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#141 Triumph

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 08:40 AM

Enough with the "Devils are going to miss the playoffs because of Brodeur" horsesh!t." It is the most myopic and delusional thing I have ever seen written on this board. I'm sure if the Devils had Sydney Crosby we would have made the playoffs too, or if the team chose better sticks. The team will miss the playoffs because they didn't succeed as a team. They repeatedly failed to score goals and lost 11 shootouts, winning none.

 

Marty didn't play that bad against Florida, but that wasn't the issue. Both goaltenders were playing with pretty similar numbers over the past month or so - as soon as Debo got the chance, he went back to Cory. Cory has played 10 more games this season than he ever has before. There is a complete logic to to the scheduling of the goaltenders, to deny that is ludicrous - like Pete actually reached into a hat every night. It has been clear to me this whole season. Ya'll just want to be incredulous when Marty is announced as the starter.

 

There is no consistent logic.  There's a half logic but absolutely no consistent logic.  There is no reason why Brodeur started against Winnipeg.  There's no real reason why he started against the Islanders in March.  The only reasons for a lot of Brodeur's starts are 'We for some reason think he is as good as Cory Schneider'.


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#142 '7'

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 08:52 AM

Phoenix on 1/18 burns me up too. Schneider stops 37 of 38 vs Colorado and Brodeur is starting in the Phoenix the next game and it's 2-0 Coyotes before you even get in your chair.


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#143 SMantzas

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 08:59 AM

Haha yeah, the difference between a .920 goalie and a .900 one is probably something between 6-8 points.  Devils are comfortably in the playoffs if Schneider starts 60 games. I can think of several games Brodeur blew and this is only off the top of my head

 

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Outdoor game

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#144 Devils731

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 10:06 AM

It's definitely not one guy to blame, but the Devils were more likely to gain a point or 2 on their record if Schneider had played more.
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#145 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 10:20 AM

It's definitely not one guy to blame, but the Devils were more likely to gain a point or 2 on their record if Schneider had played more.

 

You can probably argue 3 or possibly even 4, but nothing more than that...and of course, if the Devils had been able to put home more than three friggin' shootout goals (and had won just 4 or 5 shootouts), we're not focusing as much on Marty not being good anymore.  But yeah, he's one of several reasons why the Devils are on the outside looking in. 


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Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.
Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime?
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#146 Neb00rs

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 11:13 AM

There is no consistent logic.  There's a half logic but absolutely no consistent logic.  There is no reason why Brodeur started against Winnipeg.  There's no real reason why he started against the Islanders in March.  The only reasons for a lot of Brodeur's starts are 'We for some reason think he is as good as Cory Schneider'.

 

This is at least the legitimate part of your argument. Though, I don't see this at all. To me it was "Well, Cory is better but he isn't playing that well so let's play Marty." I will concede that in the beginning of the season it was probably "Cory isn't the starter yet, one of them has to win the job."


You can probably argue 3 or possibly even 4, but nothing more than that...and of course, if the Devils had been able to put home more than three friggin' shootout goals (and had won just 4 or 5 shootouts), we're not focusing as much on Marty not being good anymore.  But yeah, he's one of several reasons why the Devils are on the outside looking in. 

 

Totally agree with this. We may have less points for starting Marty, but there are many reasons why we have less points. That was the point of my last post. In the end, while Marty has a bad save percentage, the defense has made up for that by preventing shots. Thus, the Devils have allowed relatively few goals this season. If the team played better as a whole, notably in the goal-scoring dept., we would be a playoff team.


Edited by Neb00rs, 07 April 2014 - 11:16 AM.

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#147 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 12:48 PM

This is at least the legitimate part of your argument. Though, I don't see this at all. To me it was "Well, Cory is better but he isn't playing that well so let's play Marty." I will concede that in the beginning of the season it was probably "Cory isn't the starter yet, one of them has to win the job."

