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In a Season of Problems, Brodeur was the Biggest


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#101 Devils Pride 26

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 09:55 AM

Thank you. I've basically become a troll because the completely insane groupthink that's going on here has turned this place into almost nj.com-like cesspool levels. I'm not the blind Marty fanboy I paint myself out to be, but I'm not ignorant enough to blame him for all the team's problems. This team sucks, pure and simple. I hope wherever Marty goes next year, Jagr goes with him.

It's not groupthink, it's a .900 save % over 37 games. It's fact. No one near the playoffs is playing a goalie that bad, that many times. Meanwhile there are two teams scoring at similar rates in the playoffs.

Show me where anyone said Marty is the sole reason. There's a lot of blame to go around, I just feel he deserves the biggest part of the pie.

Edited by Devils Pride 26, 09 April 2014 - 09:56 AM.

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#102 Pepperkorn

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 10:04 AM

I can't sift through all this - but there is no denying Marty's vocalizing cost a lot in morale.  Having a legend making a total jackass of himself is not an easy thing to bear.  If it's been this tough and divisive to the fan base alone, imagine how it must be in the organization as a whole not simply the locker room. 

 

Marty is in one of those situations where you say - well what's the harm in him doing what's best for him -- following his own road?  What's wrong with the "If it feels good do it as long as you aren't hurting anyone?" philosophy.   Because the hurt being caused is totally subjective - no one has any way of quantifying how far reaching the impact on Marty's self-humiliation is. 

 

It hurts my daughter to have to choke down vegetables.  It hurts her far more to eat nothing but processed junk food.  But if it feels good do it - who's it hurting besides herself --- and her family and friends? and health care costs if she gets some disease linked to poor eating habits.  Just an analogy -- but you get the idea.  if you try to make it something else or chalk my analogy up to insane fan ramblings -- well then there is no conversation to be had.  Marty needs to  not be re-signed in NJ.  It's as simple as that.  I've gone on about Marty being like this -- he's such a fvcking selfish ego maniac.  it sucks to be so easy to say Ah but he's such a nice happy guy - and so communicative.  A character flaw is a character flaw is a character flaw.  He's got one of the biggest and people need to protect themselves against it -- or suffer these kind of consequences.  whatever....  THAT'S NOT TO SAY YOU BITCH ABOUT IT WHILE HE'S IN HIS PRIME!  I'm not just coming to see the light  :argh:  that is to say you use him for what he's worth then cut bait for lawd's sake!  Do unto others as they would do unto you  :P


Edited by Pepperkorn, 09 April 2014 - 10:11 AM.

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#103 sundstrom

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 10:10 AM

marty's interview where he named other teams blindsided his teammates. that was the straw that broke the camel's back i think.


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#104 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 10:18 AM

marty's interview where he named other teams blindsided his teammates. that was the straw that broke the camel's back i think.

 

Just wondering, because I haven't seen it anywhere (not saying it didn't happen, just that I missed it if it did)...did any of his teammates have a public WTF reaction to any of that (as much as they can without being brutally blunt)? 


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#105 '7'

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 10:20 AM

Yea I haven't seen them comment on any of Marty's quotes to be honest. He's been the one yammering...everyone else has stayed fairly quiet about his situation.

 

And it's not like they haven't played for Marty or had his back. To their credit...they have.


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#106 Daniel

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 10:34 AM

Just wondering, because I haven't seen it anywhere (not saying it didn't happen, just that I missed it if it did)...did any of his teammates have a public WTF reaction to any of that (as much as they can without being brutally blunt)?


I know what he's talking about. I wouldn't say "blindsided". "Puzzled" might be a better term.


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#107 devilsrule33

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 10:36 AM

Yea I haven't seen them comment on any of Marty's quotes to be honest. He's been the one yammering...everyone else has stayed fairly quiet about his situation.

 

And it's not like they haven't played for Marty or had his back. To their credit...they have.

