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This has to be the most frustrating season I've seen as a fan


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#41 redruM

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 07:58 AM

Every season they donot make the playoffs is painful to me... '96 was brutal! The lack of effort in that final game was so painful to watch.

But this year is realy bad too. I think the frustrating part for me is that its seems this team has no legs left, which translates into a lack of effort... Forget the shoot outs, how many games have we blown leads, and not just 1 goal leads, 2 goal leads late in the 2nd or begining of the third. I just think this team has gotten tired, and that frustrates me becuase I think it happend last yeart as well, and in the off season we got older instead of younger...
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#42 NJDfan1711

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 08:21 AM

The assertion was that he is worn out.  If he was worn out, we should see that appear on other ways than on the goals and assists sheet, because goals and assists are random events buried within shots on goal and passes and so forth.  Since it doesn't look like Jagr's game is out of sorts at all other than that the puck isn't going in the net, I don't see any rationale for calling him worn out.

I hate to break this to you, but you rely way too heavily on stats and indicators to determine who is "worn out".  Goals and assists are not merely "random events buried within shots on goal and passes".   I don't know if you've ever played hockey before, be it for fun or in a competitive league (my guess is no otherwise you probably wouldn't make a statement like that), but to score a goal in hockey, particularly at the NHL level, requires a high degree of individual skill.  Sure it's a team game and there are situations where a fluke bounce or favorable break occurs that results in a goal, which is usually when you see "goons" or 4th line grind players score here and there, but for the most part it's a calculated effort and you have to have the ability to pick corners on a goalie, blast a shot by him, or what have you.  I think all NHLers would feel insulted seeing you minimize their efforts for scoring goals and tallying assists.  When it happens, usually it's not a 'random act'.

 

Jagr was our best player for 50 or even 75% of the season because he is arguably the most skilled.  His productivity has definitely slowed and it is without a doubt because he is in fact worn out.  He's 42 years old and an 82 game season is taxing on him.  He went lights out and set the pace quickly by leading us in almost all stat categories, and as admirable as his work ethic and performance has been, he can't keep it going forever and the steam is fading. It's not a knock on him at all, it's just reality.


Edited by NJDfan1711, 31 March 2014 - 08:23 AM.

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#43 Daniel

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 08:44 AM

I hate to break this to you, but you rely way too heavily on stats and indicators to determine who is "worn out".  Goals and assists are not merely "random events buried within shots on goal and passes".   I don't know if you've ever played hockey before, be it for fun or in a competitive league (my guess is no otherwise you probably wouldn't make a statement like that), but to score a goal in hockey, particularly at the NHL level, requires a high degree of individual skill.  Sure it's a team game and there are situations where a fluke bounce or favorable break occurs that results in a goal, which is usually when you see "goons" or 4th line grind players score here and there, but for the most part it's a calculated effort and you have to have the ability to pick corners on a goalie, blast a shot by him, or what have you.  I think all NHLers would feel insulted seeing you minimize their efforts for scoring goals and tallying assists.  When it happens, usually it's not a 'random act'.

 

Jagr was our best player for 50 or even 75% of the season because he is arguably the most skilled.  His productivity has definitely slowed and it is without a doubt because he is in fact worn out.  He's 42 years old and an 82 game season is taxing on him.  He went lights out and set the pace quickly by leading us in almost all stat categories, and as admirable as his work ethic and performance has been, he can't keep it going forever and the steam is fading. It's not a knock on him at all, it's just reality.

 

As someone who has more or less come over to that way of thinking the best way I can explain it is that, except for a few very special players like Stamkos and Crosby, or a few very bad ones, most forwards have very similar shooting percentages over time.  So much of the skill comes in just getting a shot on goal, or some people would say, close enough to the goal.  Despite those morons in the stands that reflexively yell "shoot", enough of the time, a shot on goal is more than simply throwing the puck at the net and hoping for a tip or a funny bounce, or a throw away shot towards the net from beyond the blue line.  And "randomness" is not just a funny bounce or a softy.  It's the other team's goalie playing well at the right time, and making unbelievable saves, or at least more of them.  It can also be the shooter guessing wrong on where to place an otherwise open shot, or a bunch of other things. 

