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This has to be the most frustrating season I've seen as a fan


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#61 Triumph

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 03:13 PM

I wouldn't exactly call Henrique's goal fluky.  It wasn't your typical sniper wrist shot that picks a corner, or a Stamkos-type down-on-one-knee blast, but it took a lot of SKILL to be able to recognize that the goalie was confused and then sneak and tuck the puck just around the post.  Granted Jagr was never the fastest player to begin with, but I can't help but feel like you're proving my point here because had Jagr not be "worn out", then maybe he makes that type of play because it takes speed and quickness to do so (a half second slower and Henqirue is stuffed by the left pad).  That's just it though, he ISN'T making those plays anymore, at least not for the past half dozen games.  Is he attempting them?  Maybe, which could be evidenced by the fact that you're saying he is still producing lots of shots, but the point is that he's no longer executing at the moment.  

 

That's how I can show you he's worn out.

 

You're not really reading what I'm saying.  The only reason the puck got to Henrique is because the defenseman kicked it to him inadvertently - most of the time, even when the D kicks it, it doesn't go right on to Henrique's tape.  So what Henrique did from there required lots of skill, but he's rarely getting that chance.

 

Again, if a 29 year old player were getting 4+ shots a game and not scoring, you would not say he is tired.  You are arguing that he is worn out from his age and that's all.  Scoring in the NHL is very streaky - even the best players can go a long time without a goal.


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#62 NJDfan1711

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 03:57 PM

 

Again, if a 29 year old player were getting 4+ shots a game and not scoring, you would not say he is tired.  You are arguing that he is worn out from his age and that's all.  Scoring in the NHL is very streaky - even the best players can go a long time without a goal.

Well first of all... no kidding!  That's the whole point.  Comparing Jagr to a 29yr old is not fair because that's the essence of what we're talking about here.  Jagr IS 42 years old. It's only natural that he get worn out after 60-some games!   Secondly, I'm not arguing based solely on his age, I'm arguing on his age, the point we're at in the season, and his lack of productivity as this given time.

 

Beyond that, it's not even necessarily true to say we wouldn't be saying the same about that 29yr old.  If that 29yr old player were like Jagr and used to racking up lots of goals and assists, then goes dry for a half dozen games, particularly at the end of the season, I think it's reasonable to speculate that he's "worn out", if not for age, then just endurance and energy in general (some guys are built for marathons and long seasons, other guys are great in spurts and short stints)

 

Anyway, I think we've debated enough.  I respect your opinion and I guess we'll see in the next few weeks if Jags gets out of this, slump, we'll call it :)


Edited by NJDfan1711, 31 March 2014 - 03:57 PM.

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#63 NJDfan1711

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 06:59 PM

I think he heard us :)


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#64 Onddeck

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 08:46 PM

Absolutely beautiful. Never quit on that goal. And two absolutely perfect passes to set that up. What a play.

Good for zajac
Oops wrong thread
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#65 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 06:43 AM

Well first of all... no kidding!  That's the whole point.  Comparing Jagr to a 29yr old is not fair because that's the essence of what we're talking about here.  Jagr IS 42 years old. It's only natural that he get worn out after 60-some games!   Secondly, I'm not arguing based solely on his age, I'm arguing on his age, the point we're at in the season, and his lack of productivity as this given time.

 

Beyond that, it's not even necessarily true to say we wouldn't be saying the same about that 29yr old.  If that 29yr old player were like Jagr and used to racking up lots of goals and assists, then goes dry for a half dozen games, particularly at the end of the season, I think it's reasonable to speculate that he's "worn out", if not for age, then just endurance and energy in general (some guys are built for marathons and long seasons, other guys are great in spurts and short stints)

 

Anyway, I think we've debated enough.  I respect your opinion and I guess we'll see in the next few weeks if Jags gets out of this, slump, we'll call it :)

 

Wanna retract any of this? 

 

I'm guessing if Jagr had put up 4 points or so in his last 5 before last night, you probably wouldn't have said anything about him being worn out.  Again, the dangers of just looking at points and making assumptions based on them alone. 


