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In a Season of Problems, Brodeur was the Biggest


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#41 NJDfan1711

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 01:38 PM

I just knew this post was coming.

 

Yeah it has nothing to do with getting shutout ten times, not being able to score a goal in 9 of 11 shootouts, Ryder scoring one goal in three months yet still being third on the team in goals while a 42 year old is our leading scorer or Cory dropping the ball just about every time they tried to give it to him to run with.

This.

 

I also love how no one said a fvcking peep on the goal that Cory let up last night, when virtually the same thing, except 10x harder happened a week or so again to Brodeur during the game when he was pulled.  I'm talking about that 3rd goal -- a similar slapshot from a similar place on the ice (in the slot area near the top of the faceoff circles).  The difference with the one on Brodeur was that there was a player standing right in his grill, AND the puck was deflected between his legs.  Cory's was a one-timer which albeit is hard to stop and it was definitely a fast shot, but he did have a clear look at it and also no deflection, just a straight b-line to the net.  It blew by him, and we lost 1-0.   The funny thing is, the Flames got perfect goaltending from a journeyman career "backup" in Ramo.  We, from our supposed future-star and world-class goalie, got "near-perfect" goaltending, but it wasn't good enough to win.  Now, you have to put a lot of that on the team in front for forcing your goalie to be perfect and not being able to score one damn goal, but that was an all too familiar trend for nearly 10-15 fvcking years with Brodeur in net, and many, many, MANY times in that decade+ he was asked to be perfect and we enjoyed 3 cups and dozens of years of consecutive post-season appearances because he was.  Again, it sucks to put your goalie in that spot, but the truly great ones step up to the plate and are able to "steal" games as the cliché goes, and unfortunately Schneider was unable to do that this year.  I'm not saying he isn't our goalie of the future, but I am saying the season was not Brodeur's fault, and Cory, despite how much emphasis people want to put on Sv %, was not leaps and bounds better.  There are a million reasons why, most of which have been discussed ad nauseam here, and it's not worth mentioning anymore.  Those here who want to keep debating it and shouting from the rooftops are in denial and only fooling themselves.  Enough with these stupid threads that are wasting time and just causing a pissing contest among our forumers.  Let's start talking about 2014-15 and the draft in a few months.  There's nothing left to save this season and everything else to this point is now in the mirror.

 

End.


Edited by NJDfan1711, 08 April 2014 - 01:40 PM.

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#42 devilsrule33

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 01:40 PM

Has anyone said Brodeur wasn't part of the reason? It looks like everyone is in agreement that Brodeur played terribly.

 

There's a good portion out there. This forum is pretty good, but many Devils fans look at Brodeur and Cory's record and don't think there is a much of a difference.

 

Here, Msweet is the only that didn't acknowledge it. 

 

Edit: Guy above me helped me out pretty well.


Edited by devilsrule33, 08 April 2014 - 01:41 PM.

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#43 Devil Dan 56

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 01:42 PM

There's a good portion out there. This forum is pretty good, but many Devils fans look at Brodeur and Cory's record and don't think there is a much of a difference.

 

Here, Msweet is the only that didn't acknowledge it. 

 

Oh yeah, when you start getting into Facebook groups or some other forums, it's downright looney. I've seen people suggesting trading Schneider and rolling with Marty and Kinkaid next year. Now THAT would be a special season.


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#44 NJDfan1711

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 01:46 PM

Quick question...is a "fanboy" the same thing as a "manchild?"  Just wondering...

 

Brodeur was not great this season, but he surely isn't the number 1 reason this team is going to miss the playoffs.  The fact that they can't score consistently and, as others have pointed out, have been shutout in over 12% of their games this season is the main problem here.  Should Cory have started more...sure.  I think most reasonable people would agree with that.  But too say that Marty "killed this season" and attempting to blame everything on him is ludicrous. 

Two years later, and you're still earning your signature award.  Bravo.  Most sensible post in this whole damn thread so far.


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#45 NJDfan1711

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 01:51 PM

There's a good portion out there. This forum is pretty good, but many Devils fans look at Brodeur and Cory's record and don't think there is a much of a difference.

 

Here, Msweet is the only that didn't acknowledge it. 

 

Edit: Guy above me helped me out pretty well.

As "guy above you", I'm not helping you out at all - where did I say he played amazing?  I never said he didn't play terribly, so I am definitely in agreement with most everyone else here -- the difference is that Cory didn't play amazing either, and if we had Brodeur in net for 50-60 games we're probably in the same damn spot we are now -- on the playoff bubble.  The point is that Brodeur didn't play great, but is hardly to blame for the season either, and having Schneider in net for 50, 60, or all 82 games wouldn't change a fvcking thing.


