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#21 Daniel

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 02:39 PM

I know you tend to look at these things from a very forensic POV, re:  Brodeur, but you have to stop making it sound like Brodeur has been consistently below average for the entire balance of the past three seasons.  What he's been is inconsistent, with the lows being painful-to-watch bad.  He was fine over the second half of 2010-11, and I've repeatedly pointed out the 50-game-or-so stretch of .920 save% play he provided all the way through the end of the 2012 playoffs.  He wasn't very good for much of last year's shortened season, and the backup was actually worse, and Brodeur also missed time to injury to boot.  This season has been a microcosm of the last three (inconsistency), and I definitely don't expect his play to get much better than what we've seen, which means the #1 job will be Schneider's to lose soon enough, IF he can stay healthy and IF he can put together a nice stretch that forces DeBoer's hand.  But it has NOT been three years of constant suckage.

 

When you say the Devils have dealt with it about as badly as you can manage, what should they have done differently?   

 

I basically agree with this.  Two years ago, the team tallied 102 points and made it to the SCF.  That doesn't happen if your goaltending is a black hole.  2010-11 was an anomoly that didn't have much to do with the goaltending, or at least it was a lot more than that.  You could basically say the same thing about last year.  During that time, and right now, Marty's contract hasn't been an albatross.

 

And if you want to read the tea leaves, and other speculation/rumors that have been thrown around, Lou has been trying for the past couple of years to find Marty's replacement, if you want to believe that he was inquiring into Schneider years ago and that he kept the 29th pick with the hope of getting Vasilevsky or Subban. 

 

If you don't take the save percentage to cap hit ratio uber alles, Lou has actually handled the goal tending situation pretty masterfully.  A much worse GM, would have thrown a ton of money at a guy like Bryzgolov when you had adequate, but perhaps overpriced goaltending.  Lou bided his time, more or less up point when the team couldn't win, and landed one of the best goalies in the league.  I don't know what else you could hope for.


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#22 Triumph

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 02:43 PM

I know you tend to look at these things from a very forensic POV, re:  Brodeur, but you have to stop making it sound like Brodeur has been consistently below average for the entire balance of the past three seasons.  What he's been is inconsistent, with the lows being painful-to-watch bad.  He was fine over the second half of 2010-11, and I've repeatedly pointed out the 50-game-or-so stretch of .920 save% play he provided all the way through the end of the 2012 playoffs.  He wasn't very good for much of last year's shortened season, and the backup was actually worse, and Brodeur also missed time to injury to boot.  This season has been a microcosm of the last three (inconsistency), and I definitely don't expect his play to get much better than what we've seen, which means the #1 job will be Schneider's to lose soon enough, IF he can stay healthy and IF he can put together a nice stretch that forces DeBoer's hand.  But it has NOT been three years of constant suckage.

 

When you say the Devils have dealt with it about as badly as you can manage, what should they have done differently?   

 

They decided to backup a 38 year old goalie with one of the worst backups in the league who was also the same age.  Then they decided to repeat that when it was successful, beyond anyone's expectation.  They even decided to repeat it again.  They provided themselves with a safety net full of holes for a safety net full of holes.  

 

Goaltending is streaky.  Yes, Brodeur recovered in 2011, and he did the same thing in 2012.  You need a legitimate backup plan.  They finally got one this year, and they're still giving Brodeur too many starts.


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#23 Daniel

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 02:47 PM

They decided to backup a 38 year old goalie with one of the worst backups in the league who was also the same age.  Then they decided to repeat that when it was successful, beyond anyone's expectation.  They even decided to repeat it again.  They provided themselves with a safety net full of holes for a safety net full of holes.  

 

Goaltending is streaky.  Yes, Brodeur recovered in 2011, and he did the same thing in 2012.  You need a legitimate backup plan.  They finally got one this year, and they're still giving Brodeur too many starts.

 

So what you're saying is that it has more or less worked out despite the warts (and even you have admitted that Brodeur has played above expectations this year, or at least for a stretch).    That's better than virtually any GM could do, when dealt with the same cards.


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#24 Triumph

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 02:49 PM

I basically agree with this.  Two years ago, the team tallied 102 points and made it to the SCF.  That doesn't happen if your goaltending is a black hole.

 

Sure it does.  The Red Wings won a Stanley Cup with Chris Osgood in 2008.  Any goalie can get hot.

 

 

 

2010-11 was an anomoly that didn't have much to do with the goaltending, or at least it was a lot more than that.  You could basically say the same thing about last year.  During that time, and right now, Marty's contract hasn't been an albatross.

