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#21 thecoffeecake

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 05:43 PM

Why? The reason a good chunk of Newark is a craphole because of the people who live there. Hell, almost every plighted area in the US is plighted because of the people who live there.

Here again is the reverse fear of gentrification because it somehow destroys the "charm" of these areas. Give me a friggin break. DUMBO was a sh!thole before the hipsters moved in and if you want to romaticize an area that was full of gangs, drugs and violence then go right ahead. I like walking through that area without having to worry about my safety.

This was pretty overtly racist. I'm not big on PC, but I'm actually offended by this post. These urban issues are a product of their society. What, you think inherently bad people happen to all concentrate in certain urban neighborhoods, or doyou just think every black and hispanic person possesses the traits necessary to organize gangs and commit violent crimes? Gentrifying areas does nothing to fix the problems of the complete absence of middle class jobs or of institutional racism. These people will still be poor, will still have no opportunities, and problems like gangs, drugs, and violence will still exist, just somewhere else. I can't educate you on the histories of urban social problems, deindustrialization, suburbanization, white flight, basic community planning and urban form in a single post, so do yourself a favor and open a book.
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#22 Daniel

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 06:00 PM

The area around the arena is fine, and more so when there's an event. Although, I used to work in Gateway Plaza and Penn Station is a spooky place after around 11:00 when there isn't anything going on at the Rock. Still, Newark just isn't going to be much of a destination for much else, and I wouldn't worry about gentrification if you're bothered about that sort of thing. The cities that have seen it, like Hoboken, West New York and Jersey City have done so because of proximity to NYC. Newark is not going to have an influx of yuppies that work in New York. And the ones that work in Jersey would rather live in a place like Montclair or Morristown. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Edited by Daniel, 17 December 2013 - 06:02 PM.

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#23 DevsMan84

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 06:18 PM

This was pretty overtly racist. I'm not big on PC, but I'm actually offended by this post. These urban issues are a product of their society. What, you think inherently bad people happen to all concentrate in certain urban neighborhoods, or doyou just think every black and hispanic person possesses the traits necessary to organize gangs and commit violent crimes? Gentrifying areas does nothing to fix the problems of the complete absence of middle class jobs or of institutional racism. These people will still be poor, will still have no opportunities, and problems like gangs, drugs, and violence will still exist, just somewhere else. I can't educate you on the histories of urban social problems, deindustrialization, suburbanization, white flight, basic community planning and urban form in a single post, so do yourself a favor and open a book.


This is the typical far left excuse for why poverty exist. They are always the victim of something whether it be corporations, society or the "white man." There is now an entire culture of victimization where the only way they see an escape is through someone else instead of pulling themselves out of it.

Want more proof of how you help feed into that culture if victim hood? I never once mentioned race in my post but that's the conclusion you immediately jumped to and accused me of being a racist.

Do yourself a favor and read something written by someone other than far left philosophers and theorists.
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#24 Mike Brown

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 06:30 PM

This is the typical far left excuse for why poverty exist. They are always the victim of something whether it be corporations, society or the "white man." There is now an entire culture of victimization where the only way they see an escape is through someone else instead of pulling themselves out of it.

Want more proof of how you help feed into that culture if victim hood? I never once mentioned race in my post but that's the conclusion you immediately jumped to and accused me of being a racist.

Do yourself a favor and read something written by someone other than far left philosophers and theorists.

 

OK, this post offends me with your generalization of liberals.


Edited by Mike Brown, 17 December 2013 - 06:30 PM.

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#25 dmann422

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 07:35 PM

Lol I just knew this thread would devolve somehow.

As has been said many times, the area right around the rock is fine, especially before and after games when there are plenty of people around.

Off topic, "Cleaning up" Newark won't help solve the problem of the poverty cycle. Like it or not our society is set up so that these people don't have many opportunities to succeed or advance their lot, and cleaning up Newark will most likely just result in people ignoring the problem more.

And to make generalizations such as "the only way they see a way out is through other people" is laughably ridiculous and frankly obtuse. Plenty of people are struggling just to get by on their own, and most if not all individual successes involve people getting help along the way.
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#26 aylbert

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 06:15 AM

This was pretty overtly racist. I'm not big on PC, but I'm actually offended by this post.