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#46 Triumph

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 01:57 PM

As "guy above you", I'm not helping you out at all - where did I say he played amazing?  I never said he didn't play terribly, so I am definitely in agreement with most everyone else here -- the difference is that Cory didn't play amazing either, and if we had Brodeur in net for 50-60 games we're probably in the same damn spot we are now -- on the playoff bubble.  The point is that Brodeur didn't play great, but is hardly to blame for the season either, and having Schneider in net for 50, 60, or all 82 games wouldn't change a fvcking thing.

 

Yes it would.  If Schneider were in the net for 82 games, the Devils would've allowed 40 fewer goals.  They'd be in the playoffs for sure.


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#47 Devilsfan118

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 01:59 PM

 

As "guy above you", I'm not helping you out at all - where did I say he played amazing?  I never said he didn't play terribly, so I am definitely in agreement with most everyone else here -- the difference is that Cory didn't play amazing either, and if we had Brodeur in net for 50-60 games we're probably in the same damn spot we are now -- on the playoff bubble.  The point is that Brodeur didn't play great, but is hardly to blame for the season either, and having Schneider in net for 50, 60, or all 82 games wouldn't change a fvcking thing.

 

 

I don't know how you can point to last night's game as an example of Cory losing a game for the Devils.

 

He can't score goals.. and the only shot that beat him was a knuckler going 100+ that somehow picked a corner.

 

Marty's been terribad.  How can you blatantly ignore SV%?  It's not some BS statistic like +/-.  Cory starting 20 more games equates to, what, at least 10 less goals against?  Which probably translates to at least a couple points.

 

This is the mentality that's so prevalent on facebook and other social media outlets...it's scary.


Edited by Devilsfan118, 08 April 2014 - 02:00 PM.

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#48 NJDfan1711

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 02:08 PM

 

 
 

 

I don't know how you can point to last night's game as an example of Cory losing a game for the Devils.

 

He can't score goals.. and the only shot that beat him was a knuckler going 100+ that somehow picked a corner.

 

Marty's been terribad.  How can you blatantly ignore SV%?  It's not some BS statistic like +/-.  Cory starting 20 more games equates to, what, at least 10 less goals against?  Which probably translates to at least a couple points.

 

This is the mentality that's so prevalent on facebook and other social media outlets...it's scary.

 

90-95% of the blame for last night's game is on the 18 guys in red who weren't skating in a small crease.  The other 5-10% is on the guy in red stopping pucks between the crease.  The only thing I am trying to convey here is that, for 15-20 years Brodeur pitched shutout after shutout on his way to breaking the all time NHL record in career regular season shutouts.  He did so in times when we needed him to win games 1-0 because he played on a defensive-minded team that couldn't score goals.  We needed Cory to win one of those for us last night.  He didn't deliver.  So the whole "the season is Brodeur's fault" stuff should just stop.  It wasn't his fault.  If you want to say he was "terribad", ok, fine.  I'll say he wasn't good.  But to suggest that if he played less games that the season would be different and we would be in the playoffs is just garbage and like I said if you or anyone else wants to think otherwise, well then you're just set in your ways I guess and there's no sense trying to show you otherwise.   Hopefully the team we have now isn't the same team that suits up in 2014-15, but you put this same team out there next year and give Cory 65 starts, the result will be the same.  I wish/hope I'm wrong, but I won't be (we probably won't see it anyway because, hopefully, the team isn't even the same anyway, but you get the point)


Edited by NJDfan1711, 08 April 2014 - 02:09 PM.

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#49 DJ Eco

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 02:18 PM

90-95% of the blame for last night's game is on the 18 guys in red who weren't skating in a small crease.  The other 5-10% is on the guy in red stopping pucks between the crease.

 

No, if the most basic fundamental principle of a team getting a win is to score more than your opponent, Schneider isn't even 1% "to blame for the loss" considering 0 goals were scored.


Edited by DJ Eco, 08 April 2014 - 02:19 PM.

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#50 DJ Eco

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 02:21 PM

I also love how no one said a fvcking peep on the goal that Cory let up last night, when virtually the same thing, except 10x harder happened a week or so again to Brodeur during the game when he was pulled.

 

No one said a peep about the goal, because it was "the goal", it was only one goal let in through 60 minutes. If Cory does any better of a job than he did last night, regulation time still ends 0-0. 