 

The day anyone publicly calls out Brodeur in that locker room will be the first time it ever happened. They've been kissing his butt for a long time. I don't think you'd have any player on any team comment on comments from a player with that status. Doesn't mean they don't like it.


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#108 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 10:37 AM

It's not groupthink, it's a .900 save % over 37 games. It's fact. No one near the playoffs is playing a goalie that bad, that many times. Meanwhile there are two teams scoring at similar rates in the playoffs.

Show me where anyone said Marty is the sole reason. There's a lot of blame to go around, I just feel he deserves the biggest part of the pie.

 

I think, as far as the pure "who's most to blame argument" goes, it comes down to so many things:

 

If the Devils had just won four or five shootout games...

If Ryder hadn't just completely vanished...

If the Devils had reached the 2+ goals-for plateau in just a few more games...

 

Any one of those things happen, and Marty is off the hook to an extent, though just about everyone who watched Marty play this year knows he wasn't good for much of the season, and that the .919 guy with the 2.00 GAA gives you a better chance to win than the .900 guy with the 2.54 GAA...it's not the case every night of course, but 60 games of Cory starting sure seems like a better bet than the 42 he got.   

 

Trust me, I entirely get what you're saying, and 37 games of .900 play in 2014 can only be qualified as bad overall.  The one thing I will say about that sample is there was one terrific 10-game run in there, and a couple of shorter, decent ones.  But the overall number is .900 for a reason.   

 

I would say his play is as much to blame as anyone else, but I don't think I can place him at the very top of the "blame period"...he has company up there. 


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Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.
Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime?
- Most priceless quote ever posted on a message board.

Martin Brodeur: THE MOST ALL-TIME WINS!, 12 straight seasons of 30+ wins, 3 Stanley Cups, 4 Vezina Trophies, and zero respect from too many so-called Devils "fans" who are either too young or too bandwagon to remember the much darker days of Sean Burke, Craig Billington, Bob Sauve, Alain Chevrier, and the talented but overwhelmed Chico Resch, among many others.

It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

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#109 redruM

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 10:58 AM

This Blame-Marty is non-sense.
 
What killed us this year were (in order):
 
1. Our inability to score in shootouts. if we were 50% W, we'd be in the playoffs and this thread would not exist.
2. Our inability to score 5-5. Shut out too many times and we can't score even on backups and the other teams know it. (Blame Lou for having old scorers that can't score)
3. Our inability (blame the coach) to protect 3rd period and 2 goal leads. How many times do I have to see Zidlicy pinching down while we are up 3-1 or Jagr taking late 3rd period lazy shifts when we have the lead?


First off let me say I agree that Marty has to take some of the blame.. BUT...

MSweet is dead on!! This team is inept offensively, the shootouts are friggin embarrasing, the 5 v 5 play is nuts I've atched us dominate puck possesion behind the bnet for 2 3 minutes at a time, never get a shot, we lsle the puck the other team races down gets 2 shots and a goal in 10 seconds. we then get the puck possesion again and still no shots.. its frustrating as hell...

Way more for me to say but I donot have time to write a diatribe....
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#110 sundstrom

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 01:20 PM

Just wondering, because I haven't seen it anywhere (not saying it didn't happen, just that I missed it if it did)...did any of his teammates have a public WTF reaction to any of that (as much as they can without being brutally blunt)?


Nothing public. Players aren't that dumb.
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#111 BlueSkirt

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 01:39 PM

In 4 more days I won't need to give a crap about #30's ramblings. 

 

Like the quote from my avatar.....It's Over !


Edited by BlueSkirt, 09 April 2014 - 01:40 PM.

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#112 NJDfan1711

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 02:17 PM

I already proved my point.  I can see that there is such a thing as very good, good, average, poor, etc.  You apparently cannot.  Saying the Devils have had a poor offensive team 73% of time in the 18-year sample I pointed out is absolutely making sh!t up.  I showed conclusively that in 11 out of 18 years (61% of the time), the Devils' offense output was average or better in ranking.  Anything not top 3rd, apparently you consider that "poor", which is ridiculous, but that's you trying to shoehorn a faulty point where it doesn't work, instead of simply admitting you were mistaken in your assumptions.  I'm guessing you probably thought the Devils were bottom-10 far more than they turned out to be (because you didn't take the time to actually do the research), got shown conclusively with numbers not open to interpretation that it wasn't nearly as often as you assumed it would be, and now for some reason you can't admit that you were wrong about it.  Your problem, not mine. 

