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#121 Z-Man

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 03:51 PM

The term "re-build" isn't as tough as it seems with this team, given young depth in goal and defense.

 

G:  Schneider is 27, and hopefully will sign a long-term extension once he enters his final contract year in the offseason.  Throw in 24 year-old Kinkaid as an alternate plan. 

 

D:  If and when you clear out the veterans/dead-weight...Larsson, Gelinas, Merrill, Urbom, Severson, even if 26 year-old Fayne comes back...that's a young defense, most of whom already have NHL experience.  Greene will still only be 33 when his deal is up, which would definitely not rule him out for an extension.

 

F:  Obviously the hardest part of the "re-build."  Zajac, Clowe and Henrique are long-term.  Elias and Zubrus still have two years after this, Ryder and Brunner one year.  Unless you can get some young forward talent through trades/drafts, it doesn't seem like there's much on the horizon with the exception of Boucher and maybe Matteau.


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#122 Devil Dan 56

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 03:58 PM

There's really no quick fix trade for this situation. The goaltending is fine with a simple capable back up added in July. The defense is solid with young guys playing their way in over the next few seasons. Some offense needs to be added so we can score more than 1 or 2 a game. This is something that can be addressed in free agency as well.

 

The idea of blowing this team up and rebuilding is ridiculous. It took Chicago nearly 15 years to build into a contender. It took over a decade for Pittsburgh, and they had 2 of the best scorers of the 90's on their team for some of those years, and they lucked into 2 of the best of the 2000's. It's a crap shoot to hope for that. As a few have said before, look at the Islanders, Edmonton, Florida, Phoenix, Toronto, etc, always rebuilding and never getting passed the first round if they even do make the playoffs. This team has some pieces, and they just need to continue building on them. They are not far off from where they should be in the standings. Players like Parise and Kovalchuk don't just get replaced. It took us being lucky that one fell too far in the draft, and Lou fleecing Atlanta in the a trade to get the other one.


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#123 SterioDesign

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 04:20 PM

lol you act as if rebuilding is a sure thing while going for it now while we're a ~45% to make the playoffs is a big gamble.

 

because in a business you always try to capitalize on your best opportunities and try to limit your loss. Thats a smart business model.  

 

On one hand you have winning the cup... which is HIGHLY unlikely. What if we do win the cup? Well great we have another cup of course its awesome but again, nothing would have changed and we'd have a worst team next season. Mayyybe have more interest from a few UFAs maybe? But if we don't win, we'd have a lesser "stock" team next season and 

 

On the other hand, NOT trading away young players, prospects or picks and trying to get a few. That's giving you options and more chances of getting players that could help. In this options at least the repercussions could help through the years. 

 

Always better in this situation to gamble and play safe on stuff you can control (getting picks or prospects to try to fill future holes eventhough its nothing sure is still a step in the right direction) rather than gambling giving some away hoping you can make it through 4 rounds of playoffs.

 

and by the way i never said we should tank and blow up the team. All im saying is that i dont want to give up ANY picks or prospects for a playoffs run this year.


Edited by SterioDesign, 04 February 2014 - 04:21 PM.

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#124 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 04:21 PM

The term "re-build" isn't as tough as it seems with this team, given young depth in goal and defense.

 

G:  Schneider is 27, and hopefully will sign a long-term extension once he enters his final contract year in the offseason.  Throw in 24 year-old Kinkaid as an alternate plan. 

 

D:  If and when you clear out the veterans/dead-weight...Larsson, Gelinas, Merrill, Urbom, Severson, even if 26 year-old Fayne comes back...that's a young defense, most of whom already have NHL experience.  Greene will still only be 33 when his deal is up, which would definitely not rule him out for an extension.

 

F:  Obviously the hardest part of the "re-build."  Zajac, Clowe and Henrique are long-term.  Elias and Zubrus still have two years after this, Ryder and Brunner one year.  Unless you can get some young forward talent through trades/drafts, it doesn't seem like there's much on the horizon with the exception of Boucher and maybe Matteau.

 

Kinkaid is not an alternate plan.  Lou trading for Schneider tells you everything, as far as how Lou feels about Kinkaid and Wedge.  He didn't think either one was capable of being a 50+ starting goalie.  Lou NEVER gives up the 9th-overall pick in the draft otherwise.  Even if Schneider leaves or is traded, I don't think Kinkaid and/or Wedge get much of a shot here.     

