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Fire DeBoer Thread


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#41 DJ Eco

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 05:53 PM

I agree.   We haven't drafted an impact forward since Zach.   There is not alot of talent upfront to choose from.   I love Boucher, but he is still not ready yet.   Would love to see Matteau in the next year or so.

 

I see Matteau as a future Zubrus (which would be a good thing). A big serviceable body upfront, nothing too flashy. But yeah, outside of Boucher (who isn't ready yet), we don't have any Parises coming up anytime soon, while most of the teams around us do, and HAVE made the right draft selections all these years.


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#42 cgb6397

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 06:06 PM

PDB has two huge faults. His mismanagement of young players, especially the D-Men, and his love for Gionta. Other than that, I like what he's done as a coach. Nobody was crying about PDB when we HAD the trio of players that we lost over the last two years. It's no secret, our personnel has gotten worse since 2012, no reason to fire DeBoer. He does all he can as a coach, he puts the team in a position to win every night, but he can't shoot the puck for them


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"You know my boss, (Lou Lamoriello), we don't throw parades for second place"
-Pete Deboer on the Devils 5th Stanley Cup Final appearence

#43 CarpathianForest

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 06:10 PM

PDB is a good coach, but this team is lacking in discipline. We had teams in the recent past with similar talent. but they had strong discipline. They didn't constantly blow assignments.


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#44 PWW

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 06:53 PM

The thing I really wonder with this team is where the real problem lies. Yes, they're not that good, but they're better than this. Is Lou forcing Pete's hand in who he plays and when? Is Pete just really someone who plays favorites and stifles young talent? Is Stevens an awful defensive coach who has ruined what was essentially the same defense we had during the Cup run? Is it some combo of all of the above? We'll never know, but there's a problem somewhere in there that needs to be figured out because between the defensive breakdowns, line-up/coaching decisions, and overall inconsistency in handling the roster I just have to wonder what is actually going on behind the scenes.


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#45 EdgeControl

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 06:54 PM

A coach is supposed to teach and instruct. Alarming is how now multiple players have indicated there is no communication or instruction coming from this coaching staff. Deboer was criticized for this in Florida and even back in juniors. He's never gonna change .

Good coaches find a way.

I've fired many a worker in my day, and "well, I wasnt trained" is the number one excuse they claim for their poor performance. and thats EXACTLY what it is, AN EXCUSE. the devils run one of the tightest, disciplined systems in all of hockey, hell, all of sports, your telling me pete's not communicating with them???


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#46 cgb6397

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 06:55 PM

The thing I really wonder with this team is where the real problem lies. Yes, they're not that good, but they're better than this. Is Lou forcing Pete's hand in who he plays and when? Is Pete just really someone who plays favorites and stifles young talent? Is Stevens an awful defensive coach who has ruined what was essentially the same defense we had during the Cup run? Is it some combo of all of the above? We'll never know, but there's a problem somewhere in there that needs to be figured out because between the defensive breakdowns, line-up/coaching decisions, and overall inconsistency in handling the roster I just have to wonder what is actually going on behind the scenes.

Dude, it's so much simpler. We lost Kovalchuk, Parise, and Clarkson, all 30 goal scorers. If you watch the games, we're the same team as we were in 2012, just minus the goals.


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"You know my boss, (Lou Lamoriello), we don't throw parades for second place"
-Pete Deboer on the Devils 5th Stanley Cup Final appearence

#47 PWW

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 07:00 PM

Dude, it's so much simpler. We lost Kovalchuk, Parise, and Clarkson, all 30 goal scorers. If you watch the games, we're the same team as we were in 2012, just minus the goals.

 

It doesn't explain the defensive breakdowns, unless we're just gonna say Bryce and Volch fell off a fvcking cliff, which hey, is possible. It also doesn't explain the decisions. I'm talking about this year's team in a bubble. fvck those guys. They're not even worth talking about because they don't effect the handling of this year's roster (and I still prefer Clowe to Clarkson anyway but that's neither here nor there). They don't explain Harrold over Fayne. They don't explain Larsson in the minors. It doesn't explain why some guys could literally put the puck in our own net and not suffer consequences while others are punished for looking the wrong way. Plus, I still say Robinson and Oates were bigger losses to this team and its future than Parise and Clarkson. I'm not gonna mention Kovy because there was no way to handle that this offseason based on the timing. I'll judge that based on what Lou does THIS offseason.


Edited by PWW, 01 February 2014 - 07:47 PM.