The numbers are exactly what I thought they would be.  The only time we were impressive in goal scoring was a 3 year consecutive stretch of 2nds and 1sts.  Other than that, the list is littered with high 20s finishes (a 24th, 26th, 27th, 28th, etc). At best, I repeat, BEST, there are some middle-of-the-road finishes at basically the 50% mark (two 14ths and a 15th).  At no point did we ever maintain any sort of positive consistency in scoring where we finished in even the top half of the league. Maybe that works for you because you have low standards, which is a shame, but the simple fact of the matter is outside of the 2012 cup run (11th in scoring), we've been anemic at scoring for more than a decade now.  The numbers show it, whether you want to believe it or not.  Have a nice day.


Edited by NJDfan1711, 09 April 2014 - 02:20 PM.

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#113 NJDfan1711

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 02:25 PM

Also, just for sh!ts and grins.  Here are some more stats regarding total GF production league-wide this year.  Of the top 16 teams in GF as of today, 12 of them (75%) are in the playoffs.  Two of the teams not far behind that are also in the playoffs are Detroit and Montreal at 18 and 19 respectively.     Pretty easy to see why finishing in the 20s in GF year after year yields the results it does.


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#114 Triumph

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 02:26 PM

Also, just for sh!ts and grins.  Here are some more stats regarding total GF production league-wide this year.  Of the top 16 teams in GF as of today, 12 of them (75%) are in the playoffs.  Two of the teams not far behind that are also in the playoffs are Detroit and Montreal at 18 and 19 respectively.     Pretty easy to see why finishing in the 20s in GF year after year yields the results it does.

 

That counts shootout goals.  Defense is still more important than offense.


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#115 devilsrule33

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 02:30 PM

The numbers are exactly what I thought they would be.  The only time we were impressive in goal scoring was a 3 year consecutive stretch of 2nds and 1sts.  Other than that, the list is littered with high 20s finishes (a 24th, 26th, 27th, 28th, etc).  Maybe that works for you because you have low standards, which is a shame, but the simple fact of the matter is, outside of the 2012 cup run (11th in scoring), we've been anemic.  The numbers show it, whether you want to believe it or not.  Have a nice day.

 

Here is what I think you are missing. Yes, the Devils have had trouble scoring in past seasons. Your point is actually helping explain many poster's points here. The combination of a good defensive team along with good/great goaltending can overcome awful offenses. Brodeur has shown that, and people here think Cory could have done so as well if he got the bulk of the starts like Brodeur did.

 

Instead of acknowledging Brodeur being awful this year, you went the other way and said Brodeur dealt with crappy offenses in the past, so Cory should too. Brodeur was perfect many nights, so Cory should too. But you took your argument a bit too far. Brodeur was coming off 4 straight losses and let in 3 goals on 9 shots. That was nothing close to Cory letting in an almost impossible shot to a guy skating right into a 100MPH blast with a rolling puck.

 

Maybe you look at the 2007-2008 season differently if Brodeur only got 45 starts and Kevin Weekes got 37. Maybe then you'd be saying well if Brodeur was better in this game or that game, we'd be fine. It be pretty ridiculous, no?


Edited by devilsrule33, 09 April 2014 - 02:36 PM.

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#116 Chuck the Duck

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 02:31 PM

In 4 more days I won't need to give a crap about #30's ramblings.

 

Like the quote from my avatar.....It's Over !

 

Until Lou re-signs him for another year at $3 million...at which point this Board will completely implode.  :koolaid:


Edited by Chuck the Duck, 09 April 2014 - 02:33 PM.

