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#241 dmann422

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 10:01 PM

I said it multiple times that Lou Lamoriello is not the Lou Lamoriello of "old".  How much of today's Lou has to do with the reality of the league he now deals in can be an all day discussion because the league has changed so much compared to 10-15-20 years ago. Today, he has to weigh making moves under the cap, teams changing the way they deal because of the cap, teams importance of trading/not trading picks, terrible contracts to take on, etc, etc. 
 
I do feel, however, that Lou has gotten away from something. Some "edge". Sometimes it looks like he's lost or an inability/ability to properly judge personnel or make decisions regarding, becoming too "soft", handing out legacy contracts....things you wouldn't picture the Lou of 1990 or 1995 or 2000 to be doing. The CS trade was a heist, but it also fell into his lap. I only wish the same thing can fall into his lap in the form of a top 6 forward.

I understand what your saying but it seems like you don't want to give credit to him for the Schneider trade... I don't think it was as simple as "falling into his lap". There were many on here who didn't like the trade at first and hey let's be honest if he doesn't re-sign here it was a bad trade, but good or bad you have to credit Lou for making it.
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#242 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 10:12 PM

I understand what your saying but it seems like you don't want to give credit to him for the Schneider trade... I don't think it was as simple as "falling into his lap". There were many on here who didn't like the trade at first and hey let's be honest if he doesn't re-sign here it was a bad trade, but good or bad you have to credit Lou for making it.

 

Absolutely.  Lou knew Hedberg couldn't come back, and that Marty was a question mark after a shaky 2013.  He didn't have anyone from within to bring up.  Lou went out and managed to get a guy who clearly has top-end talent.  Not sure why RS thinks Cory just fell into Lou's lap.  It was a pretty ballsy move to make, especially since he was basically telling the guy who's been here forever that his time was just about up.


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#243 Jmorc2003

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 10:41 PM

We have D to spare but I don't think its Sal. GMs won't bring in a guy 1/2 way through a season just for leadership. No offense, but id rather get something more impactful than what we would get for him. Lose a young d man for a top 6 explosive forward, Besides, he's my neighbor so I'd hate to see him go.
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#244 Mike Brown

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 12:03 AM

Listen, I'm not going to entertain you with yet another board arguement so you can boost your post count some more - you've done enough of that in the past few days with different people in various threads.  You're not rational - you're annoyingly and falsely optimistic.  I refuse to get into it over something as silly as this.

 

My point here, again, is that I firmly believe the Devils should not be buyers this season.  In fact, I think it'd be downright stupid to not trade several of Jagr/Zidlicky/Fayne if possible.  Call up Gelinas, Larsson, and Boucher and let them play the season out.  It'll be ugly, but at least it'll be progress.

 

And it's getting tiring seeing people reference the Devils as "just outside a spot".  We need to look at trends here..not just current standings alone.  Big picture stuff - does anyone here think the Devils will somehow magically find a way to get 65-70% of the points available from this point forward without something drastic like a coach change or huge shakeup trade (neither of which is likely coming)?

 

Everything is lined up for them to make the playoffs if they execute.  They have a weak schedule, and most of their games are at home.  I'm just stating facts here.  That's the reality of the situation.  Being pessimistic like you're being isn't being realistic.  Saying this team has no chance to overcome a 5 point deficit is not being realistic.  And despite the fact we have to jump over 3 or 4 teams, it's also not realistic to assume those teams are just gonna win much of their remaining games either.  We have no idea what those teams are gonna do.

 

Also, we would get very little for those guys you mention.  Unless you're ok with just dumping them.  Fine.  But don't expect anything much for them.  Even Jagr. Zidlicky has a NTC as well.  So why even bother trading them?

 

What's getting tiresome is people not looking at the big picture.  I agree, but in the opposite way.  16-8-1 is not setting the world on fire.  But if they do that, they'll have almost a 75% chance of getting in.  There would be nothing magical whatsoever about accomplishing that.  What if by some chance we're actually in a playoff position by March 5?  Should we still be sellers?  Also, another thing I was trying to get into people's skulls is that if the Devils make it to 93 points, it won't matter what the other teams do.  The fact we would have to jump over teams, and games in hand becomes irrelevant.