 

I think what some people are forgetting is that it IS possible to get players that can help you in the second round, third round, etc.  Elias was a 2nd-rounder.  It's not all first round or bust.   


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#125 SMantzas

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 04:27 PM

This worries me, especially after reading the thread over on hfbaords. Severson + for Cammillari seems to be the consensus..which would be absolutely nonsensical.


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#126 dmann422

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 05:01 PM

because in a business you always try to capitalize on your best opportunities and try to limit your loss. Thats a smart business model.

Snip

and by the way i never said we should tank and blow up the team. All im saying is that i dont want to give up ANY picks or prospects for a playoffs run this year.

apologies, this thread is going in several directions so it's hard to keep track of who's saying what. I totally agree to hang into picks and prospects, but I'm equally against pawning off guys who can help us make the playoffs.

I'm not sure your business analogy is quite apples to apples, seeing as how the nhl is perfectly cyclical whereas most industries are much more volatile and unpredictable, but I get the point. In the end we should try to find a balance between trying to win and making sure we are in a good position moving forward.
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#127 cgb6397

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 05:25 PM

Kinkaid is not an alternate plan.  Lou trading for Schneider tells you everything, as far as how Lou feels about Kinkaid and Wedge.  He didn't think either one was capable of being a 50+ starting goalie.  Lou NEVER gives up the 9th-overall pick in the draft otherwise.  Even if Schneider leaves or is traded, I don't think Kinkaid and/or Wedge get much of a shot here.     

 

I think what some people are forgetting is that it IS possible to get players that can help you in the second round, third round, etc.  Elias was a 2nd-rounder.  It's not all first round or bust.   

Are you kidding? Kinkaid has a good chance of coming up as soon as Marty's gone. If Schneider walks, that basically seals his fate as the next Jersey tender, unless Lou pulls another blockbuster move, and you said it yourself, that isn't likely at all.

 

Also, yeah, Lou might not have thought very highly of Kinkaid in the summer, but look at the season he's putting together now. Arguably the best goalie in the AHL


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#128 coldply123

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 05:28 PM

lol sure it does. glad to see you make this point after Jagr skated circles around Colorado in the 3rd period last night.


I stand by it moving forward. He looked terrible for a good five or six game stretch on his skates. Just a concern I have pal.
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#129 Lateralous

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 05:35 PM

apologies, this thread is going in several directions so it's hard to keep track of who's saying what. I totally agree to hang into picks and prospects, but I'm equally against pawning off guys who can help us make the playoffs.

I'm not sure your business analogy is quite apples to apples, seeing as how the nhl is perfectly cyclical whereas most industries are much more volatile and unpredictable, but I get the point. In the end we should try to find a balance between trying to win and making sure we are in a good position moving forward.

 

 

The only move I would like to see is trading Zidlicky if Lou can get a 1st round pick from someone like Anaheim that needs a puck mover.  We've had a logjam on defense for 2 years and while he's not the first guy I would want to move, he easily has the most value of any of our expendable veteran defenseman.  I think you can make that move without throwing up the white flag on this season because you have Larsson who needs a spot on the NHL roster.  

 

At the point Jagr gets moved we've completely given up on 2014 and that's not Lou's M.O.as we all know.     


Edited by Lateralous, 04 February 2014 - 05:37 PM.

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#130 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 05:43 PM

Are you kidding? Kinkaid has a good chance of coming up as soon as Marty's gone. If Schneider walks, that basically seals his fate as the next Jersey tender, unless Lou pulls another blockbuster move, and you said it yourself, that isn't likely at all.

 

Also, yeah, Lou might not have thought very highly of Kinkaid in the summer, but look at the season he's putting together now. Arguably the best goalie in the AHL

 

What?!  Kinkaid is now down to a .912 save%, and that's in the AHL (he was up to .927 at one point, which shows you that he's fallen off significantly).  Take a look at other goalies in the A right now...Kinkaid's overall numbers are nothing special (not to mention he's already 24 years old):

 

http://theahl.com/st..._id=-1&confId=0


Edited by Colorado Rockies 1976, 04 February 2014 - 05:47 PM.

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[Mark Messier]: A big, bald attention whore with a stupid Easter Island-lookin face. - from who else? DaneykoIsGod!

Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.
Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime?
- Most priceless quote ever posted on a message board.