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#117 msweet

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 02:42 PM

Until Lou re-signs him for another year at $3 million...at which point this Board will completely implode.  :koolaid:

 

I am not betting against that.


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#118 NJDfan1711

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 02:49 PM

Here is what I think you are missing. Yes, the Devils have had trouble scoring in past seasons. Your point is actually helping explain many poster's points here. The combination of a good defensive team along with good/great goaltending can overcome awful offenses. Brodeur has shown that, and people here think Cory could have done so as well if he got the bulk of the starts like Brodeur did.

 

Instead of acknowledging Brodeur being awful this year, you went the other way and said Brodeur dealt with crappy offenses in the past, so Cory should too. Brodeur was perfect many nights, so Cory should too. But you took your argument a bit too far. Brodeur was coming off 4 straight losses and let in 3 goals on 9 shots. That was nothing close to Cory letting in an almost impossible shot to a guy skating right into a 100MPH blast with a rolling puck.

 

Maybe you look at the 2007-2008 season differently if Brodeur only got 45 starts and Kevin Weekes got 37. Maybe then you'd be saying well if Brodeur was better in this game or that game, we'd be fine. It be pretty ridiculous, no?

I agree, and I'm not dismissing the fact that he wasn't very good this year.  He wasn't.  But why is it only an "impossible shot" when Cory faces it though?  As I said before, Brodeur's was from the same spot, had a guy standing in front of him (Cory did not), AND it was deflected, which that in and of itself almost makes it impossible.   As others have said here already, Cory's numbers were better, of course, but he was given the chance to put this team on his back and try to overcome our offensive woes and get into the playoffs.  We all know how that turned out.  Maybe you think he needed more games to prove it, but there's a reason why a 41yr old Brodeur kept getting starts, and as much as people don't want to admit it, it's not because of his legacy or what the team owes him and all that other crap, it's because he was earning it and Cory failed to strip the crown from him.  When Cory struggled, DeBoer went back to the guy he knew was a Hall of Famer and possibly the best ever at the position.  It's a tall order, but that's what you get when you join a team and try to fill these shoes -- unfortunately for Schneider he's going to have to play balls to the wall and be light years better than #30, because #30 was that way to all of his peers/backups for two decades.


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#119 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 02:57 PM

The numbers are exactly what I thought they would be.  The only time we were impressive in goal scoring was a 3 year consecutive stretch of 2nds and 1sts.  Other than that, the list is littered with high 20s finishes (a 24th, 26th, 27th, 28th, etc). At best, I repeat, BEST, there are some middle-of-the-road finishes at basically the 50% mark (two 14ths and a 15th).  At no point did we ever maintain any sort of positive consistency in scoring where we finished in even the top half of the league. Maybe that works for you because you have low standards, which is a shame, but the simple fact of the matter is outside of the 2012 cup run (11th in scoring), we've been anemic at scoring for more than a decade now.  The numbers show it, whether you want to believe it or not.  Have a nice day.

 

 

'93-94 2nd EXCELLENT

'94-95 T-13th with four other teams AVERAGE

'95-96 25th (out of 26 teams) POOR

'96-97 16th AVERAGE

'97-98 9th GOOD

'98-99 2nd EXCELLENT

'99-00 2nd EXCELLENT

'00-01 1st (wow three straight years at 1 or 2) EXCELLENT

'01-02 T-20th (yikes what a fall) POOR

'02-03 14th AVERAGE

'03-04 14th AVERAGE

'05-06 21st POOR

'06-07 T-24th POOR

'07-08 26th POOR

'08-09 15th AVERAGE

'09-10 T-19th (tied with the Rangers and the Isles at 222 apiece) POOR

'10-11 30th POOR

'11-12 T-11th AVERAGE

 

Obviously scoring this season and last have been an issue as well, but I'm talking about Marty's prime (clearly he was past it last season and this).

 

So, by my count, for the whole period and not just the last 10 seasons:

 

Excellent 4 times

Good once

Average 6 times

Poor 7 times  

 

It has nothing to do with "low standards"; it has to do with correctly interpreting ironclad numbers over an 18-year sample and not presenting something that isn't there. 