 

It has been an albatross insofar as the Devils have seen themselves unwilling to get anyone who could even think of challenging Brodeur's starting.  It definitely did not help the Devils last year - sure the team couldn't score, but the goalies could not stop anything.  They played Johan Hedberg for 10 straight games with a save percentage well under 90%.

 

 

 

 

And if you want to read the tea leaves, and other speculation/rumors that have been thrown around, Lou has been trying for the past couple of years to find Marty's replacement, if you want to believe that he was inquiring into Schneider years ago and that he kept the 29th pick with the hope of getting Vasilevsky or Subban.

 

I agree.  But he didn't come up with one.  Not even a flyer on a guy who's been real good in the AHL or overseas.  They signed a guy out of college.  That's about it.  And drafting either Vasilevski or Subban wouldn't've helped at all with this season or probably next season.

 

If you don't take the save percentage to cap hit ratio uber alles, Lou has actually handled the goal tending situation pretty masterfully.  A much worse GM, would have thrown a ton of money at a guy like Bryzgolov when you had adequate, but perhaps overpriced goaltending.  Lou bided his time, more or less up point when the team couldn't win, and landed one of the best goalies in the league.  I don't know what else you could hope for.

 

You could hope for the team to not go with horrendous goaltending for 3 years.  The Devils are extremely lucky to have come out of those 3 seasons with what they did, given the goaltending.


Edited by Triumph, 04 December 2013 - 02:51 PM.

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#25 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 03:01 PM

They decided to backup a 38 year old goalie with one of the worst backups in the league who was also the same age.  Then they decided to repeat that when it was successful, beyond anyone's expectation.  They even decided to repeat it again.  They provided themselves with a safety net full of holes for a safety net full of holes.  

 

Goaltending is streaky.  Yes, Brodeur recovered in 2011, and he did the same thing in 2012.  You need a legitimate backup plan.  They finally got one this year, and they're still giving Brodeur too many starts.

 

Having two guys in their late 30s as your goaltending tandem isn't ideal, no, but I'm guessing Lou was hoping Frazee would be able to be a 15-25 start backup at some point.  Didn't happen, unfortunately. 

 

In fairness, the tandem did work out fairly well those first two seasons...maybe on paper, it shouldn't have, but it did, and you can't take that away from the Devils.  Yeah, it imploded in a big way last season, and we all had a hunch that it might, and you can get on Lou for going to that well one too many times.   

 

Brodeur getting hot this season definitely made things more complicated, no doubt, but Schneider is just too good for Brodeur to keep getting playing time at his expense, especially if he's not stopping pucks.  It's one thing when Marty's around .917 in save% and in the midst of a hot streak, but quite another when he's at .906 and falling, and Schneider's at .927 and can be expected to stay around there.  The too many Brodeur starts issue won't last much longer.   

 

Re:  the "horrendous goaltending for 3 years" comment from above, again, not really accurate, there were long stretches of good goaltending in the first two years.  It was not a bottomless hole of suck, and you're making it sound like it was. 


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#26 DJ Eco

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 03:02 PM

I don't think they could've possibly let him go. That's a lot of money but in this case, Sather had no choice.


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#27 Daniel

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 03:02 PM

Sure it does.  The Red Wings won a Stanley Cup with Chris Osgood in 2008.  Any goalie can get hot.

 

 

 

 

It has been an albatross insofar as the Devils have seen themselves unwilling to get anyone who could even think of challenging Brodeur's starting.  It definitely did not help the Devils last year - sure the team couldn't score, but the goalies could not stop anything.  They played Johan Hedberg for 10 straight games with a save percentage well under 90%.

 

 

 

 

 

I agree.  But he didn't come up with one.  Not even a flyer on a guy who's been real good in the AHL or overseas.  They signed a guy out of college.  That's about it.  And drafting either Vasilevski or Subban wouldn't've helped at all with this season or probably next season.

 

 

You could hope for the team to not go with horrendous goaltending for 3 years.  The Devils are extremely lucky to have come out of those 3 seasons with what they did, given the goaltending.

 

Now you're starting to sound like SD with the speculation/other teams hit the jackpot, so why couldn't we.  Maybe they could have found some goalie, that maybe could have been better.  Or better yet, just go find a diamond in the rough in the seventh round of the draft like Lunqvist.  Or even better, Lou should have just traded Parise for Schneider three years ago since Parise was going to leave anyway.    Until you suggest a specific alternative that was reasonably plausible, this just sounds like another gratuitous let's sh!t on Marty opportunity.

