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Of all the times Lou has curiously fired coaches out of the blue


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#41 RizzMB30

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 10:44 AM

Rebuilds are terrible ideas.  Yeah, there's not a ton of forwards here.  That's too bad.  But there are a lot of defensemen, and Lou traded for a top goaltender.  The Schneider deal is really the only recent deal that absurdly privileges the present over the future - that and not dropping the 29th overall pick, which he's been to a large degree bailed out for.

 

If the Devils were dropping players left and right for overpriced veterans, sure.  Loktionov was dealt - he wasn't a guy NJ drafted, and I doubt he was in the plans.

Exactly! +1.  Why is there an over-abundance of people WANTING a rebuild?? Starting a rebuilding process is admitting defeat/failure in more ways than just one.  I for one don't want the team to suck for the next 3-5 years.  I don't want to be Edmonton or Buffalo.  I totally agree with the Lou Lams philosophy of "No we are not in a rebuilding process, we are simply making some transitions."  Which is true.  Losing star players and having trouble replacing them with reliable goal-scorers is what I would call some rough transitions.


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#42 mouse

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 12:17 PM

Exactly! +1.  Why is there an over-abundance of people WANTING a rebuild?? Starting a rebuilding process is admitting defeat/failure in more ways than just one.  I for one don't want the team to suck for the next 3-5 years.  I don't want to be Edmonton or Buffalo.  I totally agree with the Lou Lams philosophy of "No we are not in a rebuilding process, we are simply making some transitions."  Which is true.  Losing star players and having trouble replacing them with reliable goal-scorers is what I would call some rough transitions.

I don't want to rebuild, per se, but IMO you need to start making decisions for the future rather than the present, which to me includes getting guys like Larsson time in the NHL rather than burying them in the AHL. I could see sending Gelly down, because there are specific flaws in his game he needs to fix, but Larsson just needs to get better playing elite talent, and that's not going to happen in the AHL. IMO, Larsson is better than Sal, and probably Volch. Even if I'm wrong, Larsson needs to be in games over them.


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#43 RizzMB30

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 12:47 PM

I don't want to rebuild, per se, but IMO you need to start making decisions for the future rather than the present, which to me includes getting guys like Larsson time in the NHL rather than burying them in the AHL. I could see sending Gelly down, because there are specific flaws in his game he needs to fix, but Larsson just needs to get better playing elite talent, and that's not going to happen in the AHL. IMO, Larsson is better than Sal, and probably Volch. Even if I'm wrong, Larsson needs to be in games over them.

Agreed,  and I think that Larsson was receiving a pretty good amount of ice time while hear in the bigs so I don't believe the argument, "Larsson is getting to play top minutes in the A." I trust Lou when he said that Larsson needed to rebuild his confidence in the minors.  Larsson is still a very young defenseman and I've noticed he can be prone to mistakes, as many young guys are.  The issues is that Salvador played his way into being the favorite veteran defenseman on the team in the 2012 playoffs and was rewarded with a 3mil cap hit contract and the captaincy.  I don't think that it is easy for management(I.E. Lou and DeBoer) to push him out of favor now.  Salvador and Volch can be just as mistake prone.  I also believe that Larsson is in the minors simply due to being one of the easier players to move between rosters in a logjammed d-corps, as he is still on 2-way contract.  I believe in Andy Greene way way way more as a leader of this defensive corps and DeBoer and Lou disagree as Salvador remains and is unable to play his way out of favor.  I feel that most on this board would agree when the 2012 playoffs was the last time that Salvador's play warranted such favor from the higher ups.


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#44 cgb6397

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 09:03 PM

If Stevens would instill fear as a Head Coach, why wouldn't he do it as an Assistant? His presence is still there, he's still behind the bench. I don't really see your reasoning there.


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#45 dmann422

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 08:03 AM

No no no. Yo are not getting it. I have been saying that DeBoer gets a pass and shouldn't be fired because Ryder can't score. I have said Pete should not be fired at all.  I don't even know who you are addressing. I didn't even say that Pete "hasn't helped this team more than he's hurt it." You are changing the argument, with all due respect. I simply said that Pete's system has not had us scoring more than we otherwise would have because it couldn't really have been much worse.

fair enough and apologies then, but I'm not sure who was confused. I'm arguing that we don't have a roster that can compete with most playoff teams on pure offensive talent. We're also old and slow. I never said Pete helped this team offensively, I simply argued that Pete has done a good job of finding wins despite our scoring struggles and hasn't held us back like some in this thread seem to believe.
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#46 redruM

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 08:37 AM

 

Lou not making a move is perhaps a tacit admission he knows this team is **** even though he'll never admit it.  I really do wonder how Lou can let things happen like Larsson languishing in the minors though...that's even worse than the coaching bs.  Larsson and Gelinas were terrific together in November, the team won five of six.  And now Gelinas is in and out of the doghouse while Larsson's stuck in Albany for the rest of the season cause we keep stockpiling slow, mediocre defensemen.

