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In a Season of Problems, Brodeur was the Biggest


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#61 NJDevs4978

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 03:26 PM

There is no way Marty's puckhandling is a goal a game difference, or whatever the difference is in goal support between Marty and Cory per game now.  Not when it's 'never' been that kind of a split at any point in Marty's career with other goalies (Hedberg, Clemmensen, etc) that are just as suspect handling the puck as Cory.


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#62 mfitz804

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 03:40 PM

46 games decided by one goal. Sure, its all Marty's fault. Not the fact that we can't score. 


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#63 msweet

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 03:42 PM

Please don't threaten me with your mod privileges. I didn't insult you. I said this post reminds me of Brodeur fanboys. If you want to nix me, that be a shame, but go for it it, sir. 

 

 

"I think this is a perfect example of the Brodeur fanboys"

 

That is a direct reference and it is insulting. Respectful is what I am insisting on. Thanks for your cooperation.


I'm not a fan of the idea that you can calculate x number of wins that one goalie gets you versus another, which, so far as I can tell, is done using save percentage.   But, even if you think save percentage is not the end all-be all, it's not hard to conclude that giving the goalie that stops a much greater percentage of shots, say 60 to 65 randomly assigned games as opposed to the 48-50 he'll end up with, would have probably been good enough for a second wild card playoff berth. 

 

And to be fair to Marty, it's not purely because he's so bad.  It's that the other goalie is probably one of the best in the league no matter how you want to slice it. 

 

Basically this


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#64 NJDfan1711

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 03:47 PM

No, if the most basic fundamental principle of a team getting a win is to score more than your opponent, Schneider isn't even 1% "to blame for the loss" considering 0 goals were scored.

I was being facetious with the percentages, but we agree on the fundamentals.  Yet people (possibly you, but I won't put words in your mouth) don't want to apply that to Brodeur.   That's what's frustrating and annoying.   Yesterday is actually a perfect example the more I think about it... you can argue that if you put Brodeur in net last night, or any of the other games this season, that the score is 3-0 or 4-0 instead of 1-0, but the simple fact of the matter is exactly as you stated, if you don't score, you lose, plain and simple.  THAT is where the blame lies this year. 


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#65 ATLL765

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 03:52 PM

I am not a boy, not a Brodeur fanboy and since I have mod privileges I am going to take exactly 0% personal insults, even by sideways reference before you get nixed. Please address each and everyone of my posts respectfully if you want to post here.

 

 

You are confused and reading things into my post that are not there for reasons I am unclear on. ..Just like you did with my Jagr is worn-out post (which is now seems to be turning out to be true)

 

We have given up several 2 goal leads, not only in the 3rd period. We have blown way too many 3rd period leads for a defense first team. I didn't say Marty was not at fault, but the idea of laying the blame squarely on him is silly. 

 

And people keep wondering why we score more goals for Marty. I could argue that when your goalie handles the puck as well as Marty it changes the confidence level and  offensive side of your game in many ways.

 

And then there's the extrapolating Corey's stats over Marty's games  and saying we would have given up 40 less goals. That's just theoretical nonsense.

It's not theoretical nonsense. It's not exact measurements, but it's as close as you're going to get. Cory's stats show he is by FAR the better goalie. It's absolutely unequivocal that if Marty played about 20 less games, we'd be in. I'd put $1M on it if I had it. Is he the only reason we missed? No, but he's a LARGE part of it and the puck handling creating more offense is total baloney. I'd say maybe Marty helped the offense more at the start of the season, but I'd chalk that up to adjustments to Cory rather than anything Marty was doing.


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#66 NJDfan1711

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 03:57 PM

The bolded is a big-time myth.  A lot of Devils teams could score a lot more than they were given credit for.  The '95 team struggled during the regular season, but found its scoring groove during the playoffs. 

