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#181 dmann422

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Posted 03 December 2013 - 02:31 PM

There seem to be 2 issues here and people are conflating them.

1. The 4th line with Sestito and Janssen right now is bad

2. The 4th line is so bad that DeBoer can't use them late in games.

The 1st thing is true. The 2nd thing is not quite true. Sestito has averaged 10 minutes/game as a Devil, and I think they're comfortable with him playing that much if he kills penalties. If he doesn't, 8 minutes isn't that big a deal so long as you split the other 52 minutes fairly evenly among the rest of the forwards. It's when you get into the 3-5 minute range where it becomes a problem.

if Janssen and sestito are going to play every game the rest of the season then I agree this is definitely an issue where added ice time to other guys hurts us.

But when I came in this morning I saw at least 3 posters sound like they were claiming Janssen lost us this game, when in fact the jagr line even with the extra minutes dominated in possession and chances all night but just didn't finish.
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#182 Sneax

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Posted 03 December 2013 - 03:58 PM

I find the people saying "2 goals in the "new nhl" doesn't cut it" to be way off the mark. The top goalies in this league are posting save percentages of like .930+, we are a team that limits chances to around 20 per game. We are not built to score right now, our talent is in net and on defense, if we had quality goal tending last night, and not an aging broduer, we win that game. I don't care what the rest of the nhl does, if your goalie has a .93 save percentage and you limit chances to less than 20-25 shots per game, you don't need to score more than 2 goals a game to win on most nights.

 

As for last night, they had 17 shots on net, and none of them were amazing scoring chances. Scheider stops 2 of 3 goals, and possible the 3rd. Medicore goal tending would have gotten us the win, Al Montoya woulda gotten us a win.


Edited by Sneax, 03 December 2013 - 03:59 PM.

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#183 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 03 December 2013 - 04:37 PM

I find the people saying "2 goals in the "new nhl" doesn't cut it" to be way off the mark. The top goalies in this league are posting save percentages of like .930+, we are a team that limits chances to around 20 per game. We are not built to score right now, our talent is in net and on defense, if we had quality goal tending last night, and not an aging broduer, we win that game. I don't care what the rest of the nhl does, if your goalie has a .93 save percentage and you limit chances to less than 20-25 shots per game, you don't need to score more than 2 goals a game to win on most nights.

 

As for last night, they had 17 shots on net, and none of them were amazing scoring chances. Scheider stops 2 of 3 goals, and possible the 3rd. Medicore goal tending would have gotten us the win, Al Montoya woulda gotten us a win.

 

Not so much that winning 2 goals-for games isn't possible...but no matter how good your goalie is, asking them to hold the opposition to 1 goal or less on a lot of nights is really tough. 

 

If the Devils could go, say, 4-3-3 for every 10 games that they score 2 goals (point% of 55), that would be pretty outstanding, and you'd need 93%-type goaltending to get there.  That's probably the absolute best of what you can expect, as far as squeezing points out of 2-GF games goes. 


Edited by Colorado Rockies 1976, 03 December 2013 - 04:38 PM.

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Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.
Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime?
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It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

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#184 PWW

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Posted 03 December 2013 - 04:44 PM

Who is left to be given a shot? Both of those guys started in the AHL for a reason. If everyone ever gets healthy again, they'll go back to the AHL.

 

Whitney, Boucher, Sislo, hell even Matteau are all guys I'd call up and give a shot over Sestito/Janssen. With those guys, you know what you're getting, and it's not much. Why not take a chance on an unknown commodity because at worst they'll probably give you AT LEAST what you're getting from those guys, as well as the "fresh legs" that DeBo seems to want so much. It'd be nice to give a 4th line a chance to gel and work together on a regular basis and who knows, they could be the next CBGB given the chance. But when one guy is playing 5 minutes and the 3rd is always someone different, it's hard to expect anything out of your 4th. They literally could not be any more useless at this point.


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#185 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 03 December 2013 - 05:00 PM

Not suggesting that having Janssen and Sestito in the lineup is ever ideal (and like DD56 said, they're up because other guys are hurt), but just looking at the Albany roster for the top point guys and saying "Give those guys a shot, just because" doesn't really work either.  Whitney is almost 26 and hasn't sniffed the NHL for a reason, and he's not being asked to fill 4th line duty in Albany.  Boucher isn't going to be a 4th-liner either, so asking him to come up and try to be one isn't really fair, and he needs to develop.  Ditto Matteau. 

 

Janssen and Sestito are what they are...guys who you try to get by with for a while when too many guys get hurt, and aren't going to get much ice time.  They're not going to give those minutes to Boucher-types, who really need to be in the AHL, getting the minutes and experience in the kinds of situations they're going to be in when they get to the NHL.