 

Otherwise, the implication is that good goaltending is overrated, since any goalie can get lucky.  Hey, the Wings won the Cup with a bad goalie, and the Devils had a great year with someone who was evidently the worst goalies in the league. 

 

The bottom line, the goaltending over the past three years has not been a calamity, and now, it could very well once again be a strong point.  It's very hard to complain about that.


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#28 Devil Dan 56

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 03:16 PM

I know kicking Marty is a fun past time here but in reality, if the Devils can lock up Schneider for a 7 or 8 year extension (and he continues to play at the level he has so far in his career) we would have seen nearly 30 straight years of solid, consistent goaltending. I don't think there's a team outside of the 1950-1980 Canadiens who can say that.


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#29 DJ Eco

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 03:21 PM

I know kicking Marty is a fun past time here but in reality, if the Devils can lock up Schneider for a 7 or 8 year extension (and he continues to play at the level he has so far in his career) we would have seen nearly 30 straight years of solid, consistent goaltending. I don't think there's a team outside of the 1950-1980 Canadiens who can say that.

 

Let's not get ahead of ourselves here. What happened to the Islanders and DiPietro can happen to ANY team that signs their goalies to such long-term deals. I'm just going season by season and what I do agree with you on is that we need to re-sign Schneider.


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#30 Revan

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 03:34 PM

Lundqvist is 31 - he'll be 38 when this deal expires. Which means there's a good chance this is the last contract he ever signs. Makes me feel old all of a sudden, lol. Feels like it was yesterday when he was playing his first year with the Rangers. Might be because his Stanley Cup victories total is exactly the same it was on the day of his debut.


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#31 Devil Dan 56

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 03:35 PM

Let's not get ahead of ourselves here. What happened to the Islanders and DiPietro can happen to ANY team that signs their goalies to such long-term deals. I'm just going season by season and what I do agree with you on is that we need to re-sign Schneider.

 

I know, that's why I included the "continue his level of play" part. He's had some injuries in the past, so he's not indestructible. The point was more that I don't think people realize how we fortunate we could be if this works out.


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#32 sundstrom

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 03:48 PM


 

Brodeur getting hot this season definitely made things more complicated, no doubt, but Schneider is just too good for Brodeur to keep getting playing time at his expense, especially if he's not stopping pucks.  It's one thing when Marty's around .917 in save% and in the midst of a hot streak, but quite another when he's at .906 and falling, and Schneider's at .927 and can be expected to stay around there.  The too many Brodeur starts issue won't last much longer.   

 

 

this really hits the nail on the head - they gave the job to schneider. even marty gave it to him. and schneider had two not so great games and marty got hot. now we're back to where we were when they tried to give schneider the net the first time (sub-par to bad marty for 4 games, excellent cory for 3 games). assuming cory plays well, he'll get 3 of the next 4 and then we'll go from there.

 

as for lundqvist's deal affecting schneider, i don't think it's THAT big an influence. Schneider has not played more than 33 games in a season. you don't hear people talking about james reimer or jonathan bernier getting huge contracts. the fact is, lou is almost certainly going to be giving out a contract based on expectations rather than experience. there's 54 games left in the season. schneider has played 12. i think the best we can hope for, barring marty injury is a 34-20 split for schneider for the remaining games. that gives schneider 48 games started this year. hank has averaged 68GP since he started 9 years ago.

 

as has been stated, rask is the comperable. he got 8/56. its too early to tell, but unless there's a long playoff run that schneider backstops, i don't think lou gives that to him this offseason. i think lou would give him 7/45 this summer looking to get a bit below market.


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#33 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 03:53 PM

I know, that's why I included the "continue his level of play" part. He's had some injuries in the past, so he's not indestructible. The point was more that I don't think people realize how we fortunate we could be if this works out.

 

True, the only year of really dreadful goaltending from beginning-to-end since '93-'94 was last season.  There was a few seasons where Marty was propped up, and the last few have been inconsistent, but overall we have gotten damned fine goaltending (the guy who provided most of it is going to the Hall of Fame on his first ballot, and has set a lot of records), and there's a good chance the damned fine goaltending could continue (of course, assuming Schneider re-signs and stays healthy). 


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[Mark Messier]: A big, bald attention whore with a stupid Easter Island-lookin face. - from who else? DaneykoIsGod!

Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.
Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime?
- Most priceless quote ever posted on a message board.