 

Anyway, here's where the Devils ranked in offense in his career:

 

93-94:  2nd

95:  T11th

95-96:  25th

96-97:  16th

97-98:  9th

98-99:  T4th

99-00:  2nd

00-01:  1st

01-02:  T20th

02-03:  13th

03-04:  13th

05-06:  T20th

06-07:  23rd

07-08:  25th

08-09:  15th

09-10:  T19th

10-11:  30th

11-12:  11th

 

I bolded some years because those are the seasons that I think Marty actually played some of his best hockey, outside of his three Cup-winning playoff runs (he was outstanding in all of them).  The bolded are the years where Marty truly did carry them to the playoffs...the goal differentials bear that out (they were very low for the records they were putting up)...he needed to be great a lot in those years, and he often was.  But for the most part, before 05-06, the Devils were solidly in the top half in scoring, and sometimes even Top 5.

Sooooo...we were only in the top 30% (I use that number to be generous, I am not saying we have to be the top 5-10% all the time) FIVE times in that 18 year stretch.  That's 27%.  So 73% of Brodeur's career he's had a poor offensive team, one that was offensively-challenged.  More often than not, those numbers are in the 20s, which is the BOTTOM 30% in scoring.  Glad you did that research.

 

Man we as fans had it good for loooooong run there.  Good offensive, stupidly sound defensively, great goaltending.  Mmm.

Definitely did, and the fact that we had sound defense and great goaltending masked the fact that we were "good" at offense for some of the years (i.e. the Cup seasons), and pretty putrid and bottom feeders most other seasons.  People shouldn't be surprised, but we've exposed.  We didn't get perfect goaltending from Cory like we did from Brodeur, and that's why we're a fringe playoff team now instead of a sure-thing.


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#67 PWW

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 04:01 PM

Anyone blaming Cory for even 1% of this team's problems this year is delusional. Marty was a big problem, especially since we can control whether or not we start him. Lack of scoring, blowing leads, and shootouts were also clearly a problem. Subtract any single one of those from the equation and we're in the playoffs. 


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#68 msweet

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 04:02 PM

Anyone blaming Cory for even 1% of this team's problems this year is delusional. Marty was a big problem, especially since we can control whether or not we start him. Lack of scoring, blowing leads, and shootouts were also clearly a problem. Subtract any single one of those from the equation and we're in the playoffs. 

exactly my point


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#69 NJDevs4978

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 04:10 PM

Went through wikipedia season-by-season and did countdown rankings while trying to work.  If you have better and more accurate rankings, by all means put them up and correct mine.  But even if mine are slightly off, the general jist is the same...the Devils weren't constantly a bottom-five team offense propped up throughout Marty's career. 

 

I used hockeydb, just went to the yearly standings and clicked GF...not sure if shootout goals are counted here though (probably are)

 

'93-94 2nd

'94-95 T-13th with four other teams

'95-96 25th (out of 26 teams)

'96-97 16th

'97-98 9th

'98-99 2nd

'99-00 2nd

'00-01 1st (wow three straight years at 1 or 2)

'01-02 T-20th (yikes what a fall)

'02-03 14th

'03-04 14th

'05-06 21st

'06-07 T-24th

'07-08 26th

'08-09 15th

'09-10 T-19th (tied with the Rangers and the Isles at 222 apiece)

'10-11 30th

'11-12 T-11th

'13 T-28th

'13-14 27th so far


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#70 devilsrule33

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 04:20 PM

exactly my point

 

Hard for me to get there because you didn't say that. You said blaming Brodeur is non-sense, and then listed the 3 things that caused the Devils to miss the playoffs. You never listed Brodeur at all. So how could anyone possibly know that you thought Brodeur was an issue.

 

No insult here, but what PWW said was not even close to exactly being your point.


Edited by devilsrule33, 08 April 2014 - 04:55 PM.

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#71 msweet

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 04:41 PM

Hahaha.  Blame Brodeur is nonense, but the inability to protect leads is on the coach, and has nothing to do with the goalie.  Well, now I've seen everything.

When did I say it has nothing to do with the goalie?


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#72 msweet

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 04:45 PM

Hard for me to get there because you didn't say that. You said blaming Brodeur is non-sense, and then listed the 3 things that caused the Devils to miss the playoffs. You never listed Brodeur at all. So how could anyone possibly know that you thought Brodeur was an issue.

 

No insult here, but what PWW said was not even close to exactly being your point.

