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#321 PuckDon't Lie

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 01:19 AM

Ruutu can play center.  But he is more suited for the wing.  Regarding breaking up the lines, I think the only line we shouldn't touch is the 2nd line of Henrique - Elias - Brunner.  I think the way Clowe is playing, he deserves a shot on the first line with Zajac and Jagr.  For the 3rd line, go with Ruutu - Zubrus - Ryder.

 

I'm skeptical about Zubs at center. I liked Zubs-Zajs-Jags. They had excellent zone possession. Clowe and Ryder seem to match up well together; I wouldn't want to break them up. I'd rather slide Yayo into the center role. That's why I don't really get really get where Ruutu fits. Pete will never change the 4th line. And I think the top 3 lines are set if Yayo replaces Lokti.


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#322 thefiestygoat

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 01:32 AM

It was still a 3rd line though.  He needs to be a 2nd line center in order to be good.  He never had skilled linemates here to be successful.

So 3rd line automatically equals grind line? I hardly call playing with the likes of Ryder, Zubrus, Brunner, and Jagr, his 4 most common linemates, as playing with guys that aren't skilled.


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#323 PuckDon't Lie

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 01:39 AM

So 3rd line automatically equals grind line? I hardly call playing with the likes of Ryder, Zubrus, Brunner, and Jagr, his 4 most common linemates, as playing with guys that aren't skilled.

 

I have no problem with his new linemates, but is it too late in the season to make such a dramatic change?


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#324 Mike Brown

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 03:15 AM

So 3rd line automatically equals grind line? I hardly call playing with the likes of Ryder, Zubrus, Brunner, and Jagr, his 4 most common linemates, as playing with guys that aren't skilled.

 

Problem is, he hasn't been producing enough to justify playing with our skilled guys, and he hasn't played a lot with Brunner and Jagr.  The bottom line is he doesn't really have a place on this team.  He's best used in a top 6 role with skilled linemates.  And there's nobody in our top 6 that's gonna get bumped.  There's a reason why he was being healthy scratched all the time, and why he wasn't happy being here.  The problem for him is, that Carolina won't be able to use him in a top 6 role either. But at least he'll get more playing time there.


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#325 thecoffeecake

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 03:32 AM

We know the Henrique line is staying put until production drops, which hopefully isn't soon. Unlikely they want to mess with the top line again. The only thing I can see is him centering the Newfies. I'll have to see his game a bit before I can really gauge what I think his role is going to be. I guess they can move Zubrus down to center Clowe and Ryder. But again, I don't know enough about Ruutu. I can't imagine there being drastic line shifting, especially with the way the team's been playing. I'd assume at first they'd slip him in somewhere they see him working without causing huge ripples in the lineup. So, I'll assume him in between Clowe and Ryder for at least tomorrow.


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#326 thefiestygoat

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 03:50 AM


Problem is, he hasn't been producing enough to justify playing with our skilled guys, and he hasn't played a lot with Brunner and Jagr.  The bottom line is he doesn't really have a place on this team.  He's best used in a top 6 role with skilled linemates.  And there's nobody in our top 6 that's gonna get bumped.  There's a reason why he was being healthy scratched all the time, and why he wasn't happy being here.  The problem for him is, that Carolina won't be able to use him in a top 6 role either. But at least he'll get more playing time there.

Loktionov didn't play a lot with Brunner and Jagr which is why they were his 3rd and 4th most common linemates...roughly 23.62% of his 5v5 time with Brunner and 21.33% with Jagr. Totally didn't play with them or any other skilled guys.
 
At the Olympic break Loktionov was the Devils 2nd most accurate passer, had the 2nd highest percentage of passes that resulted in a shot attempt, and had the 2nd best zone exit with possession percentage, along with being near the top in CF%. Offensively he was pulling his weight without a doubt. Obviously DeBoer didn't trust him defensively which is why they moved him.
 
This isn't a video game where lines 1 and 2 are "scoring", 3 "checking", and a 4th line. The Devils are pretty flexibile moving guys in different roles in the top 9 when they have to. I'm not trying to argue Loktionov vs. Ruutu just so we don't go there. I'm just pointing out that Loktionov wasn't playing with a bunch of nobodies.