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#48 cgb6397

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 07:29 PM

It doesn't explain the defensive breakdowns, unless we're just gonna say Bryce and Volch fell off a fvcking cliff, which hey, is possible. It also doesn't explain the decisions. I'm talking about this year's team in a bubble. fvck those guys. They're not even worth talking about because they don't effect the handling of this year's roster (and I still prefer Clowe to Clarkson anyway but that's neither here nor there). They don't explain Harrold over Fayne. They don't explain Larsson in the minors. It doesn't explain why some guys could literally put the puck in our own net and not suffer consequences while others are punished for looking the wrong way. Plus, I still say Robinson and Oates were bigger losses to this team and it's future than Parise and Clarkson. I'm not gonna mention Kovy because there was no way to handle that this offseason based on the timing. I'll judge that based on what Lou does THIS offseason.

You're right, it doesn't explain the defensive breakdowns. Volch and Sal are both two years older, and when you reach a certain age, each year matters even more. But come on, it's not like we're giving up five goals every night. This teams number one problem is that it can't score goals. If we had those three, or two, or even one scorer back we'd be in a lot better shape.

 

I do agree, the assistant coaching has gotten significantly worse, but what are you going to do, Oates and Robinson were a dream team of assistant coaches


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"You know my boss, (Lou Lamoriello), we don't throw parades for second place"
-Pete Deboer on the Devils 5th Stanley Cup Final appearence

#49 Devilsfan118

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 07:29 PM

You know what though, here's the thing (and forgive me if this has already been said, but I don't want to read the rest of this thread right now):

Pete's not paid to develop talent.  Pete's paid to win now.  I mean, you'd like to think he'd help the team get better in the future, but, for all he knows, he won't be here for it.  So why would he play young, developing players (who will bring along rookie mistakes that will cost games, there's no denying it) to make the team better two years from now when he might be gone after this season?  I get this mentality, especially with Lou's "WE NEVER REBUILD" method.

 

Now, what I don't understand is why he thinks playing Gionta in the top-6 and Salvador in key moments gives the team the best chance to win.  Gionta is a hard worker, leaves it all on the ice, yada yada.  Yeah, you need guys like him, but he's offensively...challenged.  He has no scoring ability - play him in a 4th line role like he needs to be.  Salvador..don't even get me started.  He should be getting 3rd pairing minutes at best.  His roster decisions are what drive me insane.

 

He's done a good job with this relatively bad roster - I mean, we're still in the playoff discussion in February.  That's pretty impressive, when most people had the Devils pegged for dead last.


Edited by Devilsfan118, 01 February 2014 - 07:30 PM.

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#50 coldply123

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 07:44 PM

PDB is a good coach, but this team is lacking in discipline. We had teams in the recent past with similar talent. but they had strong discipline. They didn't constantly blow assignments.

 

He's a mediocre to poor coach.  He's not even average.  He's a good manager.  That's it.  He "manages".  He doesn't coach however.  His philosophy and system are pretty straightforward and mundane.  Any coach can be given a bunch of elite forwards and excellent depth like we had in 2012 and run to the Cup (and Devils fans need to stop hiding from the fact that we were extremely luckier than usually needed to advance).

He's bad at communicating adjustments and developing young talent and if discipline is an issue, that's entirely on the coach.


Dude, it's so much simpler. We lost Kovalchuk, Parise, and Clarkson, all 30 goal scorers. If you watch the games, we're the same team as we were in 2012, just minus the goals.

 

That's such a load of nonsense you just posted and you need to learn why if you expect to ever understand anything at all about hockey from a team perspective.


No, the minor league is for teaching and instruction.   Young players need to be prepared for the speed and the grind at the major league level.   

 

NHL Head coaches are more tacticians and strategists than "teachers" at the NHL level.   Players at the NHL level need the rudiments.  

 

Well, thats a pretty stark indictment of our scouting/development, is it not?  Guess who oversees that?  Where is the accountability?


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#51 cgb6397

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 07:48 PM

He's a mediocre to poor coach.  He's not even average.  He's a good manager.  That's it.  He "manages".  He doesn't coach however.  His philosophy and system are pretty straightforward and mundane.  Any coach can be given a bunch of elite forwards and excellent depth like we had in 2012 and run to the Cup (and Devils fans need to stop hiding from the fact that we were extremely luckier than usually needed to advance).

He's bad at communicating adjustments and developing young talent and if discipline is an issue, that's entirely on the coach.


 

That's such a load of nonsense you just posted and you need to learn why if you expect to ever understand anything at all about hockey from a team perspective.

Not true. Just watch the games. We're competitive in nearly every game this year, credit that to a strong system, good bond between players, whatever, whatever, the bottom line is, our entire forward group is made up of guys that throw their body, play along the boards, create plays with their passing etc. and is severely lacking in pure scorers. Our only sniper is Ryder, and don't get me wrong, I love Ryder, but he's a B+ forward.