 
While I donot love some of the things PDB does, this falls in LL IMHO, the Larsson thing has me so pissed off I cannot put my true feleing in writing! If you were Larsson would you ever sign longterm w/ a team that burries you in the AHL when you are better then 4 or 5 of the D men with th big club?? makes no sense to me!!

LL will always be an Icon w/ Devils fans, but this game has clearly passed him by, the lack of speed on this team has really caught up, game after game i watch wingers fly up and down the ice as Devil players struggle to keep up.

Are there any can't miss prospects in Albany>???
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#47 Daniel

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 09:49 AM

 
 
While I donot love some of the things PDB does, this falls in LL IMHO, the Larsson thing has me so pissed off I cannot put my true feleing in writing! If you were Larsson would you ever sign longterm w/ a team that burries you in the AHL when you are better then 4 or 5 of the D men with th big club?? makes no sense to me!!

LL will always be an Icon w/ Devils fans, but this game has clearly passed him by, the lack of speed on this team has really caught up, game after game i watch wingers fly up and down the ice as Devil players struggle to keep up.

Are there any can't miss prospects in Albany>???

 

Larsson will not leave the Devils out of spite.  The Devils control his NHL rights for the next four years I believe.  Even at an NHL minimum, he'll be making more money here than in Sweden, and I don't see a KHL team offering him a ton of money, and that assumes he has any interest in playing in Russia.  And if he really felt spited, he would have demanded a trade like Nino Niedereitter did.  If he played every game this year, the ultimate results in the standings, and other measureables like goals/shots against/for would not be significantly different one way or the other, except, perhaps if he were replacing someone like Salvador or Volchenkov, but, it's an unrealistic expectation anyway.

 

Where it might matter is stunting his development.  None of us really knows whether that's the case one way or the other.  However, what it could very well do is mess up the timing on a long term deal such that he'll end up going to unrestricted free agency at the earliest possible time, and when he's quite young.  Of course, the new CBA gives the Devils a big advantage in retaining him, so if he turns out to be the elite defenseman that people hope that he'll be, he'll either be traded for a very good return, or re-signed.

 

Of course, it might be the case that our expectations were too high in the first place, and that he'll be a good, but not great player, like Karl Alzner, who was a fifth overall pick.  This is probably the most likely scenario.  Despite popular misconceptions, DeBoer does not have some animus against younger players.  If he did, Merrill would be a regular scratch, and Henrique would not been playing with Parise and Kovalchuk in his rookie season.  Lou also would not want Larsson languishing in the AHL for Merrill, Gelinas or perhaps even Fayne, if Larsson were really a much better alternative.  The fact is, is that right now, he probably isn't. 


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#48 Steadevils

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 10:08 AM

For all the talk of calling up Larsson, at this point I'd rather have Larsson getting a deep run of AHL playoff experience (let's go A-Devs!) than a 16 game NHL run that is setting up to be pretty depressing. Especially if confidence is his main issue.


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#49 LucifersDog

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 11:14 AM

All things negative lately point to Lou.


Does Lou have too much power today? Is Lou too old to admit he has made some recent mistakes? Should the future season be intrusted to Lou?

IMO Lou should retire for the betterment of the NJ Devil's future.

Edited by LucifersDog, 17 March 2014 - 11:16 AM.

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#50 Devilsfan118

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 11:20 AM

I think a lot of you guys are kinda delusional regarding the success this team has had over the past two decades - you just can't do it like the Devils have anymore.  This "retooling" thing is great when you have a core to "tool" around - the Devils don't have much a young core to speak of, at least offensively.

 

A rebuilding period is inevitable - I'd rather get it out of the way now than later.  What's worse - a couple rough years, or this continuous bubble team bullsh!t?

 

And we're not talking about an Oilers or Sabres rebuild - they're two of the poorest run sports franchises I can think of.  If you have faith in Lou and Conte, you've got to think a couple higher picks (again, not necessarily #1 overall, but better than 20-30) would help tremendously in the next future years.


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#51 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 11:34 AM

DF118, some teams start rebuilding and suddenly the rebuild takes 5+ years.  All it takes for that to happen is a few high picks in a row not working out, a key player or two getting hurt...we've seen highly-touted upper draft picks become busts.  Not saying that the Devils couldn't turn it around more quickly than that, and that all rebuilding plans fall apart, but I also think (not you necessarily, just a generalization) that some fans assume that 2-3 of suffering will automatically pay dividends.   

 

I think the only way Lou would ever go into full-rebuild mode would be a 2010-11 first half-style crash and burn that lasts through the trade deadline, with no hope in sight.   


