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Check out what the Devils front office just sent me along with my play


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#141 DJ Eco

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 01:38 PM

When I asked about the rest, HE SUGGESTED SELLING THEM ON THE SECONDARY MARKET!   Pointed out the scalping laws have been repealed and even said, "what A LOT of our full-season ticket holders do is sell a few of the premium games for a nice profit to off-set their costs."  That turned into a debate about the value of devils tickets on the secondary market.  Let's just say I pointed out that I would want to USE the premium games as I had said (rangers, pen, flyers), and a few other things about Devils tickets that didnt make him too happy.

 

Just to add to what you said, there are some other games that are considered "Premium", like Chicago, Detroit, Los Angeles, Boston (I think). I guess they're just the in-demand teams the average hockey fan around here is inclined to go check out.

 

But yeah, not sure they're worth that much on the secondary market that they'd offset much of our season ticket costs.


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#142 skeeter

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 02:02 PM

The issue is that this only applies to what they call 'legal scalping'. Both NJ and NY have passed harsh restrictions on how much you can resell tickets for, what you have to do to be eligible to sell tickets, and where you can sell the tickets. In other words, the protection you have mentioned pretty much protects no one.

I think this is important for the board to see so I have pasted the law below and I have picked out and enlarged the operative clauses beforehand.

From the NJDCA Consumer Fraud Act:

Operative sections that I have picked out:

56:8‐27 Requirements for ticket broker.
2. No ticket broker shall engage in or continue in the business of reselling tickets for admission to
a place of entertainment without meeting the following requirements:

a. Owning, operating or maintaining a permanent office, branch office, bureau, agency, or other
place of business, not including a post office box, for the purpose of reselling tickets;

b. Obtaining a certificate of registration to resell or engage in the business of reselling tickets from
the director;

c. Listing the ticket broker's registration number in any form of advertisement or solicitation in
which tickets are being sold for the purpose of purchase by the general public for events in this State;

d. Maintaining records of ticket sales, deposits and refunds for a period of not less than two years
from the time of any of these transactions;


56:8‐32. Display of license; copies
Immediately upon the receipt of the license issued pursuant to this act, the licensee shall display and
maintain his license in a conspicuous place in his principal office for reselling tickets. He shall request copies
of the license from the director for the purpose of displaying a copy of the license in each branch office,
bureau or agency and the director may charge a fee for the copies.



b. No person other than a registered ticket broker shall resell or purchase with the intent to resell
a ticket for admission to a place of entertainment at a maximum premium in excess of 20% of the ticket price
or $3.00, whichever is greater, plus lawful taxes. No registered ticket broker shall resell or purchase with the
intent to resell a ticket for admission to a place of entertainment at a premium in excess of 50% of the price
paid to acquire the ticket, plus lawful taxes.


56:8‐34 Reselling tickets prohibited in certain area; exceptions.
9. a. No person shall resell or purchase with the intent to resell any ticket, in or on any street,
highway, driveway, sidewalk, parking area, or common area owned by a place of entertainment in this State,
or any other area adjacent to or in the vicinity of any place of entertainment in this State as determined by the
director; except that a person may resell, in an area which may be designated by a place of entertainment in
this State, any ticket or tickets originally purchased for his own personal or family use at no greater than the
lawful price permitted under this act.


56:8‐37. Violations; penalty
Any person who violates any provision of this act shall be guilty of a crime of the fourth degree.

Full law:

56:8‐26 Definitions.

1. As used in this act:

a. "Director" means the director of the Division of Consumer Affairs in the Department of Law and
Public Safety.

b. "Division" means the Division of Consumer Affairs in the Department of Law and Public Safety.

c. "Person" means corporations, companies, associations, societies, firms, partnerships and joint
stock companies as well as individuals.

d. "Place of entertainment" means any privately or publicly owned and operated entertainment
facility within this State, such as a theater, stadium, museum, arena, racetrack or other place where
performances, concerts, exhibits, games or contests are held and for which an entry fee is charged.

e. "Ticket" means any piece of paper which indicates that the bearer has paid for entry or other
evidence which permits entry to a place of entertainment.