 

I guess you could say there are some gray areas, and it's possible that someone that's as old as Jagr will start missing something from his shot as the season progresses.  But the same way people look for a every possible explanation to show that the numbers aren't the end all be all, other people have to expect criticism about relying mostly on what they see.


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#44 devilsrule33

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 09:08 AM

I hate to break this to you, but you rely way too heavily on stats and indicators to determine who is "worn out".  Goals and assists are not merely "random events buried within shots on goal and passes".   I don't know if you've ever played hockey before, be it for fun or in a competitive league (my guess is no otherwise you probably wouldn't make a statement like that), but to score a goal in hockey, particularly at the NHL level, requires a high degree of individual skill.  Sure it's a team game and there are situations where a fluke bounce or favorable break occurs that results in a goal, which is usually when you see "goons" or 4th line grind players score here and there, but for the most part it's a calculated effort and you have to have the ability to pick corners on a goalie, blast a shot by him, or what have you.  I think all NHLers would feel insulted seeing you minimize their efforts for scoring goals and tallying assists.  When it happens, usually it's not a 'random act'.

 

Jagr was our best player for 50 or even 75% of the season because he is arguably the most skilled.  His productivity has definitely slowed and it is without a doubt because he is in fact worn out.  He's 42 years old and an 82 game season is taxing on him.  He went lights out and set the pace quickly by leading us in almost all stat categories, and as admirable as his work ethic and performance has been, he can't keep it going forever and the steam is fading. It's not a knock on him at all, it's just reality.

 

Can't agree with much here.

 

Jagr has been fine lately. The Islanders TV crew was talking about asking Deboer if Jagr was worn out, and he responded by saying that "we just finished 4 in 6 nights, and in the 4th game, Jagr was our best weapon." And it is true. He had 6 shots on goal against Toronto in that game.

 

Last 5 games SOG: 6,4,6,4,5

 

Plenty of good passing plays as well. He's been fine.


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#45 RizzMB30

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 09:16 AM

Jagr is fine, the idea that he is worn out is ridiculous.  The fact that he is still consistently our best player each night is what the problem is.  Other players need to play to that level as well.  Jagr may be 42, but he keeps himself is ridiculously good shape throughout the season and the offseason.  Many people point to his last season in Boston where he didn't do much in the playoffs and to the SCF, but why can't the great Jaromir Jagr have a cold-streak, even if it's at the completely worst possible time?

Look up some of Jagr's training videos and see how hard he works to stay in shape.  Yeah, his speed & acceleration might start to lack towards the end of the season, but again, its hard to say that when he is consistently the best player we ice on the nightly basis.


Edited by RizzMB30, 31 March 2014 - 09:22 AM.

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#46 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 09:27 AM

NJDFan1711, if you start looking at points strictly in a vacuum, you're going to miss a lot of nuances.  It's possible to have a terrific game (or games) with multiple solid scoring chances where the goalie comes up huge, and come away with no points.  It's also possible to have a one-goal, two-assist game where the goalie flubbed an often easy save, and the two assists were secondaries where the player really didn't do much other than touch the puck at the right time.  There is definitely a degree of randomess to offensive numbers.  I agree with dr33...Jagr has been fine, just not getting puck luck at the moment.   


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#47 Steven M.

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 09:47 AM

I don't want to speak on msweet's behalf but I believe he did not intend to start a debate on how much gas Jagr has left in the tank, but to say that one of the only good things about this team's season was having the privilege to watch Jagr in a Devils jersey but even that novelty has worn off. Maybe I interpreted it wrong, but I don't think he meant that Jagr is done.

I can't wait for this season to be over because I'm completely sick of the NJ.com circle of idiots begging Marty for comments about where he will be next season and him reciprocating while we are in the middle of desperation time. I simply don't care where he will be next year... as long as it isn't here, and I NEVER thought I would think that way. Incredibly disappointed in him.
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#48 mfitz804

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 10:06 AM

I think Jagr is fine. When someone questioned him in the beginning of the year, he pointed out that last year, he played the most games he had ever played between the season, playoffs, Europe, etc...over 100 games. 