 

Now to answer your question.  Do any of us see this team going on a torrid enough of a run to make the playoffs?  Whether we do or not, it's not the point.  Nobody can predict that their team is gonna go on a long winning streak.  I mean sometimes you can sense it, but nobody can actually predict it.  The whole point of buying is to make your team better.  So looking at the team now is pointless.  Because if we make a trade for true bonafide scorer, it obviously won't be the same team.

 

When was the last time any GM decided to give up on a season when they were only 5 or so points out?  Not many GM's would.  So why should Lou be any different?


Edited by Mike Brown, 08 February 2014 - 12:05 AM.

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#245 Devil Dan 56

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 12:13 AM

Absolutely.  Lou knew Hedberg couldn't come back, and that Marty was a question mark after a shaky 2013.  He didn't have anyone from within to bring up.  Lou went out and managed to get a guy who clearly has top-end talent.  Not sure why RS thinks Cory just fell into Lou's lap.  It was a pretty ballsy move to make, especially since he was basically telling the guy who's been here forever that his time was just about up.

 

To add to this, Vancouver had been set on trading Luongo for a while. He was basically begging to be a Panther. Lou managed to convince them to give us the better long-term option, AND for less than other teams had previously offered for Cory. It was definitely more than "falling into his lap."


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#246 TheRedStorm

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 12:48 AM


 

Absolutely.  Lou knew Hedberg couldn't come back, and that Marty was a question mark after a shaky 2013.  He didn't have anyone from within to bring up.  Lou went out and managed to get a guy who clearly has top-end talent.  Not sure why RS thinks Cory just fell into Lou's lap.  It was a pretty ballsy move to make, especially since he was basically telling the guy who's been here forever that his time was just about up.

 

Name another team besides the Devils and not named the Edmonton Oilers and Philadelphia Flyers who needed a goaltender as badly. While we can assume some teams kicked the tires who didn't necessarily *need* a goalie as badly, where was he realistically going? Most around the league thought it was Luongo going bye bye, including himself. 

 

The Flyers for whatever reason didn't pull the trigger. The Canucks weren't trading CS to the Oilers. Vancouver most likely preferred CS in the East, too. So it isn't a stretch to say that CS fell into Lou's lap. Knowing this, Lou stepped up, used an asset and made the deal, but let's not make it seem like he outbid and outfoxed half the league here like the Lou of old would. 


Edited by TheRedStorm, 08 February 2014 - 12:59 AM.

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#247 TheRedStorm

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 12:53 AM

To add to this, Vancouver had been set on trading Luongo for a while. He was basically begging to be a Panther. Lou managed to convince them to give us the better long-term option, AND for less than other teams had previously offered for Cory. It was definitely more than "falling into his lap."

 

Vancouver found out they couldn't trade Luongo because of his contract and that appeasing him by trading him to the team of his choice wasn't going to happen, either. They came to the realization they were stuck with one another.

 

Lou pulled a coup in a limited market. 


Edited by TheRedStorm, 08 February 2014 - 12:55 AM.

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#248 Triumph

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 01:22 AM

Name another team besides the Devils and not named the Edmonton Oilers and Philadelphia Flyers who needed a goaltender as badly. While we can assume some teams kicked the tires who didn't necessarily *need* a goalie as badly, where was he realistically going? Most around the league thought it was Luongo going bye bye, including himself. 

 

The Flyers for whatever reason didn't pull the trigger. The Canucks weren't trading CS to the Oilers. Vancouver most likely preferred CS in the East, too. So it isn't a stretch to say that CS fell into Lou's lap. Knowing this, Lou stepped up, used an asset and made the deal, but let's not make it seem like he outbid and outfoxed half the league here like the Lou of old would. 

 

The Islanders.  The Panthers.  Toronto traded for a guy who they thought could be a starting goalie, so maybe throw them into the mix.

 

The idea that this deal 'fell into Lou's lap' is ridiculous - you know how I know it's ridiculous?  I don't remember reading ANYONE thinking this was a possibility.  It's an enormous trade - both what it suggested about Lou's faith in the team in the future (high) and what he felt about Brodeur (not high).


Edited by Triumph, 08 February 2014 - 01:23 AM.