f. "Ticket broker" means any person situated in and operating in this State who is involved in the
business of reselling tickets of admission to places of entertainment and who charges a premium in excess of
the price, plus taxes, printed on the tickets. For the purposes of this act, the term "ticket broker" shall not
include an individual not regularly engaged in the business of reselling tickets, who resells less than 30 tickets
during any one‐year period, and who obtained the tickets for his own use, or the use of his family, friends, or
acquaintances.

g. "Resale" means a sale by a person other than the owner or operator of a place of
entertainment or of the entertainment event or an agent of any such person.
J Division of Consumer Affairs
Consumer Fraud Act

Post: 9/2011 Page 23

h. "Resell" means to offer for resale or to consummate a resale.

i. "Digger" means a person temporarily hired for the purpose of securing tickets by intimidating a
purchaser waiting in line to procure event tickets.

L.1983, c.135, s.1; amended 1983, c.220, s.1; 2001, c.394, s.1; 2008, c.55, s.1.

56:8‐27 Requirements for ticket broker.
2. No ticket broker shall engage in or continue in the business of reselling tickets for admission to
a place of entertainment without meeting the following requirements:

a. Owning, operating or maintaining a permanent office, branch office, bureau, agency, or other
place of business, not including a post office box, for the purpose of reselling tickets;

b. Obtaining a certificate of registration to resell or engage in the business of reselling tickets from
the director;

c. Listing the ticket broker's registration number in any form of advertisement or solicitation in
which tickets are being sold for the purpose of purchase by the general public for events in this State;

d. Maintaining records of ticket sales, deposits and refunds for a period of not less than two years
from the time of any of these transactions;

e. Disclosing to the purchaser, by means of verbal description or a map, the location of the seats
represented by the tickets;

f. Disclosing to the purchaser the cancellation policy of that broker;

g. Disclosing that a service charge is added by the ticket broker to the stated price on the tickets
and is included by the broker in any advertisement or promotion for an event;

h. Disclosing to the purchaser, whenever applicable, that the ticket broker has a guarantee policy.
If a ticket broker guarantees delivery of tickets to a purchaser and fails to deliver the tickets, the ticket broker
shall provide a full refund for the cost of the tickets;

i. Disclosing to the purchaser of tickets when he is utilizing a tentative order policy, popularly
known as a "try and get." When a ticket broker fails to obtain tickets on a "try and get" basis, the broker shall
refund any deposit made by a purchaser of those tickets within a reasonable time, as shall be determined by
the director;

j. When guaranteeing tickets in conjunction with providing a tour package, a ticket broker who
fails to provide a purchaser with those tickets shall refund fully the price of the tour package and tickets; and


k. Providing to a purchaser of tickets who cancels an order a full refund for the cost of the tickets
less shipping charges, if those tickets are returned to the broker within three days after receipt; provided, that
when tickets are purchased within seven days of an event, a refund shall be given only if the tickets are
returned within one day of receipt; and further provided, that no refund shall be given on any tickets
purchased within six days of an event unless the ticket broker is able to resell the tickets.

L.1983,c.135,s.2; amended 1983, c.220, s.2; 2001, c.394, s.2.

56:8‐28 Application for registration, fee.
3. a. The division shall prepare and furnish to applicants for registration application forms and
requirements prescribed by the director pertaining to the applications for and the issuance of certificates of
registration to ticket brokers.

b. Every applicant for a certificate of registration to engage in the business of reselling tickets as a
ticket broker shall file a written application with the division on the form furnished by, and consistent with,
the regulations prescribed by the director.

c. Each application shall be accompanied by a fee which shall be determined by the director and
shall not exceed $500, and a description of the location where the applicant proposes to conduct his business.

L.1983,c.135,s.3; amended 2001, c.394, s.3.

56:8‐29 Issuance of certificate of registration.
4. a. Within 120 days after receipt of the completed application, fee and bond, if any, and when the
director is satisfied that the applicant has complied with all of the requirements of this act, the director shall
grant and issue a certificate of registration to the applicant.

b. The certificate of registration granted may be renewed for a period of two years upon the
payment of a renewal fee which shall be determined by the director and shall not exceed $500.

c. No certificate of registration shall be transferred or assigned without the approval of the
director. Any request for a change in the location of the premises operated by any registrant situated in and
operating in this State shall be submitted to the director in writing no less than 30 days prior to that
relocation. The certificate of registration shall run to January 1 in the second year next ensuing the date
thereof unless sooner revoked by the director.