It wasn't racist at all, it was prejudiced against a socioeconomic class and its pretty hard to say he's wrong. It is what it is. You also can't improve an area by lifting its people... It doesnt happen.

You bring opportunities, it creates demand to be there. I don't see that in Newark just yet. I see businesses catering to the crowds, but the area seems dead to me outside of those times.

When businesses move in with good jobs, people move in to be closer. The area improves because you changed the population. Cashiers and laborers don't become finance, legal, marketing, research people just because a new company opens their doors. And if you're hoping for the rebirth of the middle class with factory jobs... That isn't going to happen.

I like the Rock in Newark because it's 1) not CAA and 2) easilly accessible . I wasn't scared of the location, I just didn't think it would happen like NewarkDevil used to talk about long before it came to be.
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#27 Dead

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 08:40 AM

Newark (and well every city) is affected directly by the people that live there. To say otherwise would ignore the citizens of whatever city, and their effect on their city. Lets face it Newark is not a very "good" city in general but the vast majority of people that live in Newark are good people. As with all areas a small percentage of the population is what is considered "bad", and well those give any city the rep it has (as far a negative).


I have seen enough of newark and goings on to know that it is generally not safe (day or night), for the most part regardless of the area you are in.
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#28 Colin226

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 09:39 AM

Newark (and well every city) is affected directly by the people that live there. To say otherwise would ignore the citizens of whatever city, and their effect on their city. Lets face it Newark is not a very "good" city in general but the vast majority of people that live in Newark are good people. As with all areas a small percentage of the population is what is considered "bad", and well those give any city the rep it has (as far a negative).


I have seen enough of newark and goings on to know that it is generally not safe (day or night), for the most part regardless of the area you are in.

 

The downtown is pretty safe during the day.. The worst you get are robberies (mainly people stealing iPhones), but that's not uncommon in any city really including NYC.. It's partially why Apple beefed up the features around locking phones when they've been stolen.. At night you get the occasional shooting but really most of the bad stuff we hear about in Newark is a mile or more from the arena (mainly west and southwest, but also some northwest).. My parents see all the cases that come through from these crimes so they've shared this info with me

 

But as you say, it's unfortunate that the very small minority ruin for the rest of the folks in Newark just trying to get on with their lives.. The problem the city has is that it's easy to get to downtown and it's also a big shopping area for locals, so how do you keep the crime out? Tough task


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#29 Chuck the Duck

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 10:35 AM

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#30 NewarkDevil5

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 11:20 AM

I like the Rock in Newark because it's 1) not CAA and 2) easilly accessible . I wasn't scared of the location, I just didn't think it would happen like NewarkDevil used to talk about long before it came to be.

 

Well I had only been advocating it since about 1998 so I was a relative latecomer at about 10 years before opening day lol. I think in a lot of ways it wound up happening exactly in the context that I thought it would, which is to say as a means to save the existence of the Devils as a New Jersey team as well as revitalizing the downtown core, which it has done amazing things towards both.

 

As far as the west and south side neighborhoods, those kinds of neighborhoods exist in all major cities. The difference is that in NJ our home rule mentality has carved up our cities to the point where we've used municipal boundaries to segregate. In any other state, Newark's municipal borders would encompass the majority if not all of Essex County and those neighborhood's crime statistics would be akin to those of Bedford-Stuyvesant or Watts, but they would be listed within the greater Newark statistics so the city wouldn't look as bad.


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#31 ATLL765

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 11:41 AM

Why?  The reason a good chunk of Newark is a craphole because of the people who live there.  Hell, almost every plighted area in the US is plighted because of the people who live there.

 

Here again is the reverse fear of gentrification because it somehow destroys the "charm" of these areas.  Give me a friggin break.  DUMBO was a sh!thole before the hipsters moved in and if you want to romaticize an area that was full of gangs, drugs and violence then go right ahead.  I like walking through that area without having to worry about my safety.

This is without a doubt, a giant over simplification of the issue.

In no way can you blame the particular people there for the entire problem, because if you take otherwise very similar people and put them in a nice area, they all of a sudden don't get arrested a lot and have a chance at college. What is different about these people? Usually just where they live, possibly how much money they make.