 

Jagr and Elias are our two best forwards, and while the fact that they're over 40 and pushing 40 respectively is a problem, their games have transformed since their earlier years, making them more passers than shooters. Combine this with the fact that most of our forwards are scoring at a pace under what we expect/ need them to (Zajac,Clowe,Henrique etc.) How can you say a lack of scoring isn't the problem?


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"You know my boss, (Lou Lamoriello), we don't throw parades for second place"
-Pete Deboer on the Devils 5th Stanley Cup Final appearence

#52 coldply123

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 07:50 PM

If this team had won 4 shootouts, absolutely no one but loons like coldply would be talking about firing DeBoer.  They might be unhappy with some of his roster choices - I certainly am - but I defy you to find a coach where the fans aren't upset.

 

Several of the shootouts we've had to go to so far this year were directly because of piss-poor coaching and horrible line management.  Try and deny that.  Just try.

 

You and I can do this back and forth all day long.  


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#53 CarpathianForest

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 07:52 PM

Several of the shootouts we've had to go to so far this year were directly because of piss-poor coaching and horrible line management.  Try and deny that.  Just try.

 

You and I can do this back and forth all day long.  

 

He's got a point.


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#54 NJDevs4978

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 08:33 PM

All I'll say is this

 

Plenty of Devils coaches have done better and still gotten canned. It is odd how Lou has stuck with Deboer when Robinson and Julien got fired for reasons most of us still don't understand.

 

He did have the Cup run...but he's also likely going to miss the playoff consecutive years

 

Bingo...then again Lou hasn't done ANYthing period lately.  Other than roster machinations to avoid doing anything.

 

It's funny how quickly everyone rushes to Pete's defense when you all wanted Julien fired by Thanksgiving.  Pete as the coach isn't the issue per se but he sure as shooting is crap when it comes to developing players or lineup choices.


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#55 NJDevs4978

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 08:37 PM

If there's an issue with development, etc - that's on Lou to an extent, and I'd even say the assistant coaches.

 

Talk about passing the buck.  I don't think Lou's telling Pete to play Gelinas three minutes in a game, play Larsson twenty-five minutes a night as a rookie then scratch him the next year, go with eleven forwards or whatever other bizarre decisions he makes.  Yes Larsson this year is on Lou to an extent for hoarding him in the minors but it's not like he was getting a fair shake with Pete for the most part the last two years anyway until Gelinas came up and Larsson started playing better with the guillotine removed.  Same with Fayne for that matter.  Funny how he played well in 2012 and the latter part of this year when he's finally assured of an everyday lineup spot but was crap when they were yo-yoing him in and out.


Edited by NJDevs4978, 01 February 2014 - 08:41 PM.

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#56 William D'Aquila

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 11:13 PM

He's a mediocre to poor coach.  He's not even average.  He's a good manager.  That's it.  He "manages".  He doesn't coach however.  His philosophy and system are pretty straightforward and mundane.  Any coach can be given a bunch of elite forwards and excellent depth like we had in 2012 and run to the Cup (and Devils fans need to stop hiding from the fact that we were extremely luckier than usually needed to advance).

He's bad at communicating adjustments and developing young talent and if discipline is an issue, that's entirely on the coach.


 

That's such a load of nonsense you just posted and you need to learn why if you expect to ever understand anything at all about hockey from a team perspective.


 

Well, thats a pretty stark indictment of our scouting/development, is it not?  Guess who oversees that?  Where is the accountability?

 

He is anything but a poor coach in fact he is probably one the better coaches in the league. He makes in game adjustments and has put a system in place that keeps us in every game. His youth development hasn't been the best, but Josefson, Tedenby, and others haven not given him a reason to stay in the line up. 

 

Development needs to occur at the minor league level first and foremost. Its quite possible that a number of our rookies were rushed. The younger players that have thrived here Henrique and Fayne were given time to develop. I think everyone from management on down has done a terrific job this year considering the cards they were dealt. No Kovy, no Parise, no Clarkson, managing the decline of the franchises greatest player, and trading for Cory during the draft. 

 

A lot of you are too young to remember the middling Devils era pre Jacques its quite possible that we may have to live through a similar period again. But I wouldn't fret with the defense we have in the pipeline coupled with a re-signed Schneider the Devils will be an upper echelon team within 2 to 3 years if not sooner.


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#57 thefiestygoat

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Posted 02 February 2014 - 12:01 AM

DeBoer's a decent coach, I like his style, I won't fault him for Lou's errors but what irks me is how vets have no accountability but young players, especially if their European, get crucified for minimal errors, or no errors at all. I'm sure he's well liked amongst vets but I would love to hear what Larsson, Josefson, and Loktionov would have to say about him in private. I get that a coach at this level isn't trying to develop players but can you honestly tell me that Larsson isn't an upgrade over half the D? That Loktionov can't bring more offense than Carter or Gionta? That Josefson isn't better than Gionta?