 

Of course you could blame 5-on-5 scoring for missing the playoffs. But i

 

It was exactly my point (minus the Schneider reference). Why would I have listed Brodeur again? That is what the thread is about. It is the thread that is wrong it in its slant which infers that Marty is the main cause. I listed 3 things that come BEFORE we blame Marty. 


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#73 Devils Pride 26

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 04:52 PM

This year, the Devils have average 2.42 goals per game. Not good, 25th in the league. However, the Devils have had plenty of years where they have had low scoring teams and been successful. Minnesota and LA both average 2.39 goals per game and seem to have no trouble making the playoffs. The difference, has been goaltending.

 

 

This is from the original post and the main point of the thread. 


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#74 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 05:06 PM

Sooooo...we were only in the top 30% (I use that number to be generous, I am not saying we have to be the top 5-10% all the time) FIVE times in that 18 year stretch.  That's 27%.  So 73% of Brodeur's career he's had a poor offensive team, one that was offensively-challenged.  More often than not, those numbers are in the 20s, which is the BOTTOM 30% in scoring.  Glad you did that research.

 

Sooooo...basically because you were proven wrong about something and now don't want to admit it (your implication that Marty was constantly playing on bad offensive teams), you're lumping middle-of-the-pack offensive teams in with poor ones to try to make your (faulty) point and making sh!t up. 

 

The teams that you can rightly list as poor offensively during Brodeur's prime (I think it fully ended with the conclusion of the 2012 playoffs):

 

'95-'96, '01-'02, '05-'06, '06-'07, '07-'08, '09-'10, '10-'11.

 

The rest were middle-of-the-pack or higher.  So 11 out of 18 teams were at least average offensively, and 6 out of those 18 teams were ranked 20th or worse...which I hate to break it to you, is NOT "more often than not".  Don't make things up, especially when the numbers are right there that shows that's exactly what you're doing.


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#75 Devils Pride 26

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 05:10 PM

We have given up several 2 goal leads, not only in the 3rd period. We have blown way too many 3rd period leads for a defense first team. I didn't say Marty was not at fault, but the idea of laying the blame squarely on him is silly

 

 

Funny, cause so do I. Him playing is the biggest factor, however and I stand by that. 

 

I sat down this morning and said "I wonder what is a bigger difference, the lack of scoring, or the goaltending?" Right away, Minny and LA jump out and show it's possible to score less than us and make the playoffs. Then I looked at save percentage. No goalie in the league comes close to a save percentage as bad as Brodeur's on a playoff team. The first goalie who played a significant amount of games and his headed to the playoffs in Gustavsson and he had a .910 save percentage. 

 

Then I looked at GAA, not a perfect stat, but comparing two goalies on the same team playing in front of the same group, I'd say it tells a pretty good story. 

 

Run Brodeur's 2.52 GAA out there for a team that averages 2.42 goals for over 82 games and that is a recipe for lottery pick bad. Run Schneider's 2.00 out there for a team averaging 2.42 goals a game, that's almost certain playoffs. 


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#76 devilsrule33

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 05:15 PM

Sooooo...basically because you were proven wrong about something and now don't want to admit it (your implication that Marty was constantly playing on bad offensive teams), you're lumping middle-of-the-pack offensive teams in with poor ones to try to make your (faulty) point and making sh!t up. 

 

The teams that you can rightly list as poor offensively during Brodeur's prime (I think it fully ended with the conclusion of the 2012 playoffs):

 

'95-'96, '01-'02, '05-'06, '06-'07, '07-'08, '09-'10, '10-'11.

 

The rest were middle-of-the-pack or higher.  So 11 out of 18 teams were at least average offensively, and 6 out of those 18 teams were ranked 20th or worse...which I hate to break it to you, is NOT "more often than not".  Don't make things up, especially when the numbers are right there that shows that's exactly what you're doing.

 

And to repeat what I said since it goes with this, the 2007 and 2008 were dreadful offensive teams but featured incredible goaltending seasons from Brodeur. He carried some average teams, especially he 2008 team. That's why people think that if the Devils got the performances from Cory for more than just the games he started, there would be a great chance they'd be in. 