L.1983,c.135,s.4; amended 2001, c.394, s.4.

56:8‐30 Bond required to engage in business of reselling tickets as a ticket broker.
5. The director shall require the applicant for a certificate of registration to engage in the business
of reselling tickets as a ticket broker to file with the application a bond in the amount of $10,000.00 with two NJ Division of Consumer Affairs
Consumer Fraud Act

Post: 9/2011 Page 25

or more sufficient sureties or an authorized surety company, which bond shall be approved by the director.

Each bond shall be conditioned on the promise that the applicant, his agents or employees will not be
guilty of fraud or extortion, will not violate any of the provisions of this act, will comply with the rules and
regulations promulgated by the director, and will pay all damages occasioned to any person by reason of
misstatement, misrepresentation, fraud or deceit or any unlawful act or omission in connection with the
provisions of this act and the business conducted under this act.

L.1983,c.135,s.5; amended 2001, c.394, s.5.

56:8‐31. Revocation or suspension of license
The director, after notice to the licensee and reasonable opportunity for the licensee to be heard, may
revoke his license or may suspend his license for any period which the director deems proper, upon
satisfactory proof that the licensee has violated this act, any condition of his license or any rule or regulation
of the division promulgated pursuant to this act.

L.1983, c. 135, s. 6.

56:8‐32. Display of license; copies
Immediately upon the receipt of the license issued pursuant to this act, the licensee shall display and
maintain his license in a conspicuous place in his principal office for reselling tickets. He shall request copies
of the license from the director for the purpose of displaying a copy of the license in each branch office,
bureau or agency and the director may charge a fee for the copies.

L.1983, c. 135, s. 7.

56:8‐33 Price charged printed on ticket, maximum premium for reseller; exceptions.

8. a. Each place of entertainment shall print on the face of each ticket and include in any advertising for
any event the price charged therefor.

b. No person other than a registered ticket broker shall resell or purchase with the intent to resell
a ticket for admission to a place of entertainment at a maximum premium in excess of 20% of the ticket price
or $3.00, whichever is greater, plus lawful taxes. No registered ticket broker shall resell or purchase with the
intent to resell a ticket for admission to a place of entertainment at a premium in excess of 50% of the price
paid to acquire the ticket, plus lawful taxes.

c. Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection a. or b. of this section, nothing shall limit the price
for the resale or purchase of a ticket for admission to a place of entertainment sold by any person other than a
registered ticket broker, provided such resale or purchase is made through an Internet web site.
L.1983, c.135, s.8; amended 1983, c.220, s.3; 2001, c.394, s.6; 2008, c.55, s.2.
NJ Division of Consumer Affairs
Consumer Fraud Act

Post: 9/2011 Page 26

56:8‐34 Reselling tickets prohibited in certain area; exceptions.
9. a. No person shall resell or purchase with the intent to resell any ticket, in or on any street,
highway, driveway, sidewalk, parking area, or common area owned by a place of entertainment in this State,
or any other area adjacent to or in the vicinity of any place of entertainment in this State as determined by the
director; except that a person may resell, in an area which may be designated by a place of entertainment in
this State, any ticket or tickets originally purchased for his own personal or family use at no greater than the
lawful price permitted under this act.

L.1983,c.135,s.9; amended 1983, c.220, s.4; 2001, c.394, s.7.

56:8‐35. Special treatment in obtaining tickets; prohibition
Any person who gives or offers anything of value to an employee of a place of entertainment in exchange
for, or as an inducement to, special treatment with respect to obtaining tickets, or any employee of a place of
entertainment who receives or solicits anything of value in exchange for special treatment with respect to
issuing tickets, shall be in violation of this act.

L.1983, c. 135, s. 10. Amended by L.1983, c. 220, s. 5.

56:8‐35.1 Withholding tickets from sale, prohibited amount.
8. It shall be an unlawful practice for a person, who has access to tickets to an event prior to the
tickets' release for sale to the general public, to withhold those tickets from sale to the general public in an
amount exceeding 5% of all available seating for the event.