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#51 Triumph

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 02:28 PM

90-95% of the blame for last night's game is on the 18 guys in red who weren't skating in a small crease.  The other 5-10% is on the guy in red stopping pucks between the crease.  The only thing I am trying to convey here is that, for 15-20 years Brodeur pitched shutout after shutout on his way to breaking the all time NHL record in career regular season shutouts.  He did so in times when we needed him to win games 1-0 because he played on a defensive-minded team that couldn't score goals.  We needed Cory to win one of those for us last night.  He didn't deliver.  So the whole "the season is Brodeur's fault" stuff should just stop.  It wasn't his fault.  If you want to say he was "terribad", ok, fine.  I'll say he wasn't good.  But to suggest that if he played less games that the season would be different and we would be in the playoffs is just garbage and like I said if you or anyone else wants to think otherwise, well then you're just set in your ways I guess and there's no sense trying to show you otherwise.   Hopefully the team we have now isn't the same team that suits up in 2014-15, but you put this same team out there next year and give Cory 65 starts, the result will be the same.  I wish/hope I'm wrong, but I won't be (we probably won't see it anyway because, hopefully, the team isn't even the same anyway, but you get the point)

 

So basically goaltending doesn't matter.  

 

Cory Schneider has started 42 games.  In those 42 games, he has received 83 goals worth of goal support.  I defy you to find one season that Martin Brodeur received less than 2 goals a game of goal support.


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#52 devilsrule33

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 02:30 PM

90-95% of the blame for last night's game is on the 18 guys in red who weren't skating in a small crease.  The other 5-10% is on the guy in red stopping pucks between the crease.  The only thing I am trying to convey here is that, for 15-20 years Brodeur pitched shutout after shutout on his way to breaking the all time NHL record in career regular season shutouts.  He did so in times when we needed him to win games 1-0 because he played on a defensive-minded team that couldn't score goals.  We needed Cory to win one of those for us last night.  He didn't deliver.  So the whole "the season is Brodeur's fault" stuff should just stop.  It wasn't his fault.  If you want to say he was "terribad", ok, fine.  I'll say he wasn't good.  But to suggest that if he played less games that the season would be different and we would be in the playoffs is just garbage and like I said if you or anyone else wants to think otherwise, well then you're just set in your ways I guess and there's no sense trying to show you otherwise.   Hopefully the team we have now isn't the same team that suits up in 2014-15, but you put this same team out there next year and give Cory 65 starts, the result will be the same.  I wish/hope I'm wrong, but I won't be (we probably won't see it anyway because, hopefully, the team isn't even the same anyway, but you get the point)

 

Your memory is way off.

 

The Devils were never a bad scoring team when they made it far in the playoffs. In fact from 99-01, they were either 1st or 2nd in scoring. Defensive minded sure, but not a struggling offense. They were a powerhouse.

 

The Devils had a terrible offense in 06-07 and 07-08, and made the playoffs because of how good Brodeur was. Arguably his two best seasons in the NHL. And that is the point about this team. If Schneider played as many or close to as many games as Brodeur did back in 06-08, and if Brodeur played an amount of games close to the amount Clemmensen and Weekes did in those years, the Devils could very well be a playoff team.


Edited by devilsrule33, 08 April 2014 - 02:30 PM.

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#53 Devils Pride 26

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 02:39 PM

This is not a "the sole reason were not in the playoffs is Brodeur" thread. This is, the "Brodeur is the biggest of many reasons were not in the playoffs" thread.

Did anyone bother reading the first post? Two teams score *gasp* less than us but are sitting rather comfortably in playoff positions because of their goaltending. Schneider, Quick, and Harding/Bryz all have very similar numbers. The difference is who has been stopping pucks for them the other 40 games. LA has had phenomenal guys, Minnesota has been pretty good, and we've had one of the worst in the league
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#54 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 02:44 PM

90-95% of the blame for last night's game is on the 18 guys in red who weren't skating in a small crease.  The other 5-10% is on the guy in red stopping pucks between the crease.  The only thing I am trying to convey here is that, for 15-20 years Brodeur pitched shutout after shutout on his way to breaking the all time NHL record in career regular season shutouts.  He did so in times when we needed him to win games 1-0 because he played on a defensive-minded team that couldn't score goals.  We needed Cory to win one of those for us last night.  He didn't deliver.  So the whole "the season is Brodeur's fault" stuff should just stop.  It wasn't his fault.  If you want to say he was "terribad", ok, fine.  I'll say he wasn't good.  But to suggest that if he played less games that the season would be different and we would be in the playoffs is just garbage and like I said if you or anyone else wants to think otherwise, well then you're just set in your ways I guess and there's no sense trying to show you otherwise.   Hopefully the team we have now isn't the same team that suits up in 2014-15, but you put this same team out there next year and give Cory 65 starts, the result will be the same.  I wish/hope I'm wrong, but I won't be (we probably won't see it anyway because, hopefully, the team isn't even the same anyway, but you get the point)

 

The bolded is a big-time myth.  A lot of Devils teams could score a lot more than they were given credit for.  The '95 team struggled during the regular season, but found its scoring groove during the playoffs. 

