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Update: Odjick and Parker Battling Effects of Concussions


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#21 '7'

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 11:26 AM

You can't pick and choose?  You mean how fighting is illegal - resulting in an automatic ejection - in basically every other men's league in the world besides those in North America?

 

Scott Parker played 5 minutes a game in his career.  How often was he being bodychecked?  

 

This Odjick thing - who knows what that is the result of, probably head injuries but lots of people without head injuries have similar mental problems.  It's clear he's had other issues related to that, though.

 

It's doesn't matter what inferior low level leagues do. They're not the standard, once the NHL starts taking notes from them, the NHL starts declining (and it is declining)

 

I can guarantee Parker threw checks, and got checked himself more than he got punched in the head. And I'm sure his head hit that glass plenty of times when being shoulder to shoulder checked. That's a big part of it as well. He played when the game was an absolute rugby scrum of constant physical contact and no open ice.


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#22 SMantzas

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 11:28 AM

This is going to be one nasty lawsuit


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#23 '7'

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 11:30 AM

Clearly blows to the head are incredibly bad for the human brain and fighting is something that, I feel, can easily be eliminated from the game without drastically changing the game. The trend has definitely been towards fighters having major issues with symptoms and I don't think its a stretch to assume that the fights could be a cause here. 

 

The "girly men" comment is childish. We tend to forget how vulnerable and important the human brain is. Check the video below.. Maybe NSFW for some. 

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=jHxyP-nUhUY

 

These fighters were overall physical players as well. If you're really interested in getting rid of all head injuries, then put great gazoo helmets on everybody and ban hitting. Ban all on ice contact. Fighting is such a small part of it, plus it's extremely popular with the paying customer. The NHL right now is mired in another dead puck era, do you really want to take more entertainment out of the game?

 

How about sticks to the head, pucks to the head (more prevalent now with the idiotic shot blocking culture that we see) how about for years guys who got their skulls mashed into seamless glass at arenas.


Edited by '7', 04 December 2013 - 11:35 AM.

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#24 TheRedStorm

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 11:39 AM

Karma? Don't know if anyone remembers his quote about Steve Moore (in relation to the Bertuzzi incident):

 

""he always thought he was better than everybody else. He went to Harvard, you know what, blow me. College grad. I never went to college, but I can kick your ass. I'll bring you right down to my IQ level if you want. I'll hit you about four times in the skull, that'll bring you right down."


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#25 dmann422

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 01:53 PM

You can't pick and choose? You mean how fighting is illegal - resulting in an automatic ejection - in basically every other men's league in the world besides those in North America?

Scott Parker played 5 minutes a game in his career. How often was he being bodychecked?

This Odjick thing - who knows what that is the result of, probably head injuries but lots of people without head injuries have similar mental problems. It's clear he's had other issues related to that, though.

this is true and fighting will eventually be gone, but let's face it, head injuries as a whole occur not just from fighting. The nfl is doing everything it can but players are still going down with concussions every other play.

Slowly but surely technology and game rules will need to adapt to compensate for bigger and faster players. As the chorus rises from concerned parents and hungry lawyers changes will be needed.

Probably the saddest thing with nhl players especially is the ones who are tasked with the more physically punishing jobs are compensated much worse than the skill guys who are protected by the league's rules and culture. Look at the Kessel - Scott incident.
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#26 Triumph

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 01:58 PM

These fighters were overall physical players as well. If you're really interested in getting rid of all head injuries, then put great gazoo helmets on everybody and ban hitting. Ban all on ice contact. Fighting is such a small part of it, plus it's extremely popular with the paying customer. The NHL right now is mired in another dead puck era, do you really want to take more entertainment out of the game?

 

How about sticks to the head, pucks to the head (more prevalent now with the idiotic shot blocking culture that we see) how about for years guys who got their skulls mashed into seamless glass at arenas.