 

Totally agree with this. We may have less points for starting Marty, but there are many reasons why we have less points. That was the point of my last post. In the end, while Marty has a bad save percentage, the defense has made up for that by preventing shots. Thus, the Devils have allowed relatively few goals this season. If the team played better as a whole, notably in the goal-scoring dept., we would be a playoff team.

 

I definitely want to make clear that I think Marty absolutely got too many games, and unfortunately that was because the situation became more and more Messier-like as the season went on, in a lot of ways:

 

1) Marty probably had a little too much power all-around...that being said, you only ever get that kind of power if you're very, very good for a long, long time.  So it all goes back to the same thing:  If someone told you that you could have a guy play for your team for roughly two decades and that he'd help you win multiple championships and set several records (some for being terrific and some for being ridiculously durable), but you'd have to deal with a couple of rough years at the end and a not-so-graceful exit, would you take it?  Of course you would. 

 

2) PDB probably knows deep down that Schneider is better than Brodeur, but just like Marty's teammates who have to cover for him and act like his overall performance isn't what it is, PDB's gotta lie through his teeth and make it sound like Marty's still terrific.  I'm not saying Marty's teammates should ever come out and say "Marty sucked tonight and cost us a win", even when it's true, but at the same time, when they're all saying things akin to Marty still being Marty and how they have two great goalies...we know that they can't possibly feel that way.  I think PDB said what he did about save% not meaning anything to him mostly to ward off questions about the obvious before they can even be asked or repeated.  PDB is not an idiot...of course he knows the guy stopping two to three percent more shots is the better puck-stopper.  But the only way not to trample on a legend who's used to playing a lot is to play him less without being "insulting" about it...which means a guy who probably should've only started 30 games (tops) somehow gets 37...which means he's getting games along the way that he shouldn't get...and round and round we go.   

 

3) You have to deal with more quotes in the media than you ever really wanted to hear, some of which are just honesty, and some of which come off very badly.  Players are people too...it would surprise if me some of Marty's teammates were thinking "Geez, will you just shut up already."  That kind of plays into #2, in that no one will dare say how they REALLY feel, both out of respect for Marty and his career, and for not wanting to come off badly.  No one is going to call Marty out on anything.       


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THE NHL MUST LOVE THE DEVILS - from who else? A RANGER fan!
[Mark Messier]: A big, bald attention whore with a stupid Easter Island-lookin face. - from who else? DaneykoIsGod!

Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.
Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime?
- Most priceless quote ever posted on a message board.

Martin Brodeur: THE MOST ALL-TIME WINS!, 12 straight seasons of 30+ wins, 3 Stanley Cups, 4 Vezina Trophies, and zero respect from too many so-called Devils "fans" who are either too young or too bandwagon to remember the much darker days of Sean Burke, Craig Billington, Bob Sauve, Alain Chevrier, and the talented but overwhelmed Chico Resch, among many others.

It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

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20 out of 1,946 njdevs.com members agree: CR1976 is the Most Knowledgable Poster of 2008! Victory is mine...oh yes, victory is mine!

#148 NJDfan1711

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 12:57 PM

Haha yeah, the difference between a .920 goalie and a .900 one is probably something between 6-8 points.  Devils are comfortably in the playoffs if Schneider starts 60 games. I can think of several games Brodeur blew and this is only off the top of my head

 

@EDM

2 CBJ games

@ Ottawa in the beginning of the year

Outdoor game

@PHX

I can't recall those other games specifically, but I guess you watched a different outdoor game than the rest of us because 3 and actually probably 4 were definitely not his fault in that game.  Virtually every time the Rags had the puck it was an odd-man-rush into our zone.  If you think otherwise, well, then, that says a lot.


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#149 Devils731

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 04:08 PM

I can't recall those other games specifically, but I guess you watched a different outdoor game than the rest of us because 3 and actually probably 4 were definitely not his fault in that game.  Virtually every time the Rags had the puck it was an odd-man-rush into our zone.  If you think otherwise, well, then, that says a lot.

