportion. Like it or not he was a key piece to the cup run and you can't just put that aside as some fluke... It happened get over it.

Take kovy off that team and replace him with an average scorer say someone like Ryder and idk that we do what we did. So in the end IMO What kovy cost us in picks and cap space was probably worth that one shot that we came up 2 games short.

The only regret I can see people have is that kovys contract clearly had an impact on resigning parise, but tbh I don't really want parises contract either.

Edited by dmann422, 15 November 2013 - 09:10 AM.

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#70 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 09:14 AM

Steve Thomas wasn't the worst player of Wendel Clark and Claude Lemieux - he was probably the 2nd best player.  Thomas was just miserable in NJ and 96 was the only year where he had a large role.

 

I would've rather had Wendel Clark over Steve Thomas (in a perfect world, Lemieux simply would've remained a Devil, but circumstances weren't going to allow that to happen), even though every time Clark took the ice, he was an injury risk.  Thomas was coming off a bad year with the Isles...I just wasn't a big fan.   


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THE NHL MUST LOVE THE DEVILS - from who else? A RANGER fan!
[Mark Messier]: A big, bald attention whore with a stupid Easter Island-lookin face. - from who else? DaneykoIsGod!

Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.
Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime?
- Most priceless quote ever posted on a message board.

Martin Brodeur: THE MOST ALL-TIME WINS!, 12 straight seasons of 30+ wins, 3 Stanley Cups, 4 Vezina Trophies, and zero respect from too many so-called Devils "fans" who are either too young or too bandwagon to remember the much darker days of Sean Burke, Craig Billington, Bob Sauve, Alain Chevrier, and the talented but overwhelmed Chico Resch, among many others.

It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

#30 FOREVER!

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#71 DJ Eco

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 09:55 AM

Yeah, duh, of course he was happy to raise the Cup...no one would expect him to be miserable in the moment, and in that first year, he clearly was giving it his all on the ice, but he admitted he was never a Jersey guy.  Just wasn't his thing, just wasn't him.  He also didn't bring his family with him to NJ (he had two young daughters), and a lot of the reason he was having a difficult time was because he missed them (understandable).  And he had been a part of the Minnesota/Dallas organization for his entire NHL career...as the Stars had moved from Minnesota to Dallas just two years before, this was now the second that time Broten, a native Minnesotan, was being uprooted.  I'm not saying he was wrong to be unhappy, just saying it probably would've been better for everyone if he hadn't stayed with the Devils after the Cup win.   

 

Then there was this incident:

 

http://www.nydailyne...rticle-1.728362

 

Ended pretty ugly for him here too:

 

http://www.apnewsarc...918691a16b35fb4

 

 

WOW, never knew about this. Jacques Lemaire's got huge balls.


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#72 TheRedStorm

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 11:22 AM

Yeah, duh, of course he was happy to raise the Cup...no one would expect him to be miserable in the moment, and in that first year, he clearly was giving it his all on the ice, but he admitted he was never a Jersey guy.  Just wasn't his thing, just wasn't him.  He also didn't bring his family with him to NJ (he had two young daughters), and a lot of the reason he was having a difficult time was because he missed them (understandable).  And he had been a part of the Minnesota/Dallas organization for his entire NHL career...as the Stars had moved from Minnesota to Dallas just two years before, this was now the second that time Broten, a native Minnesotan, was being uprooted.  I'm not saying he was wrong to be unhappy, just saying it probably would've been better for everyone if he hadn't stayed with the Devils after the Cup win.   

 

Then there was this incident:

 

http://www.nydailyne...rticle-1.728362

 

Ended pretty ugly for him here too:

 

http://www.apnewsarc...918691a16b35fb4

 

 

His end was ugly for sure but i think you have to look it from a deeper perspective. The All Star break story is a reflection on how much the team was struggling and it was the perfect combination of issues. If the team was winning and playing like cup champions would it have been as big an issue? Probably not. I think this whole thing at the time was a group punishment more then just singling out one player. Broten just told them to shove it and it became a story. I don't see that as being unhappy with NJ or not wanting to be here, just a guy wanting to see his family over the AS break. Besides, this sort of thing wasn't out of character for Vintage Lou and how hardheaded, stubborn and old school Lemaire could really be. 

 

While i am sure the trade came as a shock given his deep ties to the Stars organization, not wanting to move his family being at the perceived "end" of his career, i never saw anyplace where he was openly miserable, didn't want to be in NJ etc. If anything, i think Neal just hung around a season too long instead of looking in the mirror after winning the Cup and thinking of his personal situation. It's funny, though. He went from being written off in Dallas to doing a complete 180 in NJ and winning a Cup (which capped a career most players would kill for). You'd believe after that, he'd think of his family and look in the mirror at age 35. What's left, you know? Cup, Hobey Baker, 1980 Gold....


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#73 devilsrule33

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 11:34 AM

People ignore 2010-11 and while he was far from the only thing wrong, he had 9 goals and 11 assists in 2010 through 36 games, while playing 22 minutes a game and both ends of the power play.  That is insanely awful for a guy who is not good at defense.  

 

2012-13 was also ugly, though not that level of ugly.  Devil fans don't really have context because their best players have typically played around 19 minutes a game, so his bulk stats look good, but they weren't.

 

I'm not ignoring it, but I try and forget that period and think it was a combination of a ton of bad things that led to an anomaly.  But I'll take the 2010-2011/2011-2012 combination of failure and massive success over a 2006-2007/2007-2008 results.  

 

You need super-skilled players in this league. Kovy may have not been close to the Atlanta level, but he still had some game-breaking ability and teams played him or were scared of him during the 2012 playoffs like he still was the Atlanta Kovy.