 

I'm sorry that you're throwing a fit, but it's obvious that reducing or eliminating fighting would reduce concussions.  It would not make head injuries go away, but no one is arguing that.  

 

One issue that seems obvious from what Parker is saying is that fighters know they are replaceable so they hide their injuries, which no doubt makes things worse.


Edited by Triumph, 04 December 2013 - 01:59 PM.

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#27 devilsrule33

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 02:00 PM

Great article on George Parros by ESPN. His incident on opening night re-opened the fighting debate in hockey.

 

 

Moments pass. With assistance, Parros stumbles to his knees. But his eyes are still closed, and his head wobbles, then he slips back toward the ice, like a drunk on a barroom floor. Medical personnel roll him onto his back, and it's then that he opens his eyes and comes to and sees the ceiling of the Bell Centre, its banners and steel grids and lights.

Parros feels a dull panic. He knows something happened, but he's not sure what. He is carried away on a stretcher and catches sight of his worried wife, Tiffany, as medical staff load him into an ambulance. He feels the panic again. In this moment, he is not worried that he has suffered a serious head injury. He is not worried about the blood on his face. He is not worrying about when he might play again. He is worried that Orr knocked him out, a tough guy's greatest indignity. Tiffany grew up in a hockey family -- they met when her brother, Josh, played in juniors with Parros -- and she seems to know what's on her husband's mind. So she reassures him. "You didn't get knocked out!" she says.

As the ambulance moves, Parros is relieved.

 

And just some interesting things about the life of a fighter that don't have to do with the debate and health.

 

 

He has his own tough-guy methodology, a science of its own, and as he explains it over beers, it's sensible enough to almost make you believe it will work. Parros fights primarily to protect teammates. He fights to pump up his team and to calm it down. Parros usually fights on his first shift if he's outsized -- if, for instance, he's facing Buffalo's John Scott, a 6'8" missile. Parros fights after he misses a goal, as penance, and after he scores, striving for the Gordie Howe hat trick -- a goal, an assist and a fight. And Parros sometimes fights as a favor to other fighters. As Scott says, "In one of my first fights, my team was down three goals in the third. I said to George, 'You wanna go?' George said, 'Not really. But you'll owe me one.' Now anytime he wants to fight me, I will."

But the reasons Parros doesn't fight are more essential to his long-term health. For one, he doesn't fight if he's angry; that would lead him to take wild swings and leave his body exposed. For another, he doesn't fight because he needs to, as if satisfying a barbaric urge. "If I didn't have to fight, I wouldn't," he says. "If I could score goals for a living, I would. It's a lot more fun, and I'd make a lot more money."

 

http://espn.go.com/n...ting-goon-fight


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#28 '7'

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 04:42 PM

I'm sorry that you're throwing a fit, but it's obvious that reducing or eliminating fighting would reduce concussions.  It would not make head injuries go away, but no one is arguing that.  

 

One issue that seems obvious from what Parker is saying is that fighters know they are replaceable so they hide their injuries, which no doubt makes things worse.

 

It would, but it would also reduce fans. So the NHL can go ahead with this at their own peril. 

 

Hitting, clean and dirty...probably results in 95% of the concussions we see. Why aren't the crybabies going after hitting? Because they've always had an anti fighting agenda, because this segment of the game offends them in some way and they feel it's too prehistoric or uncouth or something. Well it doesn't offend most of us...


Edited by '7', 04 December 2013 - 04:47 PM.

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#29 dmann422

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 04:49 PM

It would, but it would also reduce fans. So the NHL can go ahead with this at their own peril.

do you really think there is a significant contingent of fans who would turn away if fighting is done away with? I understand there are traditionalists but I think if there is a slow process of eliminating it, I don't see many people just getting up and walking away from the sport because it's phased out.
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#30 Triumph

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 04:51 PM

It would, but it would also reduce fans. So the NHL can go ahead with this at their own peril. 