L.2001,c.394,s.8.

56:8‐35.2 Refunds prohibited under certain circumstances.
9. A purchaser of tickets who places a special order with a ticket broker for tickets that are not in
stock or are obtained for a purchaser's specific need and are paid for in advance by the ticket broker, shall not
be eligible to receive a refund for that purchase unless the ticket broker is able to find someone else to
purchase the tickets and as long as the purchaser is notified in advance of this policy.
L.2001,c.394,s.9.

56:8‐35.3 Method for lawful sell back.
11. The director and places of entertainment shall create a method for season ticket holders and other
ticket holders to lawfully sell back tickets to the venue for events they will not be able to attend.

L.2001,c.394,s.11.

56:8‐35.4 Use of digger unlawful.
12. It shall be an unlawful practice for a person to use a digger to acquire any ticket.
L.2001,c.394,s.12.
NJ Division of Consumer Affairs
Consumer Fraud Act

Post: 9/2011 Page 27

56:8‐36. Rules and regulations
The director, pursuant to the provisions of the "Administrative Procedure Act," P.L.1968, c. 410 (C. 52:14B‐
1 et seq.), shall promulgate rules and regulations necessary to implement this act.

L.1983, c. 135, s. 11.

56:8‐37. Violations; penalty
Any person who violates any provision of this act shall be guilty of a crime of the fourth degree.

L.1983, c. 135, s. 12.

56:8‐38. Nonprofit or political organizations; application of act
The provisions of this act shall not apply to any person who sells, raffles or otherwise disposes of the ticket
for a bona fide nonprofit or political organization when the premium proceeds are devoted to the lawful
purposes of the organization.

L.1983, c. 135, s. 13.


This is almost as long as the average Pepperkorn post.
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#143 dmann422

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 02:29 PM

This is almost as long as the average Pepperkorn post.

yes but it's much easier to understand.
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#144 Matteau#32

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 02:44 PM

I just received my invoices for the play-offs and next season.  This was on the 3rd page, and I am sure the Devils have something similar.

 

Madison Square Garden Ticket Subscription Terms and Conditions

  1. Renewal privilege is extended at the option of MSG and is subject to revocation at any time. Accordingly MSG, in its sole discretion, reserves the right for any reason whatsoever (i.e., with or without cause) not to renew any Ticket Subscription (“Subscription”) or to change the seat location previously assigned to any Subscription.
  2. Upon receipt of Tickets, risk of loss or theft of Tickets shall pass to Subscriber. MSG shall not be obligated to admit Subscriber to events unless applicable Tickets are presented at such time.
  3. Tickets and Subscriptions are personal licenses revocable at the sole discretion of MSG, with or without cause, including without limitation, for improper conduct by any Subscriber (including guests of other holders of any Tickets), non-usage or otherwise, as determined by MSG in its sole discretion. Upon such revocation, MSG shall refund that portion of the Subscription price as related to unused Tickets returned to MSG’s Box Office for unplayed games, provided all such Tickets for unplayed games as of the effective date of the revocation are retuned at least two business days prior to the first such unplayed game (or such later unplayed game as may be designated by MSG in its sole discretion).

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#145 mfitz804

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 04:27 PM

Agree, I prefer the frisking. I feel safer.


Easy fix...train the Devils Dancers to do the frisking. No more complaints!
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#146 njdevil26

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 10:46 AM

The thing that blows my mind is the need to identify "brokers" to begin with. Outside of Ranger games, does anyone actually make a profit selling Devils tickets? You can regularly find tickets in the 100s for less than $20. Why would people buy season tickets only to make 50% of their cost back on the secondary market? 

 

Seems to me that they are just trying to take the secondary market out of the equation all together to justify the box office prices.


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#147 Neb00rs

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 11:06 AM

The thing that blows my mind is the need to identify "brokers" to begin with. Outside of Ranger games, does anyone actually make a profit selling Devils tickets? You can regularly find tickets in the 100s for less than $20. Why would people buy season tickets only to make 50% of their cost back on the secondary market? 

 

Seems to me that they are just trying to take the secondary market out of the equation all together to justify the box office prices.

 

I think it's safe to say that not many people are making a living off of selling Devils tickets.