 

Anyway, here's where the Devils ranked in offense in his career (EDIT:  made corrections based on dr33's feedback):

 

93-94:  2nd

95:  T13th

95-96:  25th

96-97:  16th

97-98:  9th

98-99:  2nd

99-00:  2nd

00-01:  1st

01-02:  T20th

02-03:  14th

03-04:  14th

05-06:  21st

06-07:  T24th

07-08:  26th

08-09:  15th

09-10:  T19th

10-11:  30th

11-12:  11th

 

I bolded some years because those are the seasons that I think Marty actually played some of his best hockey, outside of his three Cup-winning playoff runs (he was outstanding in all of them).  The bolded are the years where Marty truly did carry them to the playoffs...the goal differentials bear that out (they were very low for the records they were putting up)...he needed to be great a lot in those years, and he often was.  But for the most part, before 05-06, the Devils were solidly in the top half in scoring, and sometimes even Top 5.


Edited by Colorado Rockies 1976, 08 April 2014 - 04:01 PM.

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#55 Devilsfan118

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 02:52 PM

The bolded is a big-time myth.  A lot of Devils teams could score a lot more than they were given credit for.  The '95 team struggled during the regular season, but found its scoring groove during the playoffs. 

 

Anyway, here's where the Devils ranked in offense in his career:

 

93-94:  2nd

95:  T11th

95-96:  25th

96-97:  16th

97-98:  9th

98-99:  T4th

99-00:  2nd

00-01:  1st

01-02:  T20th

02-03:  13th

03-04:  13th

05-06:  T20th

06-07:  23rd

07-08:  25th

08-09:  15th

09-10:  T19th

10-11:  30th

11-12:  11th

 

Man we as fans had it good for loooooong run there.  Good offensive, stupidly sound defensively, great goaltending.  Mmm.


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#56 devilsrule33

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 03:04 PM

The bolded is a big-time myth.  A lot of Devils teams could score a lot more than they were given credit for.  The '95 team struggled during the regular season, but found its scoring groove during the playoffs. 

 

Anyway, here's where the Devils ranked in offense in his career:

 

93-94:  2nd

95:  T11th

95-96:  25th

96-97:  16th

97-98:  9th

98-99:  T4th

99-00:  2nd

00-01:  1st

01-02:  T20th

02-03:  13th

03-04:  13th

05-06:  T20th

06-07:  23rd

07-08:  25th

08-09:  15th

09-10:  T19th

10-11:  30th

11-12:  11th

 

I bolded some years because those are the seasons that I think Marty actually played some of his best hockey, outside of his three Cup-winning playoff runs (he was outstanding in all of them).  The bolded are the years where Marty truly did carry them to the playoffs...the goal differentials bear that out (they were very low for the records they were putting up)...he needed to be great a lot in those years, and he often was.  But for the most part, before 05-06, the Devils were solidly in the top half in scoring, and sometimes even Top 5.

 

Where did you get those numbers. Either your numbers are wrong or NHL.com numbers are wrong. But most years seem slightly off.


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#57 msweet

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 03:07 PM

How many times were the Devils up two goals in the 3rd this year and blew the lead? Once (in Edmonton)? Any other game? 

 

It's funny how many fans were upset about the Devils playing too passive of a 3rd period when their opponents tied the game with the net empty 3 games in a row, but you feel it was the opposite? Each group wants to blame the coach, but no one can get on the same page with the strategy in the 3rd period.

 

I think this is a perfect example of the Brodeur fanboys, and there are a ton of them out there. Saying Brodeur was not part of the reason the Devils missed the playoffs is a way bigger stretch than saying he was the reason.

 

I am not a boy, not a Brodeur fanboy and since I have mod privileges I am going to take exactly 0% personal insults, even by sideways reference before you get nixed. Please address each and everyone of my posts respectfully if you want to post here.

 

 

You are confused and reading things into my post that are not there for reasons I am unclear on. ..Just like you did with my Jagr is worn-out post (which is now seems to be turning out to be true)

 

We have given up several 2 goal leads, not only in the 3rd period. We have blown way too many 3rd period leads for a defense first team. I didn't say Marty was not at fault, but the idea of laying the blame squarely on him is silly. 