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#66 NJDfan1711

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 07:36 AM

Wanna retract any of this? 

 

I'm guessing if Jagr had put up 4 points or so in his last 5 before last night, you probably wouldn't have said anything about him being worn out.  Again, the dangers of just looking at points and making assumptions based on them alone. 

No, of course not.  He certainly looked rejuvenated last night and was playing his ass off, but I stand by what I said earlier -- he looked flat the previous half dozen games, which translated onto the scoresheet.


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#67 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 07:42 AM

No, of course not.  He certainly looked rejuvenated last night and was playing his ass off, but I stand by what I said earlier -- he looked flat the previous half dozen games, which translated onto the scoresheet.

 

But if he went pointless last night, would you be saying he looked rejuvenated?  You'd probably be saying that he only has one point in his last 6 games.  I just don't see where he's looked flat lately.  Agree to disagree I guess, but I think you're basing your observations mostly on point production. 


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THE NHL MUST LOVE THE DEVILS - from who else? A RANGER fan!
[Mark Messier]: A big, bald attention whore with a stupid Easter Island-lookin face. - from who else? DaneykoIsGod!

Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.
Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime?
- Most priceless quote ever posted on a message board.

Martin Brodeur: THE MOST ALL-TIME WINS!, 12 straight seasons of 30+ wins, 3 Stanley Cups, 4 Vezina Trophies, and zero respect from too many so-called Devils "fans" who are either too young or too bandwagon to remember the much darker days of Sean Burke, Craig Billington, Bob Sauve, Alain Chevrier, and the talented but overwhelmed Chico Resch, among many others.

It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

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20 out of 1,946 njdevs.com members agree: CR1976 is the Most Knowledgable Poster of 2008! Victory is mine...oh yes, victory is mine!

#68 NJDfan1711

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 08:53 AM

But if he went pointless last night, would you be saying he looked rejuvenated?  You'd probably be saying that he only has one point in his last 6 games.  I just don't see where he's looked flat lately.  Agree to disagree I guess, but I think you're basing your observations mostly on point production. 

Stats are definitely part of it for sure, but I also try to pay close attention to how players seem on the ice, regardless of whether or not they happen to be scoring, or even if they have the puck for that matter.  I look at the way guys are skating, where they position themselves in relation to the play, and so forth.  I'm not gonna toot my own horn or anything, but I've played hockey for pretty much as long as I've watched it (about 25 years), so I feel I am a pretty good judge of when guys appear tired and gassed, demotivated, because I've been there myself.


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#69 SterioDesign

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 09:02 AM

Stats are definitely part of it for sure, but I also try to pay close attention to how players seem on the ice, regardless of whether or not they happen to be scoring, or even if they have the puck for that matter.  I look at the way guys are skating, where they position themselves in relation to the play, and so forth.  I'm not gonna toot my own horn or anything, but I've played hockey for pretty much as long as I've watched it (about 25 years), so I feel I am a pretty good judge of when guys appear tired and gassed, demotivated, because I've been there myself.

 

This. I think a lot of people who use stats a lot as their main argument to back up their points never really played the game. You can never just look at one thing, you have to look at the stats and the play on the ice. Really often guys can be kind of Johnny on the spot and get points without a lot of effort while other times you can play a crazy game but you simply miss the net or buddy who passed it too is not scoring or a huge save or defensive play or god knows.

 

Its like some people here will never ever get that


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#70 Neb00rs

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 11:13 AM

Jagr's game last night demostrates sufficiently that he is not worn out. No argument there. He was damn dangerous.


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#71 msweet

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 11:18 AM

Jagr's game last night demostrates sufficiently that he is not worn out. No argument there. He was damn dangerous.

 

I hope not.. but I was at the game at ice level and let me tell you Florida had little interest in playing defense against the Jagr-Zajac line. It was obvious from the drop of the puck,

 

Jagr is great and was a great pick up no doubt, but I can see he's picking his spots now.Let's see how he does against the better teams... fortunately we don't have that many of them left.