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#327 Mike Brown

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 06:01 AM

 

Loktionov didn't play a lot with Brunner and Jagr which is why they were his 3rd and 4th most common linemates...roughly 23.62% of his 5v5 time with Brunner and 21.33% with Jagr. Totally didn't play with them or any other skilled guys.
 
At the Olympic break Loktionov was the Devils 2nd most accurate passer, had the 2nd highest percentage of passes that resulted in a shot attempt, and had the 2nd best zone exit with possession percentage, along with being near the top in CF%. Offensively he was pulling his weight without a doubt. Obviously DeBoer didn't trust him defensively which is why they moved him.
 
This isn't a video game where lines 1 and 2 are "scoring", 3 "checking", and a 4th line. The Devils are pretty flexibile moving guys in different roles in the top 9 when they have to. I'm not trying to argue Loktionov vs. Ruutu just so we don't go there. I'm just pointing out that Loktionov wasn't playing with a bunch of nobodies.

 

He was averaging 12 minutes a game.  He needs to be in a top 6 role with more than 3rd line minutes to be effective.  That's his best chance at producing.  He was not gonna get that on this team.  And considering he's not a good winger, he needs to be a center.  He's most definitely not bumping Zajac and Elias.  Ruutu is a better fit for this team.  And overall he's better.


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#328 Chimaira_Devil_#9

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 07:22 AM

He was averaging 12 minutes a game.  He needs to be in a top 6 role with more than 3rd line minutes to be effective.  That's his best chance at producing.  He was not gonna get that on this team.  And considering he's not a good winger, he needs to be a center.  He's most definitely not bumping Zajac and Elias.  Ruutu is a better fit for this team.  And overall he's better.

 

The reason he was only getting 12 minutes is because he hasn’t been used in all situations at Feisty pointed out, he is a niche player used almost exclusively in the opposition end. The other minutes he didn’t get were probably not going to be in situations where he would have had a chance to score anyway. All our guys in the top six play both ends of the ice incredibly well, if you can’t do that you are not going to get as many minutes.

 

Loktianov was given the minutes in the situations he was suited for, and still didn’t produce that much. Considering Gionta is used pretty much exclusively in defensive situations, has the same amount of average TOI per game and only has 3 less points than Lokti says it all.

Lokti was placed with players who suited his game, he just didn't do enough with his TOI.


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#329 moustic

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 07:45 AM

 

It was posted already right ? (sorry if it's the case)

So many history with Devils or Devils player (the sick sick goal versus Canada/Marty) 


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#330 Marshall

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 07:50 AM

Loktianov was given the minutes in the situations he was suited for, and still didn’t produce that much

 

 

I'd disagree with that. He got less PP time (9% instead of 26%) and more SH time this year. Last year he played with Kovalchuk, this year primarily with Ryder. Yeah, he got (a lot) more o-zone starts but given how poor this team is at scoring 5v5, it's tough to hold his production against him (relative to the rest of the team). Hell, I think your statement works for 10 or 11 out of NJ's forwards. 


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#331 SterioDesign

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 08:03 AM

well he scored a SO goal in that video. Thats already better than 100% of our roster now since Boucher is not here anymore lol


Edited by SterioDesign, 07 March 2014 - 08:03 AM.

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#332 Chimaira_Devil_#9

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 08:46 AM

I'd disagree with that. He got less PP time (9% instead of 26%) and more SH time this year. Last year he played with Kovalchuk, this year primarily with Ryder. Yeah, he got (a lot) more o-zone starts but given how poor this team is at scoring 5v5, it's tough to hold his production against him (relative to the rest of the team). Hell, I think your statement works for 10 or 11 out of NJ's forwards. 

 

His level of production was more an afterthought when looking at the statistics. Clearly a number of players are underperforming compared to what was expected.

 

Feisty was pointing out that he was getting time with skilled players in the time that he was on ice, and Mike stated that he needed more minutes with skilled players to be successful.

 

I was just pointing out that our top 6 players tend to get minutes in situations that Lokti was not suited for, and just giving him more minutes with those players wouldn’t have necessarily lead to more success or better production. Mike has posed similar arguments for players like Bernier. Basically that the whole 2nd line , 3rd line thing doesn't really apply that much in reality.  