 

Hitting, clean and dirty...probably results in 95% of the concussions we see. Why aren't the crybabies going after hitting? Because they've always had an anti fighting agenda, because this segment of the game offends them in some way and they feel it's too prehistoric or uncouth or something. Well it doesn't offend most of us...

 

There's a small segment that would miss the dancing bears enough to tune out.  Fights overall would be missed more.  Still, fighting is down and revenues are up.  Thing is that fighting is just growing less and less relevant - it's being eaten from the lower levels up, and more guys come from leagues where it's not allowed. 

 

The NHL is certainly trying to limit hits to the head, and body checking will certainly be curtailed by rules changes in the next 10-15 years.  


Edited by Triumph, 04 December 2013 - 04:51 PM.

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#31 ATLL765

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 05:57 PM

It would, but it would also reduce fans. So the NHL can go ahead with this at their own peril. 

 

Hitting, clean and dirty...probably results in 95% of the concussions we see. Why aren't the crybabies going after hitting? Because they've always had an anti fighting agenda, because this segment of the game offends them in some way and they feel it's too prehistoric or uncouth or something. Well it doesn't offend most of us...

C'mon, it's absolutely ridiculous to equate fighting and hitting in the game of hockey. Fighting doesn't occur during the actual game, the game is literally stopped for the fight. Hitting occurs in the game, during the flow of play and can have an effect on the outcome. I really doubt fights truly effect the other aspects of the game in a meaningful way.

And this is coming from someone who doesn't mind the occasional fight.


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#32 '7'

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 06:21 PM

There's a small segment that would miss the dancing bears enough to tune out.  Fights overall would be missed more.  Still, fighting is down and revenues are up.  Thing is that fighting is just growing less and less relevant - it's being eaten from the lower levels up, and more guys come from leagues where it's not allowed. 

 

The NHL is certainly trying to limit hits to the head, and body checking will certainly be curtailed by rules changes in the next 10-15 years.  

 

Are revenues up? If you truly want to take the temperature of the league, look at the 3 lockouts in 18 years, the constant ownership turmoil, the fiascos in Ottawa, Buffalo, NYI, NJ, NYI again, Pittsburgh, Atlanta, NYI yet again, look at the empty seats in Detroit and Phoenix who has been on the NHL ventilator for 4 years already.

 

UFC and pro wrestling are now killing the NHL in ratings, and basketball has blown passed it since the days they were on level footing in the early 90's.

 

The NHL only stands to lose by eliminating fighting. They will gain nothing out of it


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#33 mouse

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 06:35 PM

Are revenues up? If you truly want to take the temperature of the league, look at the 3 lockouts in 18 years, the constant ownership turmoil, the fiascos in Ottawa, Buffalo, NYI, NJ, NYI again, Pittsburgh, Atlanta, NYI yet again, look at the empty seats in Detroit and Phoenix who has been on the NHL ventilator for 4 years already.

Right, because this has anything to do with fighting. Let's just list random problems and  say it's relevant. I used to be in favor of fighting. Now I'm much less so. Especially considering fighters seem to have a dispropotionally high amount of serious brain injuries after their careers, despite playing FEWER minutes. While all the stuff you listed has an effect on head injuries, if that was the main reason, fighters would have the same amount of long term effets, or fewer. Right now, the evidence doesn't bear that out. I'll miss fighting, but it doesn't seem to be worth the cost. And if I'm a crybaby for giving a sh!t about another human being, sorry. Id just as soon not root for a gladiatorial game.


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#34 Daniel

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 06:40 PM

I guess what gets lost in this, especially if we're talking about goons in the last fifteen years, is that they've been paid a ton of money for it. I would imagine that Cam Jannsen, John Scott, Andrew Peters, and all the rest are millionaires by the time they're in their late 20s early 30s. No one wants to admit it, but most of the world would accept the long term effects from concussions as opposed to the daily grind of a $50k a year job the average joe winds up with.