Edited by Colorado Rockies 1976, 17 March 2014 - 11:35 AM.

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#52 Daniel

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 11:34 AM

I think a lot of you guys are kinda delusional regarding the success this team has had over the past two decades - you just can't do it like the Devils have anymore.  This "retooling" thing is great when you have a core to "tool" around - the Devils don't have much a young core to speak of, at least offensively.

 

A rebuilding period is inevitable - I'd rather get it out of the way now than later.  What's worse - a couple rough years, or this continuous bubble team bullsh!t?

 

And we're not talking about an Oilers or Sabres rebuild - they're two of the poorest run sports franchises I can think of.  If you have faith in Lou and Conte, you've got to think a couple higher picks (again, not necessarily #1 overall, but better than 20-30) would help tremendously in the next future years.

 

You have to be more specific instead of resorting to buzz terms like rebuild, retool, "blow it up."  Right now, assuming Schneider is re-signed, the goaltending is set for the foreseeable future, and the defense we have in place now would be what you were rebuilding with anyway.  That alone puts us at least in playoff contention on a year-in-year-out basis.  Forward is the issue, but you don't necessarily need to be drafting in the top ten or top five every year to get a group of very good forwards.  An example would be St. Louis.  None of their forwards were top ten picks, and none are big UFA signings.   

 

EDIT:  Paajarvi was an Edmonton top ten pick.  But he wasn't obtained for that much, and he wasn't obtained by virtue of St. Louis tanking.  So the basic point still stands. 


Edited by Daniel, 17 March 2014 - 11:36 AM.

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#53 SterioDesign

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 11:51 AM

it's a bit like Detroit, Ken Holland is quite possibly the best GM in the league and ran that franchise flawlessly BUT he got lucky with Datsyuk and Zetterberg, he had no clue they'd turn out this good and without them there's no way they would have been so steady after Yzerman and all those guys we're gone. I mean they had Lidstrom of course but still.

 

as for our defensive corp and goaltending... Look at Nashville few years ago, they were super set on D and in net, yet... where did that bring them really? 

 

Also where did Calgary go, holding on to iginla and Kipper for so long eventhough it was clear the team we're not going anywhere and refusing to rebuild, at some point they've hit a wall and it was too late and they lost top guys for pretty much nothing. Of course no one wanted to see them traded or wtv but its a business at the end of the day and thats what they should have done way sooner. It's one thing to be in win now mentality but it can hurt you long term big time if things don't go your way.


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#54 Daniel

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 11:59 AM

 

 

as for our defensive corp and goaltending... Look at Nashville few years ago, they were super set on D and in net, yet... where did that bring them really? 

 

Also where did Calgary go, holding on to iginla and Kipper for so long eventhough it was clear the team we're not going anywhere and refusing to rebuild, at some point they've hit a wall and it was too late and they lost top guys for pretty much nothing. Of course no one wanted to see them traded or wtv but its a business at the end of the day and thats what they should have done way sooner. It's one thing to be in win now mentality but it can hurt you long term big time if things don't go your way.

 

Nashville lost Suter for nothing.  The new CBA makes it unlikely that that scenario repeats itself for reasons that have been brought up numerous times.  Before that, you could generally pencil them in to win at least one round in the playoffs, which is the sign of a very good team.  And if Seth Jones is what people think he should be, Nashville will be back to where they were in the next year or so. 

 

There's also very little chance that Calgary would be all that much better if they sold higher on Iginla, or got something for Kipprosoff. 


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#55 Triumph

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 12:05 PM

The problem with 'blowing it up' is that if you want to ensure that you are truly bad, you really have to cut your team off at the knees.  It means getting rid of a lot of good players.  And it means anyone else who's still there probably will want to leave at the earliest opportunity.  Then it means bringing in young players who while talented can't quite play NHL hockey at the level it needs to be played at.  Now you've gotten rid of your good players so the youngsters are surrounded by not much of quality.  It's a cycle and it's really hard to get out of - just ask the Panthers, who've basically been in that cycle for 15 years now.

 

Yeah, I also see some contradictions here - if Calgary sold Iginla and Kiprusoff at the height of their value, they might be an okay team now.  But what then?  They don't have a ton of good prospects - they've got Gaudreau and some okay ones besides.  Where were they going even if they did that?  Teams don't trade Doug Weight for Esa Tikkanen anymore - those days are over.  Good young players are just too valuable to deal even for an Iginla, and if you don't have them or the possibility of them, you're not likely to be a very good team now or in the future.


Edited by Triumph, 17 March 2014 - 12:07 PM.