Martin Brodeur: THE MOST ALL-TIME WINS!, 12 straight seasons of 30+ wins, 3 Stanley Cups, 4 Vezina Trophies, and zero respect from too many so-called Devils "fans" who are either too young or too bandwagon to remember the much darker days of Sean Burke, Craig Billington, Bob Sauve, Alain Chevrier, and the talented but overwhelmed Chico Resch, among many others.

It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

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#34 roomtemp

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 03:55 PM

And here's to 7 years of disaster for the Rags


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#35 MadDog2020

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 04:15 PM

He needs them and they need him. At least he's not going to Pittsburgh now.

Or Philly. They would've offered him a piece of the team probably.


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#36 Triumph

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 04:38 PM

Having two guys in their late 30s as your goaltending tandem isn't ideal, no, but I'm guessing Lou was hoping Frazee would be able to be a 15-25 start backup at some point.  Didn't happen, unfortunately. 

 

In fairness, the tandem did work out fairly well those first two seasons...maybe on paper, it shouldn't have, but it did, and you can't take that away from the Devils.  Yeah, it imploded in a big way last season, and we all had a hunch that it might, and you can get on Lou for going to that well one too many times.   

 

Brodeur getting hot this season definitely made things more complicated, no doubt, but Schneider is just too good for Brodeur to keep getting playing time at his expense, especially if he's not stopping pucks.  It's one thing when Marty's around .917 in save% and in the midst of a hot streak, but quite another when he's at .906 and falling, and Schneider's at .927 and can be expected to stay around there.  The too many Brodeur starts issue won't last much longer.   

 

Re:  the "horrendous goaltending for 3 years" comment from above, again, not really accurate, there were long stretches of good goaltending in the first two years.  It was not a bottomless hole of suck, and you're making it sound like it was. 

 

Fair, but the periods of suck made it virtually impossible to win games.  The only thing holding the 2011-12 Devils together was the shootout (where the goalies were very good).  

 

Re:  Frazee - also a fair point, he had a .916 or so SV% through his first 2 years in the minors.  Had he maintained that or gotten a little better I think he would've had a shot to backup Brodeur in 2011-12.  Still, he faltered.

 

Now you're starting to sound like SD with the speculation/other teams hit the jackpot, so why couldn't we.  Maybe they could have found some goalie, that maybe could have been better.  Or better yet, just go find a diamond in the rough in the seventh round of the draft like Lunqvist.  Or even better, Lou should have just traded Parise for Schneider three years ago since Parise was going to leave anyway.    Until you suggest a specific alternative that was reasonably plausible, this just sounds like another gratuitous let's sh!t on Marty opportunity.

 

Otherwise, the implication is that good goaltending is overrated, since any goalie can get lucky.  Hey, the Wings won the Cup with a bad goalie, and the Devils had a great year with someone who was evidently the worst goalies in the league. 

 

The bottom line, the goaltending over the past three years has not been a calamity, and now, it could very well once again be a strong point.  It's very hard to complain about that.

 

The goaltending has been at the very least not good overall, despite periods of being very good, and at times downright miserable.

 

There are goalies available from Europe.  Viktor Fasth was one guy.  Anton Khudobin was acquired by the Bruins for not much.  Anders Lindback was pricey and Ben Bishop pricier, so I can see why they didn't go there.  Bobrovsky.  There weren't many UFA backup types available - I forget the years where Biron, Giguere, etc. were available.  Vokoun signed with Pittsburgh as a backup.  And so on - I get the sense that the Devils didn't want any challenges to Brodeur's crease, and that was a mistake.


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#37 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 05:05 PM

Fair, but the periods of suck made it virtually impossible to win games.  The only thing holding the 2011-12 Devils together was the shootout (where the goalies were very good).  

 

Re:  Frazee - also a fair point, he had a .916 or so SV% through his first 2 years in the minors.  Had he maintained that or gotten a little better I think he would've had a shot to backup Brodeur in 2011-12.  Still, he faltered.

 

It's kind of become a footnote, but Frazee not being able to contribute to the Devils (I'll defer to the Lou and the braintrust and assume they didn't think he could pan out in the NHL) is a pretty significant disappointment.  I think Lou probably saw him as a Dunham-type (Brodeur admitted in his book that the only time he ever felt pushed in his career was when Dunham was his backup), a guy who may not be good enough to take Brodeur's job outright, but a guy who could be a competent young NHL goalie, and who might even show enough as a backup that some other team might be interested in taking a shot with him as their starter...at the very least, they were hoping for a young, in-house option with some possible upside (the upside being able to possibly push Marty).  The fact that Lou continued to go back to an aging Hedberg (who to his credit was at least pretty good in his first two years) pretty much says what he thought of Frazee.  Hedberg's play in his first two Devil seasons really helped cover up for Frazee basically being a bust.  


