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#41 Devilsfan118

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 01:51 PM

Just sheer idiocy, talks about history clearly hasn't looked for himself. Starting to think he's a troll because his stupidity is endless. It's actually becoming extremley infuriating because he has an opinion that conflicts with general consensus on everything. And even when he disproves himself and/or is shown facts to dispute his opinion he continues to stay stubborn.

 

I don't think he's trolling..I just don't think he realizes how frustrating he is.


Edited by Devilsfan118, 25 February 2014 - 03:00 PM.

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#42 Sneax

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 01:56 PM

Aspergers?


Edited by Sneax, 25 February 2014 - 01:57 PM.

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#43 CarterforPresident

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 02:14 PM

Arguments again now all going on in like three threads Jesus Christ, how old are we people? Hockey starts soon do we not all know this?
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#44 Mike Brown

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 02:29 PM

So... your argument is look at the top goalies, it's random. Then I show you it isn't. So now I have to look back at history. Did you ever think of just not posting if you don't know something?

 

It is random.  Would you like for me to make a list as well?


I have a theory about Mike that I won't share out of respect to his personal business, but I've known a few people (particularly old engineering classmates at Rutgers) that were like Mike in certain social situations.
 

I don't think he's trolling..I just don't think he realizes how frustrating he is.

 

I appreciate this post.  Thank you.


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#45 Devil Dan 56

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 02:41 PM

It is random.  Would you like for me to make a list as well?


 

I appreciate this post.  Thank you.

 

What list are you going to make? You said it's rare for a goalie to be drafted in the high rounds, CR1976 showed you it isn't. You suggested that the best goalies in the league are randomly placed throughout the draft, and I showed that more that half of the top 20 in save percentage were taken in the first 2 rounds. Are there randoms in there? Of course, but that goes for any position on the ice. You expect more from a 1st or 2nd round pick than you do from a 6th.


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#46 thecoffeecake

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 02:51 PM

I feel responsible for this mess. Let me weigh in enough to make a point, but not get involved enough to get yelled at. In fairness to mike, when saying goalies are a craps shoot, I'm fairly certain he was referring to draft picks. I'm not going to agree or disagree, because I have no idea. But him guessing kinkaid is going to be solid while maintaining the success of young goalies coming in are generally unpredictable isn't at all playing both sides. Kinkaid has years of professional experience we can use as a sample to decide either way. A seventeen year old coming out of a prep school in mass will be a bit up in the air, at least I think. I'm not a scout. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

I could've easily googled clermonts draft position and saved this whole thing.
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#47 Mike Brown

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 02:53 PM

What list are you going to make? You said it's rare for a goalie to be drafted in the high rounds, CR1976 showed you it isn't. You suggested that the best goalies in the league are randomly placed throughout the draft, and I showed that more that half of the top 20 in save percentage were taken in the first 2 rounds. Are there randoms in there? Of course, but that goes for any position on the ice. You expect more from a 1st or 2nd round pick than you do from a 6th.

 

What about other years besides this year?  

 

Goalies are more random than in any other position from what I can tell.  There's several ways I can prove my point.  But I'll start with Vezina winners.

 

2013: Bobrovsky - undrafted

2012: Lundqvist - 7th round

2011: Thomas - 9th round

2010: Miller - 5th round

2009: Thomas - 9th round

2008: Brodeur - 1st round

2007: Brodeur - 1st round

2006: Kiprusoff - 5th round

2004: Brodeur - 1st round

2003: Brodeur - 1st round

2002: Theodore - 2nd round

2001: Hasek - 10th round

2000: Kolzig - 1st round

1999: Hasek - 10th round

1998: Hasek - 10th round

1997: Hasek - 10th round

1996: Carey - 2nd round

1995: Hasek - 10th round

1994: Hasek - 10th round

1993: Belfour - undrafted

1992: Roy - 4th round

1991: Belfour - undrafted

1990: Roy - 4th round

 

Carey, Kolzig, Theodore, and Marty are the only ones of my list to be 1st or 2nd rounders.

 

Roy, Belfour, Hasek, Kipper, Thomas, Miller, Lundqvist, and Bobrovsky are all 4th round or later picks.


Edited by Mike Brown, 25 February 2014 - 02:59 PM.

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#48 thecoffeecake

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 02:58 PM


I think just posting this is a blatant disrespect of his personal business.

Edited by thecoffeecake, 26 February 2014 - 11:38 AM.

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#49 Devilsfan118

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 03:01 PM

I think just posting this is a blatant disrespect to his personal business.

 

I don't agree, I don't think it was in particularly poor taste - but I've removed it from the post and you should probably remove it from your quote if you feel any it's the right thing to do.

 

Regarding this thread..it's run its course.  I'm out.


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#50 CarterforPresident

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 03:09 PM

This thread is worse then high schoolers at times.
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#51 Devil Dan 56

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 03:13 PM

What about other years besides this year?  

 

Goalies are more random than in any other position from what I can tell.  There's several ways I can prove my point.  But I'll start with Vezina winners.