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#249 NLinfante

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 01:34 AM


 

What's getting tiresome is people not looking at the big picture.  I agree, but in the opposite way.  16-8-1 is not setting the world on fire.  But if they do that, they'll have almost a 75% chance of getting in.  There would be nothing magical whatsoever about accomplishing that.  What if by some chance we're actually in a playoff position by March 5?  Should we still be sellers?  Also, another thing I was trying to get into people's skulls is that if the Devils make it to 93 points, it won't matter what the other teams do.  The fact we would have to jump over teams, and games in hand becomes irrelevant.

 

 

I actually agree that 16-8-1 is not setting the world on fire, and it would give the team a great chance of making the playoffs. But my questions remains the same. What makes you believe this is possible? If it's pure fandom that more power to you. Feel free to check my posts, I'm not a devils doubter, and I want the team to find as much success as possible - I'll cheer them on until the last day. I just want to make sure that we all realize what a monumential effort it will take from the current squad to win 2 of 3 (or better) for the rest of the year. As I mentioned before in this thread, I hope they prove me wrong. But I'm not totally convinved that people on this board truly understand what playing nearly .700 hockey is.


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#250 TheRedStorm

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 01:50 AM

The Islanders.  The Panthers.  Toronto traded for a guy who they thought could be a starting goalie, so maybe throw them into the mix.

 

The idea that this deal 'fell into Lou's lap' is ridiculous - you know how I know it's ridiculous?  I don't remember reading ANYONE thinking this was a possibility.  It's an enormous trade - both what it suggested about Lou's faith in the team in the future (high) and what he felt about Brodeur (not high).

 

 

He wasn't going to the Oilers under any circumstances. Not to the Islanders. Same with the Panthers. If those teams seriously wanted CS they had more assets in which to deal from. Florida had the 2nd overall draft pick. Toronto traded for Bernier when Luongo was the frontrunner to be traded, albeit a week or so before CS was the one shipped out. Who knows? Maybe Toronto preferred Bernier over CS? Why didn't the Flyers deal for him while we're at it? 

 

Because you don't read about it on the internet before it happens, it's ridiculous? You don't remember reading about it for two very possible reasons. 1) Luongo was the one clearly on the move by June and the focus was on him. 2) You know Lamoriello. We all do. None of Lou's business ever reaches the media. But, besides all that, if Luongo had one foot already out the door, why would CS be mentioned at all going anywhere by anyone who knows anything, let alone to the Devils? 

 

Look, no one is saying this trade wasn't a coup, wasn't enormous and wasn't a steal. This trade was like Christmas morning. Lou isn't the only GM, HOF or not, that has a player fall into his lap for any number of reasons. 


Edited by TheRedStorm, 08 February 2014 - 02:48 AM.

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#251 Mike Brown

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 03:21 AM

I actually agree that 16-8-1 is not setting the world on fire, and it would give the team a great chance of making the playoffs. But my questions remains the same. What makes you believe this is possible? If it's pure fandom that more power to you. Feel free to check my posts, I'm not a devils doubter, and I want the team to find as much success as possible - I'll cheer them on until the last day. I just want to make sure that we all realize what a monumential effort it will take from the current squad to win 2 of 3 (or better) for the rest of the year. As I mentioned before in this thread, I hope they prove me wrong. But I'm not totally convinved that people on this board truly understand what playing nearly .700 hockey is.

 

Well we've been running on a .568 points percentage (58 points in 51 games) clip since the 0-4-3 start.  We're 24-17-10 since then.  I don't think it's all that unreasonable to say that if they acquire just one proven scorer like Cammalleri, that we would have a better chance to run at the .650 clip needed in order to make the playoffs.  We would need about 32 points in the remaining 24 games.

 

If we make a significant trade, what the team did prior to the trade shouldn't matter anymore as a trade would mean we improved the team (assuming the trade doesn't backfire on us).

 

For example, the Kings in 2012 prior to acquiring Jeff Carter couldn't score at all.  Once they got Jeff Carter, everything they did prior to getting him became moot.


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#252 NLinfante

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 06:56 AM

If they can acquire some scoring help, maybe you're right. It's not like we haven't seen Devils teams of the past rip off nice win streaks. I fully believe Cory will give them the goaltending they need but they're gonna have to score at some point. Not easy to play .650 hockey for this team, but doable. To play .650 hockey when every game is a 1-goal game? Borderline impossible.


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#253 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 07:10 AM

Well we've been running on a .568 points percentage (58 points in 51 games) clip since the 0-4-3 start.  We're 24-17-10 since then.  I don't think it's all that unreasonable to say that if they acquire just one proven scorer like Cammalleri, that we would have a better chance to run at the .650 clip needed in order to make the playoffs.  We would need about 32 points in the remaining 24 games.