Edited by Colorado Rockies 1976, 04 December 2013 - 05:07 PM.

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THE NHL MUST LOVE THE DEVILS - from who else? A RANGER fan!
[Mark Messier]: A big, bald attention whore with a stupid Easter Island-lookin face. - from who else? DaneykoIsGod!

Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.
Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime?
- Most priceless quote ever posted on a message board.

Martin Brodeur: THE MOST ALL-TIME WINS!, 12 straight seasons of 30+ wins, 3 Stanley Cups, 4 Vezina Trophies, and zero respect from too many so-called Devils "fans" who are either too young or too bandwagon to remember the much darker days of Sean Burke, Craig Billington, Bob Sauve, Alain Chevrier, and the talented but overwhelmed Chico Resch, among many others.

It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

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#38 Daniel

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 05:13 PM

Fair, but the periods of suck made it virtually impossible to win games.  The only thing holding the 2011-12 Devils together was the shootout (where the goalies were very good).  

 

Re:  Frazee - also a fair point, he had a .916 or so SV% through his first 2 years in the minors.  Had he maintained that or gotten a little better I think he would've had a shot to backup Brodeur in 2011-12.  Still, he faltered.

 

 

The goaltending has been at the very least not good overall, despite periods of being very good, and at times downright miserable.

 

There are goalies available from Europe.  Viktor Fasth was one guy.  Anton Khudobin was acquired by the Bruins for not much.  Anders Lindback was pricey and Ben Bishop pricier, so I can see why they didn't go there.  Bobrovsky.  There weren't many UFA backup types available - I forget the years where Biron, Giguere, etc. were available.  Vokoun signed with Pittsburgh as a backup.  And so on - I get the sense that the Devils didn't want any challenges to Brodeur's crease, and that was a mistake.

 

None of those goalies would make the Devils significantly better, or gotten the Devils any further than they did in the past three years.  At best, and even this is a huge stretch, one of those goalies might have gotten the Devils into the playoffs last year.  So one bad year where lots of things went wrong, but that you can attribute in part to goaltending, when the available alternatives most likely wouldn't have gotten you into the playoffs, is not a disaster.

 

And it's quite ironic that you mention Bobrovsky, since his save percentage and other measurables were abysmal his second year in Philly, and they are not very good this year.  He was just "lucky" last season, and in the end, it didn't do much for Columbus's fortunes. 

 

EDIT:  I'll also add that it wasn't like the Columbus got Bobrovsky off the scrap heap.  They gave up a second and fourth.  Right now, it looks like we're doing much better with Schneider and Severson, then Bobrovsky and whoever you assume the Devils would have taken with the ninth pick last year.


Edited by Daniel, 04 December 2013 - 05:21 PM.

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#39 dmann422

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 05:50 PM

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#40 Triumph

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 05:54 PM

None of those goalies would make the Devils significantly better, or gotten the Devils any further than they did in the past three years.  At best, and even this is a huge stretch, one of those goalies might have gotten the Devils into the playoffs last year.  So one bad year where lots of things went wrong, but that you can attribute in part to goaltending, when the available alternatives most likely wouldn't have gotten you into the playoffs, is not a disaster.

 

And it's quite ironic that you mention Bobrovsky, since his save percentage and other measurables were abysmal his second year in Philly, and they are not very good this year.  He was just "lucky" last season, and in the end, it didn't do much for Columbus's fortunes. 

 

EDIT:  I'll also add that it wasn't like the Columbus got Bobrovsky off the scrap heap.  They gave up a second and fourth.  Right now, it looks like we're doing much better with Schneider and Severson, then Bobrovsky and whoever you assume the Devils would have taken with the ninth pick last year.

 

Haha, you can't play this card.  I gave you ranges of things I thought might happen and you come back 'none of them would've made the Devils significantly better'.  Do you understand that the Devils had some of the worst goaltending in the league last year?  Literally anything would've been better.  And before I get told 'no one could've saw that coming' - their goalies were 40 and each had had sustained stretches of poor play.  Severson isn't a certainty even in your hypothetical - he's a 2nd round pick, the best you can do is typically something like Severson, the worst, well I can go down the list of Devils' 2nd round picks who haven't panned out.

 

Bobrovsky's numbers are skewed some by small samples and how much he played at 3 on 5 in 2011-12.  I don't think he's elite, but I don't think he's bad either.


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