While it's true whenever you get a large concentration of poor people in one area, crime is a problem, but that isn't the people, it's the situation. Are people to blame for some of it, obviously yes, but to say they are the cause of their own plight is not only ignorant, but makes you sound like a straight up a$$hole who doesn't give two sh!ts about the poor because you only have to see them when you fear for your safety....

I usually 100% disagree with coffee cake and think his posts don't make sense, but he hit the nail on the head here about people's feelings on urban areas. You guys are giant pussies if you're afraid of walking through any area. I'm 5'5" and like 105lbs and I couldn't give two sh!ts about being anywhere in Newark that's remotely close to anyplace any of us would go. Do I want to be in an open area drug market at 2 am? Probably not, but it's not like you're gonna accidentally wander into one walking to your car from the Prudential Center.

Same goes for taking the current residents into account going forward. It does not matter how many sh!t holes you gentrify the sh!t out of. Poor people don't just disappear when that happens, they find the next sh!thole. And then when it turns out that sh!thole is your town. It's whoa is me, all this crime, there's scary men on the basketball court in the park, blah, blah, blah.


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#32 TheRedStorm

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 12:17 PM

In no way can you blame the particular people there for the entire problem, because if you take otherwise very similar people and put them in a nice area, they all of a sudden don't get arrested a lot and have a chance at college. What is different about these people? Usually just where they live, possibly how much money they make.

While it's true whenever you get a large concentration of poor people in one area, crime is a problem, but that isn't the people, it's the situation. Are people to blame for some of it, obviously yes, but to say they are the cause of their own plight is not only ignorant, but makes you sound like a straight up a$$hole who doesn't give two sh!ts about the poor because you only have to see them when you fear for your safety....

 

 

Jesus H, what a total and absolute load of liberal garbage pulled right from the handbook. Nothing more needs to be said.

 

Actually, it does, for effect. The human pieces of sh!t who carjacked and killed a man in front of his wife for his Range Rover a few miles from my home wouldn't have done that if you gave them say, a year ago, a middle class home, a few dollars and the thought that they'll now enroll in a local college?

 

Get the hell out of here.


Edited by TheRedStorm, 18 December 2013 - 12:21 PM.

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#33 ATLL765

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 12:29 PM

Jesus H, what a total and absolute load of liberal garbage pulled right from the handbook. Nothing more needs to be said.

 

Actually, it does, for effect. The human pieces of sh!t who carjacked and killed a man in front of his wife for his Range Rover a few miles from my home wouldn't have done that if you gave them say, a year ago, a middle class home, a few dollars and the thought that they'll now enroll in a local college?

 

Get the hell out of here.

No, I'm saying it's far less likely that any particular person would commit a crime like that having grown up in a wealthier area. This is fact.


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#34 TheRedStorm

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 12:39 PM

No, I'm saying it's far less likely that any particular person would commit a crime like that having grown up in a wealthier area. This is fact.

 

It's also fact that violent crime knows no territorial boundaries or class system and that violent crime isn't just caused by poverty.

 

A person is responsible for their own life's choices, rich or poor. Free will. Want to carjack someone? That's a choice. Want to murder someone over sneakers? That's a choice. Want to run a ponzi scheme like Bernie? That's a choice.

 

There are also born animals in society who no amount of education and money can help and the lifestyle they live is glorified. The problem is statistically these people are all in inner cities or impoverished areas.


Edited by TheRedStorm, 18 December 2013 - 01:03 PM.

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#35 NewarkDevil5

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 01:01 PM

It's also fact that violent crime knows no territorial boundaries or class system and that violent crime isn't just caused by poverty. I'm not a believer in "you're a product of your own enviroment". People are responsible for their own life's choices. Free will. There are also animals in society who no amount of education and money can help and the lifestyle they live is glorified. I'd be willing to bet there are people who will never leave an inner city for any reason.

 

Violent crime may not be caused strictly by poverty, but it is absolutely exacerbated by a nothing to lose mentality. Poor people have less to lose than rich people, that is a fact.

 

You can talk about free will all you want, but the invisible hand of the market governs the market regardless of your freewill to choose the higher priced equivalent item. In much the same way, the forces of economics and incentives govern what people are more or less likely to do with regards to crime. If you have more incentive to take what someone else has at gunpoint than you do to work for it, you're more likely to do so.