 

My big problem right now is that Lou seems to have gone soft and is going through the motions at his age. Devils coaches that have done more have been let go in the past. The logjam of D hasn't been cleared in well over a year. The minor league/prospect system hasn't been strong for what seems like a decade. I know it's sacrilegious to call for his head, which I'm not necessarily doing, but I don't think getting some fresh blood into the front office/scouting department is going to be the worst thing in the world. It seems like the Devils organization is treading the waters of mediocrity. The cup run really seems like it was more luck than anything now.

 

I don't expect anything out of this year's team so whatever happens, happens. I do hope that they get a new coach for next season though.


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#58 Triumph

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Posted 02 February 2014 - 12:09 AM

Several of the shootouts we've had to go to so far this year were directly because of piss-poor coaching and horrible line management.  Try and deny that.  Just try.

 

You and I can do this back and forth all day long.  

 

lol.  yeah, that's what it was.  no way that a low event team with good goaltending and bad offense should expect to go to a bunch of shootouts.


Edited by Triumph, 02 February 2014 - 12:13 AM.

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#59 Triumph

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Posted 02 February 2014 - 12:45 AM

DeBoer's a decent coach, I like his style, I won't fault him for Lou's errors but what irks me is how vets have no accountability but young players, especially if their European, get crucified for minimal errors, or no errors at all. I'm sure he's well liked amongst vets but I would love to hear what Larsson, Josefson, and Loktionov would have to say about him in private. I get that a coach at this level isn't trying to develop players but can you honestly tell me that Larsson isn't an upgrade over half the D? That Loktionov can't bring more offense than Carter or Gionta? That Josefson isn't better than Gionta?

 

My big problem right now is that Lou seems to have gone soft and is going through the motions at his age. Devils coaches that have done more have been let go in the past. The logjam of D hasn't been cleared in well over a year. The minor league/prospect system hasn't been strong for what seems like a decade. I know it's sacrilegious to call for his head, which I'm not necessarily doing, but I don't think getting some fresh blood into the front office/scouting department is going to be the worst thing in the world. It seems like the Devils organization is treading the waters of mediocrity. The cup run really seems like it was more luck than anything now.

 

I don't expect anything out of this year's team so whatever happens, happens. I do hope that they get a new coach for next season though.

 

Pete DeBoer has coached for 3 seasons.  This is the longest anyone has coached the Devils since Lemaire from 94 to 98.  Which is utterly insane for a franchise this successful - if anything Lou has been way too quick on the coaching firing trigger, mistaking PDO blips for serious downturns in play that need remedying with another coach.  Either that or he's not particularly good at picking coaches, which suggests that he should stick with one who's had some success.

 

I'm sure Loktionov, Josefson, and Larsson don't like DeBoer.  I don't really think that's germane - what's more germane is do they deserve the treatment they've gotten from the coach, and I think in every case, yes, though Josefson is probably the worst case.

 

- Larsson was not playing well at the end of 2011-12 and his benching was earned.  In 2012-13, again, didn't play particularly well, and the team had too many defensemen, so out he goes in some games.  Unfortunate consequence of having a healthy D corps.  2013-14, he was playing rotten at the beginning of the year and so he sat.  He came back and played better and was no longer being scratched.  It's not utter caprice.  DeBoer's not responsible for his having been demoted to the AHL.

 

- Josefson has played 97 games as a Devil for Pete Deboer.  He has 3 goals and 11 assists.  These are barely acceptable numbers from a 4th line center.  It is unfortunate that the pucks bounced the way they did last year and that Josefson was sent down as a result, but he was given a very large role when he came back.  I wouldn't say he struggled with it but he did not excel either.

 

- Loktionov was the team's 3rd line center at the beginning of the year.  He was given power play time when there were injuries.  It's only recently that he has been sat - unfortunately after probably his best run of games, but that run didn't result in any goals for his line.  Still, whether DeBoer changed Loktionov's responsibilities or he is not playing as well, he's not dogging the puck like he was last year.  He's been basically a break even type player when you consider ZS% - his play in the defensive zone is not good, and hasn't really improved this year.  You could see DeBoer's frustration with it in a recent game - Loktionov won't be an NHL player if he plays the D zone like he has.


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#60 ThreeCups

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Posted 02 February 2014 - 01:41 AM

If this team had won 4 shootouts, absolutely no one but loons like coldply would be talking about firing DeBoer.  They might be unhappy with some of his roster choices - I certainly am - but I defy you to find a coach where the fans aren't upset.

 

 

After losing the first...I don't know?  8 games in the shootout; scoring 1 whopping goal total....start using some random guys like a Zid or Gionta...ANYONE


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