 

Brodeur played 77 games in 2007-2008. Maybe Cory wouldn't have been ready for 77, but 65? That's what it might have taken to get in. Cory's numbers are pretty similar to Brodeur's from that season where they finished 26th in scoring.


Edited by devilsrule33, 08 April 2014 - 05:19 PM.

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#77 NJDevs4978

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 05:19 PM

Funny, cause so do I. Him playing is the biggest factor, however and I stand by that. 

 

I sat down this morning and said "I wonder what is a bigger difference, the lack of scoring, or the goaltending?" Right away, Minny and LA jump out and show it's possible to score less than us and make the playoffs. Then I looked at save percentage. No goalie in the league comes close to a save percentage as bad as Brodeur's on a playoff team. The first goalie who played a significant amount of games and his headed to the playoffs in Gustavsson and he had a .910 save percentage. 

 

Then I looked at GAA, not a perfect stat, but comparing two goalies on the same team playing in front of the same group, I'd say it tells a pretty good story. 

 

Run Brodeur's 2.52 GAA out there for a team that averages 2.42 goals for over 82 games and that is a recipe for lottery pick bad. Run Schneider's 2.00 out there for a team averaging 2.42 goals a game, that's almost certain playoffs. 

 

You keep bringing up Minnesota and LA but to play devils' advocate (figuratively) the Kings have 96 points, the Wild have 94 and we have 86.  The Kings have eight shootout wins, the Wild have seven - without those points it'd be dead even.  Goaltending wasn't the issue in the shootout where we were sub-10% for the year (basically 3% until the last shootout).


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#78 Devils Pride 26

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 05:32 PM

And to repeat what I said since it goes with this, the 2007 and 2008 were dreadful offensive teams but featured incredible goaltending seasons from Brodeur. He carried some average teams, especially he 2008 team. That's why people think that if the Devils got the performances from Cory for more than just the games he started, there would be a great chance they'd be in. 

 

Brodeur played 77 games in 2007-2008. Maybe Cory wouldn't have been ready for 77, but 65? That's what it might have taken to get in. Cory's numbers are pretty similar to Brodeur's from that season where they finished 26th in scoring.

 

Exactly the point of the thread.

 

You keep bringing up Minnesota and LA but to play devils' advocate (figuratively) the Kings have 96 points, the Wild have 94 and we have 86.  The Kings have eight shootout wins, the Wild have seven - without those points it'd be dead even.  Goaltending wasn't the issue in the shootout where we were sub-10% for the year (basically 3% until the last shootout).

 

 

Right, the shootout was another huge problem. However, being as close as we are without winning one, if we didn't play a goalie with a save percentage of .900 37 games, I tend to believe we would have been able to do it without the shoot out.


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#79 capo

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 05:39 PM

Anyone blaming Cory for even 1% of this team's problems this year is delusional. Marty was a big problem, especially since we can control whether or not we start him. Lack of scoring, blowing leads, and shootouts were also clearly a problem. Subtract any single one of those from the equation and we're in the playoffs. 

This point really says it all.  Particularly, the part in bold.  Marty resigned himself to the backup role very early in the season and it was Deboer who said not so fast...  Lou and PDB are the reasons the Devils are where they are today.  Not Martin Brodeur.


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#80 Devils Pride 26

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 05:53 PM

This point really says it all.  Particularly, the part in bold.  Marty resigned himself to the backup role very early in the season and it was Deboer who said not so fast...  Lou and PDB are the reasons the Devils are where they are today.  Not Martin Brodeur.

I suppose you could look at it that way, but then again all Marty did was grumble about how he's not playing enough. I think Lou really handcuffed Deboer. Does he sit Marty and forever be known as the guy who chased Brodeur out of Jersey and everything that goes along with it (losing the locker room)? We saw what happens when he decides to treat Brodeur as the 1B and it isn't pretty.

 

Please Lou, let Marty walk, sign a generic back up goaltender (Bryz, Gustavsson) and be done with it.

 

Edit - Changed the title of the thread, more accurately depicting my view 


Edited by Devils Pride 26, 08 April 2014 - 06:04 PM.

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