 

If the home-life and schooling you were given allows you little opportunity to do anything legitimate outside of a minimum wage entry level job with no growth potential, then you might start looking at illegitimate options like drug dealing and theft. Are there going to be examples of people who rise above? Absolutely and they are fully accounted for by the odds.

 

There are absolutely people who never leave an inner city. There are also people who never leave their small rural town of 500. What that has to do with anything I'm not entirely sure.

 

As far as glorifying their lifestyle, it is something that has been going on for a long time. Before you had black gangs you had Italian mafiosos, before them you had Irish gangs and so on. Every group has gone through this and their exploits have been both glorified and vilified in each group's histories in similar ways.


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#36 DevsMan84

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 01:02 PM

This is without a doubt, a giant over simplification of the issue.

In no way can you blame the particular people there for the entire problem, because if you take otherwise very similar people and put them in a nice area, they all of a sudden don't get arrested a lot and have a chance at college. What is different about these people? Usually just where they live, possibly how much money they make.

While it's true whenever you get a large concentration of poor people in one area, crime is a problem, but that isn't the people, it's the situation. Are people to blame for some of it, obviously yes, but to say they are the cause of their own plight is not only ignorant, but makes you sound like a straight up a$$hole who doesn't give two sh!ts about the poor because you only have to see them when you fear for your safety....

I usually 100% disagree with coffee cake and think his posts don't make sense, but he hit the nail on the head here about people's feelings on urban areas. You guys are giant pussies if you're afraid of walking through any area. I'm 5'5" and like 105lbs and I couldn't give two sh!ts about being anywhere in Newark that's remotely close to anyplace any of us would go. Do I want to be in an open area drug market at 2 am? Probably not, but it's not like you're gonna accidentally wander into one walking to your car from the Prudential Center.

Same goes for taking the current residents into account going forward. It does not matter how many sh!t holes you gentrify the sh!t out of. Poor people don't just disappear when that happens, they find the next sh!thole. And then when it turns out that sh!thole is your town. It's whoa is me, all this crime, there's scary men on the basketball court in the park, blah, blah, blah.


You are also totally ignoring the culture of victimization that is occurring in these plighted areas where their struggles are never the fault of their own but instead always the fault of society or some outside influence. This is where you get that line if thinking of where if you throw money at the problem then it goes away. We all know that line of thinking is seriously flawed. Want proof? Well how has the abbot school system been working out for NJ? Schools that were failing are now spending the most per pupil on education with the same or nearly the same results before the abbot system started.

Bill Cosby for years have been giving speeches to inner city children to accept responsibility for their lives and to not fall into the victimization trap. The response from the left and inner city "advocates" have been nothing but negative with words like "traitor" being some of the kinder words he has been called.
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#37 DevsMan84

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 01:07 PM

Violent crime may not be caused strictly by poverty, but it is absolutely exacerbated by a nothing to lose mentality. Poor people have less to lose than rich people, that is a fact.

You can talk about free will all you want, but the invisible hand of the market governs the market regardless of your freewill to choose the higher priced equivalent item. In much the same way, the forces of economics and incentives govern what people are more or less likely to do with regards to crime. If you have more incentive to take what someone else has at gunpoint than you do to work for it, you're more likely to do so.

If the home-life and schooling you were given allows you little opportunity to do anything legitimate outside of a minimum wage entry level job with no growth potential, then you might start looking at illegitimate options like drug dealing and theft. Are there going to be examples of people who rise above? Absolutely and they are fully accounted for by the odds.

There are absolutely people who never leave an inner city. There are also people who never leave their small rural town of 500. What that has to do with anything I'm not entirely sure.

As far as glorifying their lifestyle, it is something that has been going on for a long time. Before you had black gangs you had Italian mafiosos, before them you had Irish gangs and so on. Every group has gone through this and their exploits have been both glorified and vilified in each group's histories in similar ways.


So you are saying Newark, who not only receive more funding per pupil than most districts due to it being an abbot district, does not give children an opportunity at education? Please. It's the children who have grown up watching their parents receiving handouts because they chose to play the victim card who chose not to take advantage of the school system and the parents not giving a damn.