Martin Brodeur: THE MOST ALL-TIME WINS!, 12 straight seasons of 30+ wins, 3 Stanley Cups, 4 Vezina Trophies, and zero respect from too many so-called Devils "fans" who are either too young or too bandwagon to remember the much darker days of Sean Burke, Craig Billington, Bob Sauve, Alain Chevrier, and the talented but overwhelmed Chico Resch, among many others.

It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

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20 out of 1,946 njdevs.com members agree: CR1976 is the Most Knowledgable Poster of 2008! Victory is mine...oh yes, victory is mine!

#131 Daniel

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 05:43 PM

The only move I would like to see is trading Zidlicky if Lou can get a 1st round pick from someone like Anaheim that needs a puck mover. We've had a logjam on defense for 2 years and while he's not the first guy I would want to move, he easily has the most value of any of our expendable veteran defenseman. I think you can make that move without throwing up the white flag on this season because you have Larsson who needs a spot on the NHL roster.

At the point Jagr gets moved we've completely given up on 2014 and that's not Lou's M.O.as we all know.


Anaheim has Cam Fowler, who's probably better at it than Zidlicky. I would guess that they're more interested in someone with "grit", who generally doesnt fetch something more than a third round pick in return.


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#132 Lateralous

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 05:48 PM

Are you kidding? Kinkaid has a good chance of coming up as soon as Marty's gone. If Schneider walks, that basically seals his fate as the next Jersey tender, unless Lou pulls another blockbuster move, and you said it yourself, that isn't likely at all.

 

Also, yeah, Lou might not have thought very highly of Kinkaid in the summer, but look at the season he's putting together now. Arguably the best goalie in the AHL

We're talking about the same GM who never gave Ari Ahonen a chance even as a backup despite doing pretty well in the AHL for several years?    There's always decent goalies, not necessarily at Schneiders level, available for relatively cheap on both the free agent and trade markets, so I'm not sure it's a big concern.  Besides, we'll just see Lou throw a temporary patch on the goaltending situation if Cory leaves just like he's done at every other position.      


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#133 Lateralous

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 05:51 PM

Anaheim has Cam Fowler, who's probably better at it than Zidlicky. I would guess that they're more interested in someone with "grit", who generally doesnt fetch something more than a third round pick in return.


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I swear I heard them say on the Ducks broadcast the other night that they would love to add a right handed puck moving defenseman (presumably 2nd pairing because of Fowler).  Zidlicky fits that description perfectly.

 

Regardless, I think he's the type of guy a lot of teams would like to add at the deadline and he's having a pretty good season.     


Edited by Lateralous, 04 February 2014 - 05:56 PM.

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#134 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 05:56 PM

We're talking about the same GM who never gave Ari Ahonen a chance even as a backup despite doing pretty well in the AHL for several years?    There's always decent goalies, not necessarily at Schneiders level, available for relatively cheap on both the free agent and trade markets, so I'm not sure it's a big concern.  Besides, we'll just see Lou throw a temporary patch on the goaltending situation if Cory leaves just like he's done at every other position.      

 

Ahonen wasn't anything special in the AHL.  Notice how no one traded for him...I don't even ever remember hearing his name in rumors...not even as a throw-in.  There's organizations always looking for good young goalies.  Ahonen played on some god-awful Rats teams, no doubt, but if someone thought he had something, they would've dealt for him...with Brodeur firmly entrenched as the #1 back then, a team probably wouldn't have had to give up that much to get him. 

 

I remember when Brodeur got hurt in 2005-06 (his knee), and Clemmy got a brief string of starts near the start of the season.  Ahonen got called up to back up (he never appeared in a game).  I saw him during warmups once, and he looked awful.  It may not mean much, but I remember being surprised at how bad he looked.  At any rate, I don't think the league or Lou somehow missed out on magic with him.  He just was a draft pick that didn't work out. 


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[Mark Messier]: A big, bald attention whore with a stupid Easter Island-lookin face. - from who else? DaneykoIsGod!

Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.
Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime?
- Most priceless quote ever posted on a message board.

Martin Brodeur: THE MOST ALL-TIME WINS!, 12 straight seasons of 30+ wins, 3 Stanley Cups, 4 Vezina Trophies, and zero respect from too many so-called Devils "fans" who are either too young or too bandwagon to remember the much darker days of Sean Burke, Craig Billington, Bob Sauve, Alain Chevrier, and the talented but overwhelmed Chico Resch, among many others.

It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

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#135 Devil Dan 56

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 06:39 PM

because in a business you always try to capitalize on your best opportunities and try to limit your loss. Thats a smart business model.  