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#35 Triumph

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 06:50 PM

Are revenues up? If you truly want to take the temperature of the league, look at the 3 lockouts in 18 years, the constant ownership turmoil, the fiascos in Ottawa, Buffalo, NYI, NJ, NYI again, Pittsburgh, Atlanta, NYI yet again, look at the empty seats in Detroit and Phoenix who has been on the NHL ventilator for 4 years already.

 

UFC and pro wrestling are now killing the NHL in ratings, and basketball has blown passed it since the days they were on level footing in the early 90's.

 

The NHL only stands to lose by eliminating fighting. They will gain nothing out of it

 

Yes, revenues are up - they just signed an enormous new TV deal in Canada.  Basketball and hockey were never on equal footing.


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#36 dmann422

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 06:56 PM

I guess what gets lost in this, especially if we're talking about goons in the last fifteen years, is that they've been paid a ton of money for it. I would imagine that Cam Jannsen, John Scott, Andrew Peters, and all the rest are millionaires by the time they're in their late 20s early 30s. No one wants to admit it, but most of the world would accept the long term effects from concussions as opposed to the daily grind of a $50k a year job the average joe winds up with.


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I actually made the opposite point in a previous post... The goons and fighters who incur the worst physical beatings are paid much less than the skill guys who the league tries to protect.

And I sure hope they have good insurance policies because they may be millionaires but that's all going to medical costs without it...
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#37 Daniel

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 07:02 PM

I actually made the opposite point in a previous post... The goons and fighters who incur the worst physical beatings are paid much less than the skill guys who the league tries to protect.

And I sure hope they have good insurance policies because they may be millionaires but that's all going to medical costs without it...


Not to make light of it, but the out of pocket medical expenses don't come close to that. That's why the big time plaintiffs attorneys don't get wealthy recovering out of pocket medical expenses for their clients.

If you gave any goon that played in the NHL in the past 15 years the truth serum with a disclosure form that had graphic details of what could happen because of concussions, they would sign on the dotted line without hesitation. I know I would.


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#38 dmann422

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 07:17 PM

Boy I'm sure that Prust-Janssen fight really has fans flocking to the league in drives lol. Waste of 3 mins of my life.

Edited by dmann422, 04 December 2013 - 07:17 PM.

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#39 Devilsfan118

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 07:35 PM

Boy I'm sure that Prust-Janssen fight really has fans flocking to the league in drives lol. Waste of 3 mins of my life.


I've avoided this thread like the plague because I know where it'll lead.. But this is a ridiculous example. Prust stood up for a young teammate that got run by a goon.. It wasn't the most entertaining fight but it certainly wasn't staged.

And my only input: if you're going to ban fighting, you might as well ban shot blocking, slapshots, and open ice hitting. Because all lead to concussions, and we'll eventually get to that point someday at this rate.

It's a contact sport, and they're paid hundreds of thousands or even millions to exchange punches. This stuff is tragic, but, in my mind, it's a workplace hazard. You know the risk when you sign that dotted line. Maybe all blue collar retirees should sue former employers for injuries experienced on the job?

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#40 mouse

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 10:43 PM

It's a contact sport, and they're paid hundreds of thousands or even millions to exchange punches. This stuff is tragic, but, in my mind, it's a workplace hazard. You know the risk when you sign that dotted line. Maybe all blue collar retirees should sue former employers for injuries experienced on the job?

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And I appreciate that. Especially since the NHL, unlike the NFL doesn't seem to have made any of the risks a secret. These guys are grown ups, willingly taking risks. However, as the Olympics have proved, hockey is just as great without fighting, and with larger rinks, both things that could cut down on TBI. I'm not advocating for larger rinks -- it would be a logistical nightmare for one thing -- but we could live without fighting. Fighting goes away in the playoffs. Does that make playoff games less entertaining? Do casual fans stop watching in the playoffs because there's no fighting? I'm not saying we can't have a contact sport, but at this point, the cost of fighting outweighs the benefits, imho.


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