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THE NHL MUST LOVE THE DEVILS - from who else? A RANGER fan!
[Mark Messier]: A big, bald attention whore with a stupid Easter Island-lookin face. - from who else? DaneykoIsGod!

Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.
Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime?
- Most priceless quote ever posted on a message board.

Martin Brodeur: THE MOST ALL-TIME WINS!, 12 straight seasons of 30+ wins, 3 Stanley Cups, 4 Vezina Trophies, and zero respect from too many so-called Devils "fans" who are either too young or too bandwagon to remember the much darker days of Sean Burke, Craig Billington, Bob Sauve, Alain Chevrier, and the talented but overwhelmed Chico Resch, among many others.

It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

#30 FOREVER!

20 out of 1,946 njdevs.com members agree: CR1976 is the Most Knowledgable Poster of 2008! Victory is mine...oh yes, victory is mine!

#186 PWW

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Posted 03 December 2013 - 05:15 PM

Not suggesting that having Janssen and Sestito in the lineup is ever ideal (and like DD56 said, they're up because other guys are hurt), but just looking at the Albany roster for the top point guys and saying "Give those guys a shot, just because" doesn't really work either.  Whitney is almost 26 and hasn't sniffed the NHL for a reason, and he's not being asked to fill 4th line duty in Albany.  Boucher isn't going to be a 4th-liner either, so asking him to come up and try to be one isn't really fair, and he needs to develop.  Ditto Matteau. 

 

Janssen and Sestito are what they are...guys who you try to get by with for a while when too many guys get hurt, and aren't going to get much ice time.  They're not going to give those minutes to Boucher-types, who really need to be in the AHL, getting the minutes and experience in the kinds of situations they're going to be in when they get to the NHL.

 

I get that, but at the same time, the other day we were trotting out a 4th of JJ-Teds-Ryder. I don't see why we couldn't do some line shifting and get a guy like Whitney a shot or a Matteau or Boucher on the 3rd line and just roll all 4 lines even. When the team can't score it's gotta be worth more of a shot than just rolling out the same deadwood every game and hoping something different happens. A guy could surprise and earn himself a regular role. It worked for Gionta, for better or worse, and he's been a regular ever since. If the experiment fails and you lose, oh well, you were losing anyway with the guys you had in before. At least exercise your options. I don't see how that could be a bad thing and it'll give you an idea if the guys you have are worth anything or if they're useless or still need time to develop. Honestly, I just want them to do SOMETHING, anything to prove that they're not ok with being mediocre, because when they do the same things with no change it gets really frustrating to watch (see Moose last season).


Edited by PWW, 03 December 2013 - 05:28 PM.

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#187 Have Another Donut

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Posted 03 December 2013 - 05:33 PM

Why not dress 7 D and have one or two rotate on the 4th line.  Harrold has done it before and Zids thinks he's a forward anyway.

 

They are both skilled hockey players unlike Janssen.  I'll be even Gelinas and Green are also capable. Harrold is the obvious choice-he can skate, make

 

aand receive a pass and shoot- 4 things Janssen can't do


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#188 Devil Dan 56

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Posted 03 December 2013 - 06:00 PM

Whitney, Boucher, Sislo, hell even Matteau are all guys I'd call up and give a shot over Sestito/Janssen. With those guys, you know what you're getting, and it's not much. Why not take a chance on an unknown commodity because at worst they'll probably give you AT LEAST what you're getting from those guys, as well as the "fresh legs" that DeBo seems to want so much. It'd be nice to give a 4th line a chance to gel and work together on a regular basis and who knows, they could be the next CBGB given the chance. But when one guy is playing 5 minutes and the 3rd is always someone different, it's hard to expect anything out of your 4th. They literally could not be any more useless at this point.

 

You said the people who deserve it weren't being given a chance because Deboer won't allow it. I don't know how much control the coach has over who Lou calls up for an injury. Deboer doesn't seem to have much to do with personnel decisions. His injury comments are even more vague than Lou's are, and that's most likely because Lou handles all of the behind the scenes personnel decisions.

 

I think Lou is very big on the idea of a TEAM (as Manta says) and the 'whole being greater than the sum of the parts' type of stuff. Lou has said "you need your best players to be your best players", and I think the idea right now is to try to get this group to start playing to their potential, or at least closer to it. There have been flashes here and there, but the consistency is still evading them. Zajac is coming around. Maybe last night's goal helps Ryder. Brunner needs to produce, Josefson needs to get some points, etc.