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#56 Neb00rs

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 12:33 PM

The team has essentially been rebuilt, just over the course of 10 years. The only difference between getting rid of everybody at once and getting rid of players one by one over a long period of time is that with the former you will really suck and get a top draft pick or two. That has worked for teams like the Pens but Crosbys are once in a decade type players and as Triumph pointed out, a full rebuild can mire a team in lowliness for an eternity. The Panthers took years to build a team; they had numerous top 5 picks in the draft. Eventually they made the playoffs, and now they suck again. 

 

Meanwhile the Devils have been an average to above average team for the last 10 years (making the playoffs 8 out of 10 years) and even got ourselves to the Stanley Cup final. Which would you rather?

 

I think for some, the idea of a 'rebuild' is exciting. But it isn't so great once you're in the middle of it. Rebuilds are an especially bad route to take for borderline playoff teams who just need a few pieces, like the Devils.


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#57 DJ Eco

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 01:22 PM

I think a lot of you guys are kinda delusional regarding the success this team has had over the past two decades - you just can't do it like the Devils have anymore.  This "retooling" thing is great when you have a core to "tool" around - the Devils don't have much a young core to speak of, at least offensively.

 

A rebuilding period is inevitable - I'd rather get it out of the way now than later.  What's worse - a couple rough years, or this continuous bubble team bullsh!t?

 

And we're not talking about an Oilers or Sabres rebuild - they're two of the poorest run sports franchises I can think of.  If you have faith in Lou and Conte, you've got to think a couple higher picks (again, not necessarily #1 overall, but better than 20-30) would help tremendously in the next future years.

 

Admitting defeat and going into rebuild mode would pretty much be saying that Lou and Conte have royally F'd up for the past 10 years. If that's the case, do you have faith that they'll make better decisions through a rebuild?

 

Who's to say they won't just draft more Tedenbys, Cormiers, Correntes, and Bergforses over the span of the next 4-5 years? A rebuild would probably entail dealing Schneider and/or Greene too, and for what? It'd all be in pursuit of possibly messing up our draft selections some more. Law of averages says you probably won't draft the next Crosby or Kovalchuk, but you will probably have a bunch of 10,000 attendance seasons (if you're lucky). Worth it?


Edited by DJ Eco, 17 March 2014 - 01:24 PM.

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#58 SterioDesign

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 01:57 PM

I mean we can give credits to Lou for the way he built the team long time ago in a different NHL and every different eras kind of overlapped each other... But the gradual rebuilt of the team was never bad cause some guys we're leaving but our core was always intact and still a solid lineup and we we're always a contender so it's easier to convince guys to play for you and to buy into the team than now or a hit doesnt strike you as bad cause you're still solid. Lou has been dealing with this team in win now mode not looking further than the actual season and it's really a new territory for him and he has to learn that even though it's cute that you're all about loyalty and all and go all out, in the situation the team is/was, he had to deal with things quite differently and he didnt. Thats why we're where we are now.


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#59 sundstrom

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 01:58 PM

Admitting defeat and going into rebuild mode would pretty much be saying that Lou and Conte have royally F'd up for the past 10 years. If that's the case, do you have faith that they'll make better decisions through a rebuild?

 

Who's to say they won't just draft more Tedenbys, Cormiers, Correntes, and Bergforses over the span of the next 4-5 years? A rebuild would probably entail dealing Schneider and/or Greene too, and for what? It'd all be in pursuit of possibly messing up our draft selections some more. Law of averages says you probably won't draft the next Crosby or Kovalchuk, but you will probably have a bunch of 10,000 attendance seasons (if you're lucky). Worth it?

 

two of those brought Kovalchuk. not every prospect you draft is done with the intention that they make the NHL for you. having high draft picks and lots of them (even after they are drafted) still holds plenty of value.


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#60 dmann422

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 02:26 PM

I mean we can give credits to Lou for the way he built the team long time ago in a different NHL and every different eras kind of overlapped each other... But the gradual rebuilt of the team was never bad cause some guys we're leaving but our core was always intact and still a solid lineup and we we're always a contender so it's easier to convince guys to play for you and to buy into the team than now or a hit doesnt strike you as bad cause you're still solid. Lou has been dealing with this team in win now mode not looking further than the actual season and it's really a new territory for him and he has to learn that even though it's cute that you're all about loyalty and all and go all out, in the situation the team is/was, he had to deal with things quite differently and he didnt. Thats why we're where we are now.

just wondering where you think "we are now"? I mean I know literally we're just on the fringe of the playoff race but I'm assuming you mean in the near future as well? For instance let's say that there are very few changes this offseason- we cut ties with some of the older defensemen, sign Cory to an extension and re-sign jägr. Do you think we're in a bad position?

I guess what I'm getting at is I'm still confident that this team can compete for a playoff spot next year without having to make major changes (unless you count firmly installing Cory as the starter "major"). Sure if you want to compare our youth to the sabres or oilers and project 3-5 years down the line we don't look so great, but in reality no gm can look that far ahead and a lot can and will change before then.
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