 

I think that's part of the problem, not saying it's your in particular, but some Devils fans have become very comfortable with their goalie rarely making an outstanding save, when most NHL goalies routinely make outstanding saves.  An NHL goalie needs to make every regular save and a few saves that are unbelievable to have a really good NHL game.  A goalie that is just making the regular saves and missing most of the really hard ones is a little below average.  The goalie that is missing some of the regular saves and missing most of the really hard ones is very below average.


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Your unconditional rejection of violence makes you smugly think of yourselves as noble, as enlightened, but in reality it is nothing less than abject moral capitulation to evil. Unconditional rejection of self-defense, because you think its a supposed surrender to violence, leaves you no resort but begging for mercy or offering appeasement.

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#150 Neb00rs

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 04:39 PM

I definitely want to make clear that I think Marty absolutely got too many games, and unfortunately that was because the situation became more and more Messier-like as the season went on, in a lot of ways:

 

1) Marty probably had a little too much power all-around...that being said, you only ever get that kind of power if you're very, very good for a long, long time.  So it all goes back to the same thing:  If someone told you that you could have a guy play for your team for roughly two decades and that he'd help you win multiple championships and set several records (some for being terrific and some for being ridiculously durable), but you'd have to deal with a couple of rough years at the end and a not-so-graceful exit, would you take it?  Of course you would. 

 

2) PDB probably knows deep down that Schneider is better than Brodeur, but just like Marty's teammates who have to cover for him and act like his overall performance isn't what it is, PDB's gotta lie through his teeth and make it sound like Marty's still terrific.  I'm not saying Marty's teammates should ever come out and say "Marty sucked tonight and cost us a win", even when it's true, but at the same time, when they're all saying things akin to Marty still being Marty and how they have two great goalies...we know that they can't possibly feel that way.  I think PDB said what he did about save% not meaning anything to him mostly to ward off questions about the obvious before they can even be asked or repeated.  PDB is not an idiot...of course he knows the guy stopping two to three percent more shots is the better puck-stopper.  But the only way not to trample on a legend who's used to playing a lot is to play him less without being "insulting" about it...which means a guy who probably should've only started 30 games (tops) somehow gets 37...which means he's getting games along the way that he shouldn't get...and round and round we go.   

 

3) You have to deal with more quotes in the media than you ever really wanted to hear, some of which are just honesty, and some of which come off very badly.  Players are people too...it would surprise if me some of Marty's teammates were thinking "Geez, will you just shut up already."  That kind of plays into #2, in that no one will dare say how they REALLY feel, both out of respect for Marty and his career, and for not wanting to come off badly.  No one is going to call Marty out on anything.       

 

Why does it matter if the players/coach have to 'lie through their teeth'? The point is that the amount of games Marty played was just not that devastating and not really a big deal. sh!tty or not, when Marty played the team still had a good GAA (even if Marty himself sucked) and did enough defensively to make the playoffs. The issue is not in arguing whether Marty has power around here or whether Cory should have started more games, it is that Marty has become the scapegoat for some posters this season with very little reasoning behind it. I mean, you take Marty off this team and we are just a fvckin' juggernaut no?


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#151 Sneax

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 04:56 PM

We are currently 3 points behind the blue jackets.

Marty literally threw away a win we had against them, that's a 4 point swing and our spot in the playoffs. If we had half way decent goal tending that game we win.


That's just one direct example of how Marty being in net has directly impacted our playoff chances.


That as far as I'm concerned can go in the realm of Marty playing to many games. He's not our best option in net, and consistently playing him when we are sitting a better goalie has a negative impact on our team. Sorry you don't have the brain capacity to comprehend that. Does the shoot out thing play a part in our situation? Sure, but we can't make the team not suck at the skills competition, we could however have played the far superior goalie more than 50/50 with a sh!tty aged version of broduer.