 

Now, if this thing with Henrique is serious, we may see Whitney or even Sislo, but I think they are content to let Matteau and Boucher play the year in the AHL and round their games out. Unless there's an emergency.


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#189 Triumph

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Posted 03 December 2013 - 07:19 PM

If scoreline guys get hurt, the Devils won't have the luxury of keeping Boucher in the minors.  He's playing too well for him to stay down there while guys like Tedenby would get scoreline ice here.


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#190 devlman

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Posted 03 December 2013 - 08:42 PM

I find the people saying "2 goals in the "new nhl" doesn't cut it" to be way off the mark. The top goalies in this league are posting save percentages of like .930+, we are a team that limits chances to around 20 per game. We are not built to score right now, our talent is in net and on defense, if we had quality goal tending last night, and not an aging broduer, we win that game. I don't care what the rest of the nhl does, if your goalie has a .93 save percentage and you limit chances to less than 20-25 shots per game, you don't need to score more than 2 goals a game to win on most nights.

As for last night, they had 17 shots on net, and none of them were amazing scoring chances. Scheider stops 2 of 3 goals, and possible the 3rd. Medicore goal tending would have gotten us the win, Al Montoya woulda gotten us a win.


Thankfully Schneider is getting the next start and it looks like he'll be the main guy from this point on.
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#191 lazer

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Posted 03 December 2013 - 10:28 PM

one of cam's goal was shot through his shirt off of larsson.

 

come on Defense does the scoring

 

we need more garbage men not ice princesses 


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#192 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 07:11 AM

I get that, but at the same time, the other day we were trotting out a 4th of JJ-Teds-Ryder. I don't see why we couldn't do some line shifting and get a guy like Whitney a shot or a Matteau or Boucher on the 3rd line and just roll all 4 lines even. When the team can't score it's gotta be worth more of a shot than just rolling out the same deadwood every game and hoping something different happens. A guy could surprise and earn himself a regular role. It worked for Gionta, for better or worse, and he's been a regular ever since. If the experiment fails and you lose, oh well, you were losing anyway with the guys you had in before. At least exercise your options. I don't see how that could be a bad thing and it'll give you an idea if the guys you have are worth anything or if they're useless or still need time to develop. Honestly, I just want them to do SOMETHING, anything to prove that they're not ok with being mediocre, because when they do the same things with no change it gets really frustrating to watch (see Moose last season).

 

I think they're still hoping that the many players who haven't been putting pucks in the net (but who have track records that suggest that they can) will start to soon.  We know who the culprits are.  Though Ryder and Brunner often get lumped together, at least Ryder has shown in the past he can score.  Brunner is showing why he needed a tryout to get a contract...he's scored 6 goals (with 12 assists) in his last 50 NHL games.  I understand why Lou took a gamble, but it looks like it's one that's not going to work out (and even worse, Brunner has already blamed the way he's being used, which is laughable considering he did very little in his last 25 games with Detroit).  If it doesn't get any better soon, it wouldn't surprise me if Boucher got a shot, especially if Henrique is going to be out for a while...like Tri said, those are available minutes that are least conducive to Boucher's skillset. 


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THE NHL MUST LOVE THE DEVILS - from who else? A RANGER fan!
[Mark Messier]: A big, bald attention whore with a stupid Easter Island-lookin face. - from who else? DaneykoIsGod!

Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.
Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime?
- Most priceless quote ever posted on a message board.

Martin Brodeur: THE MOST ALL-TIME WINS!, 12 straight seasons of 30+ wins, 3 Stanley Cups, 4 Vezina Trophies, and zero respect from too many so-called Devils "fans" who are either too young or too bandwagon to remember the much darker days of Sean Burke, Craig Billington, Bob Sauve, Alain Chevrier, and the talented but overwhelmed Chico Resch, among many others.

It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

#30 FOREVER!

20 out of 1,946 njdevs.com members agree: CR1976 is the Most Knowledgable Poster of 2008! Victory is mine...oh yes, victory is mine!

#193 dmann422

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 09:16 AM

one of cam's goal was shot through his shirt off of larsson.

come on Defense does the scoring

we need more garbage men not ice princesses

you are absolutely right. We don't need more brunners and Ryders right now. We need more berniers and clowes (healthy ones of course).

We need guys who crash the net and are strong along the boards, this team needs to score more ugly goals to win.
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#194 DJ Eco

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 09:49 AM

Yikes, you know attendance is terrible when you can get $9.99 tickets on StubHub for a game against the Habs... My girlfriend can only make the 3rd period so she was trying to sell, but at a margin like that, with tix in our section going for $10, not even worth it.


Edited by DJ Eco, 04 December 2013 - 09:50 AM.

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