 

And people keep wondering why we score more goals for Marty. I could argue that when your goalie handles the puck as well as Marty it changes the confidence level and  offensive side of your game in many ways.

 

And then there's the extrapolating Corey's stats over Marty's games  and saying we would have given up 40 less goals. That's just theoretical nonsense.


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#58 devilsrule33

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 03:22 PM

I am not a boy, not a Brodeur fanboy and since I have mod privileges I am going to take exactly 0% personal insults, even by sideways reference before you get nixed. Please address each and everyone of my posts respectfully if you want to post here.

 

 

You are confused and reading things into my post that are not there for reasons I am unclear on. ..Just like you did with my Jagr is worn-out post (which is now seems to be turning out to be true)

 

We have given up several 2 goal leads, not only in the 3rd period. We have blown way too many 3rd period leads for a defense first team. I didn't say Marty was not at fault, but the idea of laying the blame squarely on him is silly. 

 

And people keep wondering why we score more goals for Marty. I could argue that when your goalie handles the puck as well as Marty it changes the confidence level and  offensive side of your game in many ways.

 

And then there's the extrapolating Corey's stats over Marty's games  and saying we would have given up 40 less goals. That's just theoretical nonsense.

 

Please don't threaten me with your mod privileges. I didn't insult you. I said this post reminds me of Brodeur fanboys. If you want to nix me, that be a shame, but go for it it, sir. 

 

I'll disagree again and say Jagr is not worn out or anymore worn out than any other player on the team. He's healthy. At the very least that's way more than almost half the forwards. He continues to lead the Devils in shots on goal. He was fine last night.

 

You could argue Brodeur is the reason that the Devils score more goals when Marty is in net, power to you. I'll disagree with that as well, though. Just a fluke coincidence that would would see the gap shrink if more games were played. I think Marshall had crunched some numbers, and the Devils don't have much of an advantage in offensive zone time or shots directed in nets with either goalie in net. But sure you could come up with some "theoretical nonsense" as well.


Edited by devilsrule33, 08 April 2014 - 03:28 PM.

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"The Stanley Cup has fallen from the Stars. The new millennium has its first Stanley Cup Champion, and it's the New Jersey Devils." Mike Miller calling the Devils winning the Stanley Cup.

"It goes to the captain and then there are handoffs during a skate around the ice" Mike Emrick as Scott Stevens is being presented the Stanley Cup.


#59 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 03:22 PM

Where did you get those numbers. Either your numbers are wrong or NHL.com numbers are wrong. But most years seem slightly off.

 

Went through wikipedia season-by-season and did countdown rankings while trying to work.  If you have better and more accurate rankings, by all means put them up and correct mine.  But even if mine are slightly off, the general jist is the same...the Devils weren't constantly a bottom-five team offense propped up throughout Marty's career. 


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Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.
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Martin Brodeur: THE MOST ALL-TIME WINS!, 12 straight seasons of 30+ wins, 3 Stanley Cups, 4 Vezina Trophies, and zero respect from too many so-called Devils "fans" who are either too young or too bandwagon to remember the much darker days of Sean Burke, Craig Billington, Bob Sauve, Alain Chevrier, and the talented but overwhelmed Chico Resch, among many others.

It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

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#60 Daniel

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 03:24 PM

I am not a boy, not a Brodeur fanboy and since I have mod privileges I am going to take exactly 0% personal insults, even by sideways reference before you get nixed. Please address each and everyone of my posts respectfully if you want to post here.

 

 

You are confused and reading things into my post that are not there for reasons I am unclear on. ..Just like you did with my Jagr is worn-out post (which is now seems to be turning out to be true)

 

We have given up several 2 goal leads, not only in the 3rd period. We have blown way too many 3rd period leads for a defense first team. I didn't say Marty was not at fault, but the idea of laying the blame squarely on him is silly. 

 

And people keep wondering why we score more goals for Marty. I could argue that when your goalie handles the puck as well as Marty it changes the confidence level and  offensive side of your game in many ways.

 

And then there's the extrapolating Corey's stats over Marty's games  and saying we would have given up 40 less goals. That's just theoretical nonsense.

 

I'm not a fan of the idea that you can calculate x number of wins that one goalie gets you versus another, which, so far as I can tell, is done using save percentage.   But, even if you think save percentage is not the end all-be all, it's not hard to conclude that giving the goalie that stops a much greater percentage of shots, say 60 to 65 randomly assigned games as opposed to the 48-50 he'll end up with, would have probably been good enough for a second wild card playoff berth. 

 

And to be fair to Marty, it's not purely because he's so bad.  It's that the other goalie is probably one of the best in the league no matter how you want to slice it. 


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