 

If we make a significant trade, what the team did prior to the trade shouldn't matter anymore as a trade would mean we improved the team (assuming the trade doesn't backfire on us).

 

For example, the Kings in 2012 prior to acquiring Jeff Carter couldn't score at all.  Once they got Jeff Carter, everything they did prior to getting him became moot.

 

You're picking 93 points, I've been saying 92.  We're about on the same page there.

 

There's ways to make the Devils' record look good and bad, depending on where one chooses to cherry-pick.  Devils are 12-6-7 in their last 25.  That's a .620 point%.  If you want to start with from where Schneider really and finally became the Devils #1 man in the net, they're 7-3-4 (.643).  But they're only 4-3-3 in their last 10. 

 

There's signs that point to the Devils being able to pull this off (favorable schedule, Schneider's play) but to get to .660 over an extended period, they have to keep the games where they blow potential points to a minimum.  They can't have a slump.  They also have to hope Schneider can somehow keep holding teams to less than two regulation goals per start, and that Marty can do enough to win half of his remaining starts. 

 

Funny thing is, if the Devils can just pull off over their remaining 24 games what they've done in their previous 25 (say 12-6-6), that will give them 91 points.  When you look at it from this standpoint, it doesn't seem so outlandish.  We'll find out if they're capable of it soon enough.

 

Cammalleri seems like a guy who's going to come in here and promptly not score.  He's also coming off a concussion.  I don't think he'll help much.


Edited by Colorado Rockies 1976, 08 February 2014 - 07:19 AM.

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Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.
Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime?
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Martin Brodeur: THE MOST ALL-TIME WINS!, 12 straight seasons of 30+ wins, 3 Stanley Cups, 4 Vezina Trophies, and zero respect from too many so-called Devils "fans" who are either too young or too bandwagon to remember the much darker days of Sean Burke, Craig Billington, Bob Sauve, Alain Chevrier, and the talented but overwhelmed Chico Resch, among many others.

It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

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#254 SterioDesign

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 09:01 AM

Few years ago we traded for one of the top scorer in the league and put him on a top of an better team than we have now already... Yet we lost in first round. Adding another guy doesnt necessarely make our team better.

We have so many inconsistant guys that extra scoring would simply score the goal our guys "should" have scored really.

Well we've been running on a .568 points percentage (58 points in 51 games) clip since the 0-4-3 start.  We're 24-17-10 since then.  I don't think it's all that unreasonable to say that if they acquire just one proven scorer like Cammalleri, that we would have a better chance to run at the .650 clip needed in order to make the playoffs.  We would need about 32 points in the remaining 24 games.
 
If we make a significant trade, what the team did prior to the trade shouldn't matter anymore as a trade would mean we improved the team (assuming the trade doesn't backfire on us).
 
For example, the Kings in 2012 prior to acquiring Jeff Carter couldn't score at all.  Once they got Jeff Carter, everything they did prior to getting him became moot.


The kings were also a team that people were looking at saying... What the hell is going on this team should be scoring a lot more... And you cant ignore that the coaching change made the differnce for them, not carter.

Were not a team that people are wondering why were not doing better, were getting what we should be getting out of a mediocre roster.
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#255 coldply123

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 09:02 AM

Devils are winning the Cup this year folks. I have seen the light and my faith has been restored.

I actually expect Lou to make a move or two after the break. Just a gut feeling.
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#256 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 09:37 AM

Devils are winning the Cup this year folks. I have seen the light and my faith has been restored.

I actually expect Lou to make a move or two after the break. Just a gut feeling.

 

I don't think anyone really thinks they're winning the Cup, but they do have a shot at the playoffs if they can maintain what they've been doing for a while now, and if they get in, they might win a round or two if Cory plays at the top of his game. 

 

We'll know soon enough how much confidence Lou has in this group.  If he stands pat, probably not that much.


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THE NHL MUST LOVE THE DEVILS - from who else? A RANGER fan!
[Mark Messier]: A big, bald attention whore with a stupid Easter Island-lookin face. - from who else? DaneykoIsGod!

Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.
Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime?
- Most priceless quote ever posted on a message board.