 

2013: Bobrovsky - undrafted

2012: Lundqvist - 7th round

2011: Thomas - 9th round

2010: Miller - 5th round

2009: Thomas - 9th round

2008: Brodeur - 1st round

2007: Brodeur - 1st round

2006: Kiprusoff - 5th round

2004: Brodeur - 1st round

2003: Brodeur - 1st round

2002: Theodore - 2nd round

2001: Hasek - 10th round

2000: Kolzig - 1st round

1999: Hasek - 10th round

1998: Hasek - 10th round

1997: Hasek - 10th round

1996: Carey - 2nd round

1995: Hasek - 10th round

1994: Hasek - 10th round

1993: Belfour - undrafted

1992: Roy - 4th round

1991: Belfour - undrafted

1990: Roy - 4th round

 

Carey, Kolzig, Theodore, and Marty are the only ones of my list to be 1st or 2nd rounders.

 

Roy, Belfour, Hasek, Kipper, Thomas, Miller, Lundqvist, and Bobrovsky are all 4th round or later picks.

 

That's a good list. And Roy was a 3rd round pick. But it doesn't disprove that in general the better goalies, like any other position, are drafted higher. You don't draft Dominic Hasek in the 10th rd expecting a Vezina. When Hasek was drafted, there was a lot of doubt over whether he would ever defect to the US. In fact, it took nearly a decade for him to join the NHL.  Of course there are anomalies, but the original discussion was from someone asking what was expected of Clermont. I said nothing much, you said goalies are a crapshoot and that they are rarely taken in the early rounds.


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#52 dmann422

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 03:17 PM

I feel responsible for this mess. Let me weigh in enough to make a point, but not get involved enough to get yelled at. In fairness to mike, when saying goalies are a craps shoot, I'm fairly certain he was referring to draft picks. I'm not going to agree or disagree, because I have no idea. But him guessing kinkaid is going to be solid while maintaining the success of young goalies coming in are generally unpredictable isn't at all playing both sides. Kinkaid has years of professional experience we can use as a sample to decide either way. A seventeen year old coming out of a prep school in mass will be a bit up in the air, at least I think. I'm not a scout. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

I could've easily googled clermonts draft position and saved this whole thing.

I'm not sure you understand what this fuss is about- After someone mentioned that clermont was a 6th round draft pick and will probably never make it past the ahl, Mike stated "you never know with goalies, they are such a crapshoot."

In another thread just 7 hours earlier, he proclaimed that Kinkaid, who is 2 years older, undrafted and putting up so-so numbers in the ahl "will be a solid goalie."

I've stuck up for mike before because I think he does bring good things to the forum, and I'm an optimist and a contrarian in my own way, but when he specifically and continuously contradicts himself like this it is very difficult to not call him out on it, and I can see perfectly well how many get annoyed at it. Unfortunately if he keeps it up very few people here will take his posts seriously anymore.
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#53 Mike Brown

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 03:21 PM


That's a good list. And Roy was a 3rd round pick. But it doesn't disprove that in general the better goalies, like any other position, are drafted higher. You don't draft Dominic Hasek in the 10th rd expecting a Vezina. When Hasek was drafted, there was a lot of doubt over whether he would ever defect to the US. In fact, it took nearly a decade for him to join the NHL.  Of course there are anomalies, but the original discussion was from someone asking what was expected of Clermont. I said nothing much, you said goalies are a crapshoot and that they are rarely taken in the early rounds.

 

Fair enough.  Listen I'm not expecting much from Clermont myself.  But I won't count him out since as I said you just never know with goalies.  At least in my opinion.

 

I'm not sure you understand what this fuss is about- After someone mentioned that clermont was a 6th round draft pick and will probably never make it past the ahl, Mike stated "you never know with goalies, they are such a crapshoot."

In another thread just 7 hours earlier, he proclaimed that Kinkaid, who is 2 years older, undrafted and putting up so-so numbers in the ahl "will be a solid goalie."

I've stuck up for mike before because I think he does bring good things to the forum, and I'm an optimist and a contrarian in my own way, but when he specifically and continuously contradicts himself like this it is very difficult to not call him out on it, and I can see perfectly well how many get annoyed at it. Unfortunately if he keeps it up very few people here will take his posts seriously anymore.

 

I didn't contradict myself.  I clearly said in the same thread that goalies are a crapshoot.  If you go back and read every post I made in that thread, you'd see that.  Would it have been better to make it into one post?


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#54 dmann422

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 04:16 PM

I didn't contradict myself. I clearly said in the same thread that goalies are a crapshoot. If you go back and read every post I made in that thread, you'd see that. Would it have been better to make it into one post?

edit: not worth it.

Edited by dmann422, 25 February 2014 - 04:42 PM.

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#55 Mike Brown

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 01:36 AM

edit: not worth it.

 

Regardless, here's what I mean.

 

I have watched Kinkaid a lot.  I like a lot of things he does.  He's pretty athletic, he's got good lateral movement, and is a decent puckhandler.  I think he has what it takes to make it in this league.  Granted, it's difficult to prognosticate goalies' futures in this league since mental toughness is hard to scout properly.  Goalies are just so hard to predict.


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