Last year is irrelevant because he has still been given oppertunities this year with the best of what we have. Mike was suggesting he had been playing with Gionta and Carter ina purley defensive setting for only 12 minutes a game, where the staticstics would indicate otherwise. 


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#333 devilsrule33

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Posted 22 March 2014 - 11:57 PM

If anyone still wants to point the blame on Deboer ans avoid larger problems...just look at this trade. With so many players available cheap like Legwand, Hemsky, Vanek, etc...Lou thinks the player this team needs to get them over the hump is Rutuu. A guy with two more years on his deal at over $4 million and 5 goals in 57 games at the time of the deal.

 

All that plus his reasons for making the deal (watching 60 games of this team and thinking this is what they were missing), to bringing up the player he was in a 2009 playoff series makes this one of the worst deals imaginable. Now he is just more of the same on a team full of Ruutu like players.


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#334 iamtheprodigy

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 12:20 AM

If anyone still wants to point the blame on Deboer ans avoid larger problems...just look at this trade. With so many players available cheap like Legwand, Hemsky, Vanek, etc...Lou thinks the player this team needs to get them over the hump is Rutuu. A guy with two more years on his deal at over $4 million and 5 goals in 57 games at the time of the deal.

 

All that plus his reasons for making the deal (watching 60 games of this team and thinking this is what they were missing), to bringing up the player he was in a 2009 playoff series makes this one of the worst deals imaginable. Now he is just more of the same on a team full of Ruutu like players.

 

I hate comments like these. Do you seriously think that Lou doesn't know that the team needs more scoring? Jesus, he's a great GM, and you're just some fan. Obviously he wanted to acquire scoring but wasn't able to given the assets that the team has and what was available. It's so easy to say "Get Vanek" or "Get Legwand" (neither of these players are even that good, but that's besides the point). You are not a GM. You don't know what the relationship is like between Lou and the GMs of those teams. You don't know if Lou made offers, or if Lou even would have been able to get any of those players for the price they went for (just because that's what they were traded for, doesn't mean that ALL teams could have made a comparable trade).

 

Ruutu hasn't even been bad since he got here. He's fine. He just can't single-handedly correct the lack of offensive depth that there is throughout the entire organization. It's going to take years of good drafting and prospect development to do that. No amount of trade deadline moves or off-season free agent signings was going to fix the problems we have.

 

And since you seem to think otherwise, Vanek or Legwand or any of the guys traded at the deadline are NOT turning this team into a playoff team right now, so any draft picks we would have had to give up for them would have been a waste anyway.


Edited by iamtheprodigy, 23 March 2014 - 12:22 AM.

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#335 Triumph

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 12:26 AM

If anyone still wants to point the blame on Deboer ans avoid larger problems...just look at this trade. With so many players available cheap like Legwand, Hemsky, Vanek, etc...Lou thinks the player this team needs to get them over the hump is Rutuu. A guy with two more years on his deal at over $4 million and 5 goals in 57 games at the time of the deal.

 

All that plus his reasons for making the deal (watching 60 games of this team and thinking this is what they were missing), to bringing up the player he was in a 2009 playoff series makes this one of the worst deals imaginable. Now he is just more of the same on a team full of Ruutu like players.

 

Legwand was not 'available cheap'.  Calle Jarnkrok would be NJ's 2nd best forward prospect if he were in their system.  Hemsky was available cheap - he is not a scorer and not really what the Devils need.  Vanek was available cheap but only because of how things shook out on deadline day.

 

I agree that Ruutu is not the answer but if it means Zubrus being bounced this off-season it's a fine trade.


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#336 Daniel

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 12:46 AM

Legwand was not 'available cheap'. Calle Jarnkrok would be NJ's 2nd best forward prospect if he were in their system. Hemsky was available cheap - he is not a scorer and not really what the Devils need. Vanek was available cheap but only because of how things shook out on deadline day.

I agree that Ruutu is not the answer but if it means Zubrus being bounced this off-season it's a fine trade.


You can't really call Vanek cheap. There's the second and also Colberg, who some people really like, Pronman being one of them. In the end Ruutu cost us virtually nothing, so whatevs.