 

He's old but simply put (and the Islanders' announcers even referred to it during the last game), the dude is a freak of nature. It happens. I feel like he could play next year and beyond that. 

 

I also agree that it has been an absolute pleasure watching him this year. I always knew he was a great player but to be able to watch him over 70+ games was very nice. And he still amazes me, he has some of the best hands I have ever seen, he hardly ever loses the puck, hardly misses the net, all around probably the best overall player the Devils have ever had, albeit not during the prime nor most productive part of his career. 


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#49 roomtemp

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 10:11 AM

Also Adam Henrique has had a sneaky good year this year as well scoring goals and making stuff happen for himself


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#50 NJDfan1711

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 10:22 AM

NJDFan1711, if you start looking at points strictly in a vacuum, you're going to miss a lot of nuances.  It's possible to have a terrific game (or games) with multiple solid scoring chances where the goalie comes up huge, and come away with no points.  It's also possible to have a one-goal, two-assist game where the goalie flubbed an often easy save, and the two assists were secondaries where the player really didn't do much other than touch the puck at the right time.  There is definitely a degree of randomess to offensive numbers.  I agree with dr33...Jagr has been fine, just not getting puck luck at the moment.   

I'm not looking at points in a vacuum. I definitely understand that there are many intangibles so-to-speak that don't show up in the box score after a game and a player can still have an excellent night without scoring or getting an assist, but to discredit the guys who score 30-40+ goals a year or get 50-60+ assists and suggest they they're only better than 3rd or 4th line guys simply because of a good bounce here or there and "puck luck" is both naïve and unfounded.  The guys you speak of that get a goal and two assists on a given night are usually exactly what I referred to -- a fluke bounce here or there, a tip-in, deflection, or an opposing goalie maybe making a rare mistake.  That's not how Jagr amassed 700 goal though.  Again, taking nothing away from him, he's had an amazing year and we couldn't ask for more, especially considering his age, but it's starting to show a little bit now that the season is wrapping up.

 

I respect everyone's opinion and I'm not here to change your mind, however nothing here has convinced me otherwise that an 82 game season isn't taking it's toll on our 42 yr old superstar.  In fact, someone else just supported the cause for me in the quote that Jagr apparently said himself... "we just finished 4 in 6" -- what more proof do you need than coming from the horse's mouth himself?  He might as well have said "I am worn out" lol.  If he was still in his 20s, or hell, even his early to mid 30s maybe that doesn't effect him as much, but at his age, you can clearly see he's exhausted. 


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#51 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 10:35 AM

I'm not saying that it's all good bounces and puck luck, or discrediting anyone.  I'm saying I don't think Jagr's 5-game, one-assist run is based on him being spent.  Like Tri pointed out, he's still getting shots, and he's still making plays.  They're just not resulting in points at the moment. 


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Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.
Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime?
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It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

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#52 devlman

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 10:43 AM

This season has really annoyed me for the handling of our young players (a recurring theme, it seems). Josefson never gets a chance to play with skilled players on a consistent basis. Merrill got way too much ice time, Gelinas has been tossed around like Matt Corente, and Larsson is in Albany! Matteau or Boucher playing up here more wouldve made things more fun watching them develop. Hopefully next year they will be ready and we can get rid of the older dead weight.


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#53 95Crash

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 10:44 AM

Forgot to mention the 2001-02 team.  They went from 295 GF and being one of the most entertaining teams in the NHL to 205 GF and often maddening to watch...they also managed to get the coach who had led them to consecutive SC Finals canned.  They won 14 out of their final 18 GP that season under Kevin Constantine, but even then they seemed to question his style at every turn (Brodeur sure did in his book)...I don't know what that team's problem was, but they seemed to act as though they were above having to listen to anyone.  I went to the playoff game where Carolina eliminated them (a 1-0 loss for the Devils), and five minutes into the game I told my then-future wife "They're getting shut out tonight.  They have nothing."  She told me to be optimistic, but they had no life whatsoever...it would've been one thing if the Devils had been playing hard but was extremely unlucky, or Carolina was playing incredibly well, but it just felt like they weren't into it at all, and couldn't wait to get off the ice.  They were pretty heartily booed during the last minute of play and after the game.    