 

You also need a very good offense when your goaltending isn't at a Rask-Quick-Thomas level. And Brodeur had some great moments, but he was pretty bad in the first round and a part of round 2. Kovy helped overcome that.


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#74 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 11:45 AM

TheRedStorm...I tried to find more links on Broten from that time, but they're hard to come by.  I remember '95 being a tough year for Neal, despite the sudden increase in production as a Devils (47 points in 50 games, between the regular season and the playoffs).  He wasn't happy with his decreased/non-scoring role in Dallas, but he didn't really want to leave the franchise.  I do remember him saying that the trade very much surprised him, in a not-so-good way.  I also remember reading somewhere that NJ did not suit him at all...the area (especially heavily built-up and congested North Jersey) really didn't agree with him.  He was pretty much was living out of a hotel for much of '95 as well.  No, it wasn't like he was talking about being unhappy with the Devils on a daily basis, but I do remember him saying some things about missing his family, about missing the franchise he grew up with, etc.  I think him suddenly producing from a pure points standpoint, and the Devils going on their magical Cup run helped him deal with much of what he was feeling, but once '95-'96 rolled around and the magic was wearing off and the team was suddenly struggling, I think the unhappiness he was dealing with and kind of bottling up started to become more apparent, and he reached the "fvck this, I'm not dealing with this sh!t, let them trade me, fine me, whatever." point. 

 

Clearly the Broten-Millen deal was one that worked, no way the Devils win that Cup without Broten, but I think it was always an uneasy union, especially for Neal.


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[Mark Messier]: A big, bald attention whore with a stupid Easter Island-lookin face. - from who else? DaneykoIsGod!

Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.
Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime?
- Most priceless quote ever posted on a message board.

Martin Brodeur: THE MOST ALL-TIME WINS!, 12 straight seasons of 30+ wins, 3 Stanley Cups, 4 Vezina Trophies, and zero respect from too many so-called Devils "fans" who are either too young or too bandwagon to remember the much darker days of Sean Burke, Craig Billington, Bob Sauve, Alain Chevrier, and the talented but overwhelmed Chico Resch, among many others.

It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

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#75 Daniel

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 11:58 AM

I'm not ignoring it, but I try and forget that period and think it was a combination of a ton of bad things that led to an anomaly.  But I'll take the 2010-2011/2011-2012 combination of failure and massive success over a 2006-2007/2007-2008 results.  

 

You need super-skilled players in this league. Kovy may have not been close to the Atlanta level, but he still had some game-breaking ability and teams played him or were scared of him during the 2012 playoffs like he still was the Atlanta Kovy.

 

You also need a very good offense when your goaltending isn't at a Rask-Quick-Thomas level. And Brodeur had some great moments, but he was pretty bad in the first round and a part of round 2. Kovy helped overcome that.

 

Kovy was awesome in 2010-2011 when Lemaire returned.  He was great in 2011-2012 and was the team's best player during the playoffs, even though he was playing through serious pain.  Last year, the fact remains that the team literally stopped winning games almost immediately after he got hurt. 

 

If one leaves the long-term cap issues out of the equation, the Devils would be a better team with him, so long as Lou would have still have been able to land Jagr.  The powerplay would be better, and we would have won at least one or two of those shootouts.   You could also argue that the penalty kill would be better.

 

I always thought his defensive play was underrated as well, but if Patty is saying it wasn't, I would believe it, although it could be sour grapes on his part. 


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#76 NJDevs4978

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 12:04 PM

If one leaves the long-term cap issues out of the equation, the Devils would be a better team with him, so long as Lou would have still have been able to land Jagr.  The powerplay would be better, and we would have won at least one or two of those shootouts.   You could also argue that the penalty kill would be better. 

 

That's the thing...we wouldn't have gotten Jagr.  He was clearly a response signing to Kovy leaving.  Dare I say Jagr (at least short-term) is actually a better fit than Kovy :blink:  Then again they haven't moved Jagr off RW the way they did Kovy off LW.


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-NHL record for most road wins in the playoffs - 10-1 in '95 and 10-2 in '00
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#77 2ELIAS6

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 12:13 PM

That's the thing...we wouldn't have gotten Jagr.  He was clearly a response signing to Kovy leaving.  Dare I say Jagr (at least short-term) is actually a better fit than Kovy :blink:  Then again they haven't moved Jagr off RW the way they did Kovy off LW.

it was pretty much the best option/attempt they couldve taken signing jagr after chuk left us.. i mean out of what was available we got kinda boned with the free agent market this year and it would figure to happen the year we were in need of decent players the most.
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#78 Daniel

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 12:16 PM

That's the thing...we wouldn't have gotten Jagr.  He was clearly a response signing to Kovy leaving.  Dare I say Jagr (at least short-term) is actually a better fit than Kovy :blink:  Then again they haven't moved Jagr off RW the way they did Kovy off LW.

 

I've heard it both ways.  And I think there was something to the rumors last season that Lou was trying to get Jagr at the deadline.  It was reported by the same Czech source that had Jagr signing with the Devils this offseason. 


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#79 sundstrom

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 12:24 PM

That's the thing...we wouldn't have gotten Jagr.  He was clearly a response signing to Kovy leaving.  Dare I say Jagr (at least short-term) is actually a better fit than Kovy :blink:  Then again they haven't moved Jagr off RW the way they did Kovy off LW.

 

i think jagr still would've been here - zidlicky and ryder would not be.


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“They’re the ones that makes it happen,” Lemaire said. “It’s not us. It’s not me. It’s not the other guy. It’s not the guy before. It’s not the guy after. It’s them. And they have to take care of business.”
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#80 2ELIAS6

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 12:26 PM

i think jagr still would've been here - zidlicky and ryder would not be.

zid was only signed to a one year deal i believe right? with gelinas and merril knocking to get on the big boy team i think zid will be done here after his current contract is up.
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