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#337 devilsrule33

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 12:48 AM

I hate comments like these. Do you seriously think that Lou doesn't know that the team needs more scoring? Jesus, he's a great GM, and you're just some fan. Obviously he wanted to acquire scoring but wasn't able to given the assets that the team has and what was available. It's so easy to say "Get Vanek" or "Get Legwand" (neither of these players are even that good, but that's besides the point). You are not a GM. You don't know what the relationship is like between Lou and the GMs of those teams. You don't know if Lou made offers, or if Lou even would have been able to get any of those players for the price they went for (just because that's what they were traded for, doesn't mean that ALL teams could have made a comparable trade).

 

Ruutu hasn't even been bad since he got here. He's fine. He just can't single-handedly correct the lack of offensive depth that there is throughout the entire organization. It's going to take years of good drafting and prospect development to do that. No amount of trade deadline moves or off-season free agent signings was going to fix the problems we have.

 

And since you seem to think otherwise, Vanek or Legwand or any of the guys traded at the deadline are NOT turning this team into a playoff team right now, so any draft picks we would have had to give up for them would have been a waste anyway.

 

I'll take Legwand back, if what Tri is saying is true. Hemsky has been ridiculously good in Ottawa. I'm not one to usually point out the players the Devils could have had, but I hated this trade since day one. If Lou had to make a trade, there were better players to be had that really fit their needs. He possibly tried for all of the guys, but I would have gladly been happy with none over Ruutu. No one gave an arm and a leg for any player at the deadline.

 

None of those guys may be getting the Devils over the hump, but they are UFAs. If you wanted Rutuu, you could have gotten him for much less in free agency when the Canes amnesty him. This isn't meant to be hate on Rutuu because hs is a decent enough player. But it was a bad deal that looks worse now when they are out of it.

 

Lou was a great GM. I don't think you can say he is a great GM anymore. You say there is lack of offensive depth, and it'll take years of drafting and development. Well whose fault is that and who can you trust to fix it.


Edited by devilsrule33, 23 March 2014 - 01:34 AM.

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#338 Neb00rs

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 05:52 AM

I don't think for a second Legwand wanted to go to the Devils. If we was going to leave Nashville, it was to Detroit or better. Hemksy, to me, would not have worked in this system - we are not big on 1st or 2nd line forwards who can't play the penalty kill. Vanek would have been nice - can't play the PK - but he's fvckin' Vanek.

 

As far as Lou goes, I think he has done a pretty good job considering he's had to draft in the bottom 10 for years. We have been in the playoffs most of the time and recently the SCF. In the future we will only really be able to blame Lou for 2 draft picks: one is Larsson, who the jury is still out on and the other is the number 9 pick traded for Cory who the jury is also still out on as far as his tenure on the Devils is concerned. The uses of both picks might very well turn out to be great decisions. 


Edited by Neb00rs, 23 March 2014 - 06:02 AM.

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#339 Mike Brown

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 07:59 AM

I'll take Legwand back, if what Tri is saying is true. Hemsky has been ridiculously good in Ottawa. I'm not one to usually point out the players the Devils could have had, but I hated this trade since day one. If Lou had to make a trade, there were better players to be had that really fit their needs. He possibly tried for all of the guys, but I would have gladly been happy with none over Ruutu. No one gave an arm and a leg for any player at the deadline.

 

None of those guys may be getting the Devils over the hump, but they are UFAs. If you wanted Rutuu, you could have gotten him for much less in free agency when the Canes amnesty him. This isn't meant to be hate on Rutuu because hs is a decent enough player. But it was a bad deal that looks worse now when they are out of it.

 

Lou was a great GM. I don't think you can say he is a great GM anymore. You say there is lack of offensive depth, and it'll take years of drafting and development. Well whose fault is that and who can you trust to fix it.

 

Loktionov wanted out.  That's why Lou made the deal.  Ruutu is a very good and underrated player, and he gave up peanuts to get him.  I can't see how this was a bad deal.

 

The bottom line is, you can't just look at what the Oilers got for Hemsky, and what the Islanders got for Vanek and say Lou dropped the ball.  Lou could have offered even better packages for both of those players, but bottom line is that the Oilers and Islanders ultimately had the final say in which team they're trading their players to.


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#340 mfitz804

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 09:35 AM

This forum is awesome. 17 pages about a nonsense trade. Does anyone really think they made this trade thinking it solved all their problems?

No, they got something for Loktionov rather than watching him walk away. He was a non factor and so is Ruutu.
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