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#148 Matt Derek

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 02:46 PM

Maybe the Devils should ban season ticket holders that give away their tickets to friends if they can't go to the game...  after all, the box office can't compete with free tickets.

 

Absolutely insane that they'd revoke season tickets from someone, even if they sell every single game.  And you know the Devils (and a lot of other teams) are using the secondary market to sell tickets, as well.


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#149 Satans Hockey

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 06:36 PM

Just gonna ramble a bit here about this.

I was told the Devils use an outside service that does the searches on seats that are sold. They got a list from this company and that's how they went about this. this service isn't completely accurate though but they had the ticket representatives check the list and make sure nobody was on the list that wasn't suppose to be. How I ended up there must be from the lockout season.

I expressed my frustrations of how unclear they are with this. Firstly they never sent anything out before the lockout season that you couldn't sell as many tickets as you wanted.

They said they are doing this to increase value in our seasons. Translation is they want stubhub out of the picture because we can sell our tickets for whatever we want on stubhub instead of ticket exchange where you can't sell em before face value.

I got everything fixed but this whole thing is such a joke and I have a feeling its only going to get worse.
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#150 devils744

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 06:55 PM

quick question, maybe someone knows the answer. if there are other season ticket holders in your row, and on stubhub you don't list the seat numbers, how can they track who is the seller?

Edited by devils744, 18 March 2014 - 06:56 PM.

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#151 TheRedStorm

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 07:36 PM

The thing that blows my mind is the need to identify "brokers" to begin with. Outside of Ranger games, does anyone actually make a profit selling Devils tickets? You can regularly find tickets in the 100s for less than $20. Why would people buy season tickets only to make 50% of their cost back on the secondary market? 

 

Seems to me that they are just trying to take the secondary market out of the equation all together to justify the box office prices.

 

The successful brokers/scalpers are buying good seats, not balcony or upper level. Reason? Perhaps that an opposing team's fan(s) will splurge because they can't on tickets for those teams at their rinks. Year in and year out at the games or on TV, you can see what seats these brokers/scalpers own behind the bench or in certain levels/sections because there is a NYR or Flyer fan or whomever fan in them. These brokers must be making a profit that keeps them coming back year after year.

 

Think about how many home games the Devils have vs the Rangers, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, Boston and now Detroit. These are teams with large followings. The brokers and scalpers make their $ on these types of teams. The rest? If they sell them for break even at worst it's still a successful season.


Edited by TheRedStorm, 18 March 2014 - 07:38 PM.

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#152 95Crash

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 07:44 PM

quick question, maybe someone knows the answer. if there are other season ticket holders in your row, and on stubhub you don't list the seat numbers, how can they track who is the seller?

 

I was wondering that too.


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#153 hystyk28

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 07:45 PM

They should be happy ANYONE is spending a dollar on this product.

For all you Sestito bashers out there, I'll take him any day. This team has no heart and has no hunger.
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#154 Satans Hockey

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 07:49 PM

Stubhub only recently made seat numbers optional. That might be there way of fighting this.
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#155 2ELIAS6

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 08:35 PM

They should be happy ANYONE is spending a dollar on this product.
For all you Sestito bashers out there, I'll take him any day. This team has no heart and has no hunger.

seriously.. just as someone else said in an earlier post.. most of this team is just a lot of dead weight
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#156 Blown01NJ

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 08:44 PM

Stubhub only recently made seat numbers optional. That might be there way of fighting this.

Wait. What?


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#157 Satans Hockey

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 09:25 PM

Wait. What?


Stubhub use to make you put in the seat numbers, they recently changed that to optional.

I'm just speculating but maybe stubhub did that so companies like the ones the devils use can't get the information about what seats are being sold.
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#158 devils744

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 09:27 PM

Stubhub use to make you put in the seat numbers, they recently changed that to optional.

I'm just speculating but maybe stubhub did that so companies like the ones the devils use can't get the information about what seats are being sold.


if you use their app, you have to insert your seat numbers but if you use their actual site, not mobile, they aren't required.

so for anyone who wants to relocate to a different section and row, make sure you ask your rep or whoever if there are any other season ticket holders in that row and if so how many before you move,

Edited by devils744, 18 March 2014 - 09:28 PM.

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