You can't improve an area when a large chunk of that population can't improve themselves with all the assistance in the world. Therefore like my original argument a page ago you cannot gentrify a neighborhood with the existing pre-gentrified population still there.
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#38 DJ Eco

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 01:23 PM

This is the typical far left excuse for why poverty exist. They are always the victim of something whether it be corporations, society or the "white man." There is now an entire culture of victimization where the only way they see an escape is through someone else instead of pulling themselves out of it.

Want more proof of how you help feed into that culture if victim hood? I never once mentioned race in my post but that's the conclusion you immediately jumped to and accused me of being a racist.

Do yourself a favor and read something written by someone other than far left philosophers and theorists.

 

I'm super far-left liberal and generally agree with your point.

 

You shouldn't generalize people or their beliefs.


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#39 TheRedStorm

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 01:49 PM

Violent crime may not be caused strictly by poverty, but it is absolutely exacerbated by a nothing to lose mentality. Poor people have less to lose than rich people, that is a fact.

 

You can talk about free will all you want, but the invisible hand of the market governs the market regardless of your freewill to choose the higher priced equivalent item. In much the same way, the forces of economics and incentives govern what people are more or less likely to do with regards to crime. If you have more incentive to take what someone else has at gunpoint than you do to work for it, you're more likely to do so.

 

If the home-life and schooling you were given allows you little opportunity to do anything legitimate outside of a minimum wage entry level job with no growth potential, then you might start looking at illegitimate options like drug dealing and theft. Are there going to be examples of people who rise above? Absolutely and they are fully accounted for by the odds.

 

There are absolutely people who never leave an inner city. There are also people who never leave their small rural town of 500. What that has to do with anything I'm not entirely sure.

 

As far as glorifying their lifestyle, it is something that has been going on for a long time. Before you had black gangs you had Italian mafiosos, before them you had Irish gangs and so on. Every group has gone through this and their exploits have been both glorified and vilified in each group's histories in similar ways.

 

DM84 above beat me to the main response, but those people in that rural area of 500 aren't adding to the national/state crime statistic and aren't a part of their own problem eating themselves from within, save for the epidemic of cow tipping.

 

,


Edited by TheRedStorm, 18 December 2013 - 01:59 PM.

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#40 DJ Eco

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 01:53 PM

Even if Newark was close to as dangerous as the media exaggerates, what made anyone think waking a handful of blocks from your car to the stadium and back with throngs of people would present any serious threat? Fear of urban areas really just stems from ignorance and misperceptions. And they need to be careful balancing revitalization, and make sure gentrification is held somewhat in check. We don't want to see the local population displaced.

 

 

I disagree with you in some cases and agree with you in many cases, especially my own case.

 

My own area is a good example of this. I live in Hudson County, town of North Bergen/West New York. It's a mostly middle or lower-middle Hispanic population (which makes up half of my background as well) and is undergoing a very steady stream of gentrification.

 

There've been at least 4 playgrounds and basketball/mini-soccer courts get torn down in the past 2 years, and replaced with dog-runs. Not that the original residents don't walk their dogs, but their kids always made full use of the playgrounds, they were always packed. Now, you only see upper-middle class white professionals in their 20s and 30s hanging out with their dogs at the dog-run.

 

It sounds small, but it always starts small. I love my neighborhood because food and groceries are cheap and pretty much everything is cheap and within walking distance. Not to mention, the cuisine is incredible: tons of amazing Colombian and Hispanic cuisine. The next step is once the bodegas and dive bars start getting bought out and replaced with yoga studios and vegan minimarkets and some interpretive arts space opened by some art kid on his rich family's dime. These are all red flags that lead to new businesses and amenities on a neighborhood-scale which attracts a certain kind of people, like termites. And they'll suck all the roots out of the neighborhood and turn it into what their version of the neighborhood "should be".

 

An area like mine doesn't want gentrification. The crime's pretty low, and most people here like it the way it is.

 

An area like Newark though, I don't think you can really argue against a little cleaning up. There's really nothing much else you can do to help many of the people there. Ironbound's tight-knit enough to not really give in to a massive gentrification but I can't say the same for much of the rest of the city.


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