 

I was at that game too. You're right, the team obviously didn't have it, but I was disappointed that there were so many boos as the game ended.


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#54 devlman

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 10:45 AM

At least in the early '90's there was the feeling that something serious was building. The feeling in the late '80's was similar, but plateaued for a bit, too those early '90's.

 

Now?  With the exception of those young D, there is nothing exciting to look forward to.

 

Time for Lou to go.


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#55 Triumph

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 11:00 AM

I'm not looking at points in a vacuum. I definitely understand that there are many intangibles so-to-speak that don't show up in the box score after a game and a player can still have an excellent night without scoring or getting an assist, but to discredit the guys who score 30-40+ goals a year or get 50-60+ assists and suggest they they're only better than 3rd or 4th line guys simply because of a good bounce here or there and "puck luck" is both naïve and unfounded.  The guys you speak of that get a goal and two assists on a given night are usually exactly what I referred to -- a fluke bounce here or there, a tip-in, deflection, or an opposing goalie maybe making a rare mistake.  That's not how Jagr amassed 700 goal though.  Again, taking nothing away from him, he's had an amazing year and we couldn't ask for more, especially considering his age, but it's starting to show a little bit now that the season is wrapping up.

 

I respect everyone's opinion and I'm not here to change your mind, however nothing here has convinced me otherwise that an 82 game season isn't taking it's toll on our 42 yr old superstar.  In fact, someone else just supported the cause for me in the quote that Jagr apparently said himself... "we just finished 4 in 6" -- what more proof do you need than coming from the horse's mouth himself?  He might as well have said "I am worn out" lol.  If he was still in his 20s, or hell, even his early to mid 30s maybe that doesn't effect him as much, but at his age, you can clearly see he's exhausted. 

 

No one said that that was how 1st line players get goals.  Scoring an NHL goal takes a lot of skill but there's also a lot of 'luck' because you are going up against NHL defenses and NHL goalies intent on stopping you.  Look at Henrique's goal from Saturday - it was a skilled play, but it comes off a fluky puck bounce.  A lot of NHL goals start that way.  A lot of NHL goals go in off skates and sticks and arms and legs.  That's why shots on goal are so important - you never know which shots are going to go in, but in general, the more pucks you put on the net, the more likely you are to score.  Obviously there are limitations to this - firing from everywhere isn't really a recipe for success - but generally offenses which have more shots have more goals.

 

You are putting the cart before the horse when you say that Jagr is slowing down - what evidence is there of that, other than that he is 42 years old?  If he were 28, would you say he's slowing down?  Of course not.  So we look at other things that happen on the ice other than goals and assists - is Jagr getting shots on goal, is his line spending time in the offensive zone?  The answer to both things is emphatically yes.  So again, show me the evidence that Jagr is slowing down.  


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#56 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 11:01 AM

I was at that game too. You're right, the team obviously didn't have it, but I was disappointed that there were so many boos as the game ended.

 

I think that was the culmination of team falling so far from the previous season...I think with the A-line having the kind of season they did in 2001, everyone (even announcers) kept saying things like "for the next decade" when it came to them.  And the depth that year was insane...of course, you also had three guys put up terrific years from a goal-scoring standpoint:  McKay, Brylin, and Madden all put in 23 each.  I remember one game where friggin' Pierre Dagenais and Jiri Bicek were called up and they both scored to give the Devils a 2-1 win at some point during the season.  And then they go 19-2-0 to finish out the 2000-01 regular season...I think the fall from the previous year was a lot to take.  I also think a lot of people were doubting at the time whether trading Arnott was the right move...and worried about losing Holik...so I think a lot of fans were unsure and nervous about what the future was going to bring.  Just a lot of negative emotions that were exacerbated by a lifeless 1-0 loss.


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[Mark Messier]: A big, bald attention whore with a stupid Easter Island-lookin face. - from who else? DaneykoIsGod!

Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.
Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime?
- Most priceless quote ever posted on a message board.