Martin Brodeur: THE MOST ALL-TIME WINS!, 12 straight seasons of 30+ wins, 3 Stanley Cups, 4 Vezina Trophies, and zero respect from too many so-called Devils "fans" who are either too young or too bandwagon to remember the much darker days of Sean Burke, Craig Billington, Bob Sauve, Alain Chevrier, and the talented but overwhelmed Chico Resch, among many others.

It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

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#257 Triumph

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 09:53 AM

He wasn't going to the Oilers under any circumstances. Not to the Islanders. Same with the Panthers. If those teams seriously wanted CS they had more assets in which to deal from. Florida had the 2nd overall draft pick. Toronto traded for Bernier when Luongo was the frontrunner to be traded, albeit a week or so before CS was the one shipped out. Who knows? Maybe Toronto preferred Bernier over CS? Why didn't the Flyers deal for him while we're at it? 

 

Because you don't read about it on the internet before it happens, it's ridiculous? You don't remember reading about it for two very possible reasons. 1) Luongo was the one clearly on the move by June and the focus was on him. 2) You know Lamoriello. We all do. None of Lou's business ever reaches the media. But, besides all that, if Luongo had one foot already out the door, why would CS be mentioned at all going anywhere by anyone who knows anything, let alone to the Devils? 

 

Look, no one is saying this trade wasn't a coup, wasn't enormous and wasn't a steal. This trade was like Christmas morning. Lou isn't the only GM, HOF or not, that has a player fall into his lap for any number of reasons. 

 

I don't remember reading anyone speculating about it.  I know that Lou keeps things close to the vest and that his trades don't get out.  My point is that no one outside Lou's circle saw this coming.

 

I understand that if those teams wanted Schneider they probably could've gotten him, but the idea that he 'wasn't going to the Oilers' is ridiculous.  The Devils had to offer up a 9th overall pick to get him.  What if they were unwilling to do that?  You are living in a world where the Schneider trade definitely happens the way it happened and explaining how it happened through hindsight.


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#258 Devils Pride 26

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 10:00 AM

The Devils have enormous games coming out of the break with teams that are ahead of them. If they want any shot at the postseason, they have to win the majority of them, and hopefully in regulation. 

 

Cory is giving them a chance every game, if they score just two damn goals a night they are guaranteeing at least a point with how Schneider is playing.


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#259 dmann422

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 10:24 AM

I don't remember reading anyone speculating about it. I know that Lou keeps things close to the vest and that his trades don't get out. My point is that no one outside Lou's circle saw this coming.

I understand that if those teams wanted Schneider they probably could've gotten him, but the idea that he 'wasn't going to the Oilers' is ridiculous. The Devils had to offer up a 9th overall pick to get him. What if they were unwilling to do that? You are living in a world where the Schneider trade definitely happens the way it happened and explaining how it happened through hindsight.

nobody speculated about the trade at all, I don't know where RS is getting that from. There were hundred page long threads where people kept speculating if nichuskin would fall to us, but not one mention of Schneider. Like i said earlier there were many who were stunned on here that we didn't draft a forward prospect.

But overall my problem with not giving Lou credit for the trade is you know if Schneider doesn't re-sign, people are going to absolutely crucify Lou for giving up the pick for 2 years of Schneider. You can't be willing to blame Lou if the trade goes bad but not give him credit if it works out.

Edited by dmann422, 08 February 2014 - 10:25 AM.

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#260 Mike Brown

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 11:31 AM

nobody speculated about the trade at all, I don't know where RS is getting that from. There were hundred page long threads where people kept speculating if nichuskin would fall to us, but not one mention of Schneider. Like i said earlier there were many who were stunned on here that we didn't draft a forward prospect.

But overall my problem with not giving Lou credit for the trade is you know if Schneider doesn't re-sign, people are going to absolutely crucify Lou for giving up the pick for 2 years of Schneider. You can't be willing to blame Lou if the trade goes bad but not give him credit if it works out.

 

People only realize when you fvck up your job rather than when you're doing your job.  Schneider is actually another reason why we shouldn't go in rebuild mode.  Why would a GM trade a high draft pick for a player who's going to be a UFA just after 2 seasons with the team if he was trying to rebuild?  Granted Lou could always trade Schneider if he wanted to.  But if Vancouver could only muster one first round pick for guy with 2 years left on his contract, how much can we expect Lou to get for him with one year left on his contract?


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