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#72 Neb00rs

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 11:39 AM

I hope not.. but I was at the game at ice level and let me tell you Florida had little interest in playing defense against the Jagr-Zajac line. It was obvious from the drop of the puck,

 

Jagr is great and was a great pick up no doubt, but I can see he's picking his spots now.Let's see how he does against the better teams... fortunately we don't have that many of them left.

 

Of course, let's not pretend like it wasn't some anomaly that Zajac decided NOT to miss the net by 10 feet on every shot he took last night.


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#73 Triumph

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 11:58 AM

Stats are definitely part of it for sure, but I also try to pay close attention to how players seem on the ice, regardless of whether or not they happen to be scoring, or even if they have the puck for that matter.  I look at the way guys are skating, where they position themselves in relation to the play, and so forth.  I'm not gonna toot my own horn or anything, but I've played hockey for pretty much as long as I've watched it (about 25 years), so I feel I am a pretty good judge of when guys appear tired and gassed, demotivated, because I've been there myself.

 

Jaromir Jagr does not play the same game as you, I don't care how long you've played it.  Although he may make circular arguments like you - that's one thing you might have in common.

 

What you're doing here is exhibiting confirmation bias - you know Jagr's old, and so you're looking for signs that he's fatigued.  Now you're making excuses for why he looked so good last night.


Edited by Triumph, 01 April 2014 - 12:03 PM.

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#74 NLinfante

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 12:52 PM

Within a small sample size, scoring does not define a player as "good", just like not scoring doesn't define a player as "bad". I realize that we're talking about someone looking "tired", but it's really the same argument. I haven't seen much out of Jagr (even when not scoring) that leads me to believe he's worn down or tired. Outside of an injury, coaching staffs regularly look at the whole body of work, not who's hot and who's not.

 

I'll give you an example of when small sample size becomes a problem. I coached a game this winter, we were up by 1 with less than 2:00 left in the 3rd. One of my F's took a penalty. My top two penalty killers are not great hockey players, but they are supposed to understand their role, move their feet, and clear the puck on the PK. One F creates a turnover inside our blueline and chips the puck out. He regains the puck and streaks down the ice 1 v 2 rather than dumping and changing. The D-man on his side of the ice trips while pivoting and my F shoots and scores from the circle, a pretty nice SHG....except that his decisions leading up to the goal were terrible and, in the long run, he would give up far more to the PP than he would be helping the PK. We won the game and he returned to the bench quite proud of himself. I was rather disappointed with his play, regardless of the fact that he scored.

 

As a coach who relies on the "eye-test" quite a bit, I caution you to think that because Jagr wasn't scoring or picking up assists that his play had dropped off.


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#75 Devilsfan118

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 12:59 PM

Clearly, Jagr saw this thread before last night's game and had to prove he's not worn out.

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#76 SterioDesign

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 01:34 PM

Of course, let's not pretend like it wasn't some anomaly that Zajac decided NOT to miss the net by 10 feet on every shot he took last night.

 

Well to be honest he missed a bunch of chances lol he could have scored 6 last night easily lol


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#77 roomtemp

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 11:47 PM

I need to find a girlfriend because I shouldn't be this distraught over this team.


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#78 '7'

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 11:48 PM

I need to find a girlfriend because I shouldn't be this distraught over this team.

 

then you'd be pulling your hair out over two things instead of 1


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#79 Devils Pride 26

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 12:16 AM

then you'd be pulling your hair out over two things instead of 1

Ain't it the truth hahaha
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#80 maxpower

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 12:31 AM

I don't see how people can be slagging what Jagr's doing, whether it's just writing him off as being "old" or "tired" or whatever.   Without him, this team is an utter joke.   He shouldn't have had to be nearly what he was this season.   That's how much of a mess the organization is right now.   Whatever the guy says in his exit interview, they should listen very closely.

 

IMO the staff needs to be cleaned out.   If you want a place at the table for Barr, that's fine, but I'm not sure where he fits in.    IMO the office needs to be cleaned out too, but I'm a realist there.   There's no threats in the organization and there hasn't been one since Sutter skipped town.    Marty?   He'd have to be pretty PO'd to shank Lou and even then, I'm pretty sure that isn't better.


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