Everyone's perception of this team would be different if we were in a playoff spot, we will likely end the season a win or 2 behind. Wins we would have with Cory in net. People wouldn't be down on that team if that was the story.

Edited by Sneax, 07 April 2014 - 04:57 PM.

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#152 Triumph

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 05:03 PM

Why does it matter if the players/coach have to 'lie through their teeth'? The point is that the amount of games Marty played was just not that devastating and not really a big deal. sh!tty or not, when Marty played the team still had a good GAA (even if Marty himself sucked) and did enough defensively to make the playoffs. The issue is not in arguing whether Marty has power around here or whether Cory should have started more games, it is that Marty has become the scapegoat for some posters this season with very little reasoning behind it. I mean, you take Marty off this team and we are just a fvckin' juggernaut no?

 

It is a huge deal.  Brodeur is bad and GAA is a terrible stat.  There is reasoning because literally all Coach Deboer has to do is write a different name and the team gets better.  That was it.  Write down a different name 10 times and NJ is probably in the playoffs this year.  Is it a great team?  No, but it's a team that can go somewhere maybe if they get some shooting luck, because they have an elite goalie.  One that they paid a 9th overall pick for and then sat on the bench for half the year.


Edited by Triumph, 07 April 2014 - 05:08 PM.

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#153 Daniel

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 05:27 PM

It is a huge deal. Brodeur is bad and GAA is a terrible stat. There is reasoning because literally all Coach Deboer has to do is write a different name and the team gets better. That was it. Write down a different name 10 times and NJ is probably in the playoffs this year. Is it a great team? No, but it's a team that can go somewhere maybe if they get some shooting luck, because they have an elite goalie. One that they paid a 9th overall pick for and then sat on the bench for half the year.


That Cory is an elite goalie, or pretty close to it, is the key. If the other goalie were someone like Bryzgolav, probably still better than Marty, but nothing special, then the conversation would be a bit different.

That said, stinks it'll probably cost us a playoff spot, but it's one we'd probably get destroyed in anyway, if you want to rationalize it. sh!t happens though.

All signs point to Marty not being on the team next year. I fully expect Schneider to get a nice extension, or a very good return in a trade. If Lou pleasantly surprises us this offseason, the franchise should be in pretty decent shape for a while.


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#154 Neb00rs

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 07:06 PM

It is a huge deal.  Brodeur is bad and GAA is a terrible stat.  There is reasoning because literally all Coach Deboer has to do is write a different name and the team gets better.  That was it.  Write down a different name 10 times and NJ is probably in the playoffs this year.  Is it a great team?  No, but it's a team that can go somewhere maybe if they get some shooting luck, because they have an elite goalie.  One that they paid a 9th overall pick for and then sat on the bench for half the year.

 

This is a much better point. However, it just doesn't change the fact that the Devils did enough defensively to be in the playoffs. I have never had a problem with people saying that Marty is one of the reasons we won't make the playoffs this year, I have a problem with people stating Marty is the reason. If the Devils take a different shot 10 times, then they perhaps win 5 shootouts and are in the playoffs. If the Devils were just in the top 20 in the league in scoring they would perhaps be in the playoffs. It goes on and on, and blaming Marty is just not a worthy thing to do when the team was not good enough.


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#155 Chimaira_Devil_#9

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 03:14 AM

But guyz!  The easy schedule wasn't gonna help us!11111!11!!1!!!!!111!  4-0-3 in our last 7.  11 points out of a possible 14.

 

Hows that easy schedule looking now after last nights loss?

 

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#156 Marshall

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 03:16 AM

This is a much better point. However, it just doesn't change the fact that the Devils did enough defensively to be in the playoffs. 

 

Yeah, but when you've got one goalie who gives up half a goal more per game than the other...


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#157 2ELIAS6

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 08:04 AM

Hows that easy schedule looking now after last nights loss?
 
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