Martin Brodeur: THE MOST ALL-TIME WINS!, 12 straight seasons of 30+ wins, 3 Stanley Cups, 4 Vezina Trophies, and zero respect from too many so-called Devils "fans" who are either too young or too bandwagon to remember the much darker days of Sean Burke, Craig Billington, Bob Sauve, Alain Chevrier, and the talented but overwhelmed Chico Resch, among many others.

It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

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20 out of 1,946 njdevs.com members agree: CR1976 is the Most Knowledgable Poster of 2008! Victory is mine...oh yes, victory is mine!

#57 skeeter

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 11:16 AM

I'd be frustrated if I cared about this collection of zilches. 


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#58 Neb00rs

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 11:16 AM

I'm not saying that it's all good bounces and puck luck, or discrediting anyone.  I'm saying I don't think Jagr's 5-game, one-assist run is based on him being spent.  Like Tri pointed out, he's still getting shots, and he's still making plays.  They're just not resulting in points at the moment. 

 

It's still a tenuous argument to claim that Jagr is "keeping this team afloat."


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#59 msweet

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 12:31 PM

I can't buy any of this MSweet for a few reasons:

 

There have been so many boring Devils teams to watch. CR1976 named a few of them. There just haven't been many times in the team's history since Lou came where they've missed the playoffs. So you add that with them not having a real dynamic player, and sure it sucks.

 

Jagr has not worn out. There have been a lot of games he has scored a sh!t goal, and we marvel, but he's had a plethora of chances over the last few games.

 

As for emotionless coaching...I hate that. Deboer gets angry, but as I have said a few times here, what good comes from a freak out  in front of the media where you are calling out players by name. That's a real good way of getting a team to quit on you. He might be giving it to them in the locker room, but he is smart enough to turn it off in front of the media. There's been very few no show games by the team this year. Maybe that's when you go crazy, but he's smart enough to know that results doesn't mean a lack of effort. You can't scream about lack of finish.

 

 

I won't argue each point since this is about MY OPINION that this team is the most painful to watch for me.

 

Jagr's luck has changed because he is wearing.. that is usually the first sign.. pucks stop going in.. he's not getting to the spots where you get those goals anymore.

 

A mediocre team without a superstar is going to be boring...period. We don't even have Marty being amazing anymore to steal a game in spectacular fashion.

 

And DeBoer doesn't inspire his players, especially the younger players and that is what I meant.


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#60 NJDfan1711

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 12:46 PM

No one said that that was how 1st line players get goals.  Scoring an NHL goal takes a lot of skill but there's also a lot of 'luck' because you are going up against NHL defenses and NHL goalies intent on stopping you.  Look at Henrique's goal from Saturday - it was a skilled play, but it comes off a fluky puck bounce.  A lot of NHL goals start that way.  A lot of NHL goals go in off skates and sticks and arms and legs.  That's why shots on goal are so important - you never know which shots are going to go in, but in general, the more pucks you put on the net, the more likely you are to score.  Obviously there are limitations to this - firing from everywhere isn't really a recipe for success - but generally offenses which have more shots have more goals.

 

You are putting the cart before the horse when you say that Jagr is slowing down - what evidence is there of that, other than that he is 42 years old?  If he were 28, would you say he's slowing down?  Of course not.  So we look at other things that happen on the ice other than goals and assists - is Jagr getting shots on goal, is his line spending time in the offensive zone?  The answer to both things is emphatically yes.  So again, show me the evidence that Jagr is slowing down.  

I wouldn't exactly call Henrique's goal fluky.  It wasn't your typical sniper wrist shot that picks a corner, or a Stamkos-type down-on-one-knee blast, but it took a lot of SKILL to be able to recognize that the goalie was confused and then sneak and tuck the puck just around the post.  Granted Jagr was never the fastest player to begin with, but I can't help but feel like you're proving my point here because had Jagr not be "worn out", then maybe he makes that type of play because it takes speed and quickness to do so (a half second slower and Henqirue is stuffed by the left pad).  That's just it though, he ISN'T making those plays anymore, at least not for the past half dozen games.  Is he attempting them?  Maybe, which could be evidenced by the fact that you're saying he is still producing lots of shots, but the point is that he's no longer executing at the moment.  

 

That's how I can show you he's worn out.


Edited by NJDfan1711, 31 March 2014 - 12:48 PM.

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