 

On one hand you have winning the cup... which is HIGHLY unlikely. What if we do win the cup? Well great we have another cup of course its awesome but again, nothing would have changed and we'd have a worst team next season. Mayyybe have more interest from a few UFAs maybe? But if we don't win, we'd have a lesser "stock" team next season and 

 

On the other hand, NOT trading away young players, prospects or picks and trying to get a few. That's giving you options and more chances of getting players that could help. In this options at least the repercussions could help through the years. 

 

Always better in this situation to gamble and play safe on stuff you can control (getting picks or prospects to try to fill future holes eventhough its nothing sure is still a step in the right direction) rather than gambling giving some away hoping you can make it through 4 rounds of playoffs.

 

and by the way i never said we should tank and blow up the team. All im saying is that i dont want to give up ANY picks or prospects for a playoffs run this year.

 

I pretty much agree totally with your "lets not sell the farm" theory right now. The team has some good pieces going forward, and I'd like to hold on to most of them. But that part in bold above... I mean, the cup is the whole point!!! If they win a cup, it was worth it!!

 

But again, back to your main point...  I like a lot of the young pieces and I'd prefer to not part with them. Especially Gelinas, Merrill, Boucher,  Matteau, etc. Those are guys who aren't too far off from being regular contributes.


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#136 Mike Brown

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 06:41 PM

Yeah but we we're never this poor up front and lacking scoring. We need help NOW and there's NONE coming, it's not overreaction. If anything i think you're mentality in simply denial and to ignore the upcoming problems.

 

It's absolutely fair to be worried about our current lack of scoring + if you're looking at our prospects, nothing will help in the future. So if we want scoring we'll have to overpay for someone which is never good.

 

I'm not in denial about anything.  I'm being 100% realistic with everything I post.  We're like every other team in the league.  We're one or two players away from being a legit contender.  

 

And we can still overpay for a player, and still be in good shape.  We have the pieces where we can take a calculated risk, and still be fine.


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#137 thecoffeecake

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 10:48 PM

Is that really your best response to that question?  Now isn't the time to be discussing this.  Next year is the time to discuss this.

He hates it here as far as I can tell, and big time teams will throw big time money at him that we wont. "What makes you think he will stay" is a valid question to ask, because nothing is telling you he will. He didn't want to come here. He's having a rough go as it is. Give me one good reason why you're staying if you're Cory Schneider. The thesis of my argument is "trade Cory Schneider now", what does next year have to do with anything? I'm hoping he's wearing a Blues jersey this time next year, and there's nothing Cory related to discuss.

 

Kinkaid has a .912 in Albany, and I believe it was higher at one point. To think it would drop at the NHL is silly. Shots are shots, and he may be playing against a lower tier of forwards, but he's also playing behind a minor league defense. And if you think he doesn't have what it takes to compete in the NHL, you better hope Schneider gets moved before he walks. Do you want to see him sign somewhere else, and then have to give up a big prospect for another goaltender?

 

Trade him, bring in a capable goalie, bring in a few prospects. Done.


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#138 Mike Brown

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 10:52 PM

He hates it here as far as I can tell, and big time teams will throw big time money at him that we wont. "What makes you think he will stay" is a valid question to ask, because nothing is telling you he will. He didn't want to come here. He's having a rough go as it is. Give me one good reason why you're staying if you're Cory Schneider. The thesis of my argument is "trade Cory Schneider now", what does next year have to do with anything? I'm hoping he's wearing a Blues jersey this time next year, and there's nothing Cory related to discuss.

 

Kinkaid has a .912 in Albany, and I believe it was higher at one point. To think it would drop at the NHL is silly. Shots are shots, and he may be playing against a lower tier of forwards, but he's also playing behind a minor league defense. And if you think he doesn't have what it takes to compete in the NHL, you better hope Schneider gets moved before he walks. Do you want to see him sign somewhere else, and then have to give up a big prospect for another goaltender?

 

Trade him, bring in a capable goalie, bring in a few prospects. Done.

 

You have no idea what you're talking about.


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#139 thecoffeecake

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 11:03 PM

You have no idea what you're talking about.

I like how you supported that with evidence and data, or even a contrary opinion.


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#140 Mike Brown

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 11:05 PM

I like how you supported that with evidence and data, or even a contrary opinion.

 

Well you provided nothing.  So why should I provide anything?


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