 

Yes, offense has been a problem lately...six "POOR"s and four "AVERAGE"s in the past 10 seasons, and like I've already said, I think some of Marty's best regular-season work came during this time, especially since it was needed.  My problem with what you were presenting was, again, you were basically making it sound like Marty's entire career has been spent playing behind offensively-challenged teams and that he was constantly having to win games 1-0.  That was a lot closer to being true over the second half of his career, but it absolutely does not apply to the entire sample above.

 

Ironically, because the Devils stopped winning Cups during that time, some Devils fans and many outsiders will assume that Marty's best goaltending came during the Cup years.  It actually was all during the post-lockout era.  He faced a lot more shots, had considerably less-talented defensemen to work with, yet put up his many of his best save%s during this era, and the Devils goal differentials were very low for the number of points they accumulated, which shows that they needed every bit of Marty's strong goaltending to overachieve to those records. 

 

It's a little like the head coach who wins championships with the league's best roster, then goes to a bottom feeder and squeezes .500ish records out of minimal talent.  His finest work probably came with the .500ish teams, but he'll be remembered for other things. 


Edited by Colorado Rockies 1976, 09 April 2014 - 03:21 PM.

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THE NHL MUST LOVE THE DEVILS - from who else? A RANGER fan!
[Mark Messier]: A big, bald attention whore with a stupid Easter Island-lookin face. - from who else? DaneykoIsGod!

Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.
Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime?
- Most priceless quote ever posted on a message board.

Martin Brodeur: THE MOST ALL-TIME WINS!, 12 straight seasons of 30+ wins, 3 Stanley Cups, 4 Vezina Trophies, and zero respect from too many so-called Devils "fans" who are either too young or too bandwagon to remember the much darker days of Sean Burke, Craig Billington, Bob Sauve, Alain Chevrier, and the talented but overwhelmed Chico Resch, among many others.

It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

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20 out of 1,946 njdevs.com members agree: CR1976 is the Most Knowledgable Poster of 2008! Victory is mine...oh yes, victory is mine!

#120 NJDfan1711

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 03:07 PM

'93-94 2nd EXCELLENT

'94-95 T-13th with four other teams AVERAGE

'95-96 25th (out of 26 teams) POOR

'96-97 16th AVERAGE

'97-98 9th GOOD

'98-99 2nd EXCELLENT

'99-00 2nd EXCELLENT

'00-01 1st (wow three straight years at 1 or 2) EXCELLENT

'01-02 T-20th (yikes what a fall) POOR

'02-03 14th AVERAGE

'03-04 14th AVERAGE

'05-06 21st POOR

'06-07 T-24th POOR

'07-08 26th POOR

'08-09 15th AVERAGE

'09-10 T-19th (tied with the Rangers and the Isles at 222 apiece) POOR

'10-11 30th POOR

'11-12 T-11th AVERAGE

 

Obviously scoring this season and last have been an issue as well, but I'm talking about Marty's prime (clearly he was past it last season and this).

 

So, by my count, for the whole period and not just the last 10 seasons:

 

Excellent 4 times

Good once

Average 6 times

Poor 7 times  

 

It has nothing to do with "low standards", it has to do with correctly intepreting ironclad numbers over an 18-year sample and not presenting something that isn't there. 

 

Yes, offense has been a problem lately...six "POOR"s and four "AVERAGE"s in the past 10 seasons, and like I've already said, I think some of Marty's best regular-season work came during this time, especially since it was needed.  My problem with what you were presenting was, again, you were basically making it sound like Marty's entire career has been spent playing behind offensively-challenged teams and that he was constantly having to win games 1-0.  That was a lot closer to being true over the second half of his career, but it absolutely does not apply to the entire sample above.

 

Ironically, because the Devils stopped winning Cups during that time, some Devils fans and many outsiders will assume that Marty's best goaltending came during the Cup years.  It actually was all during the post-lockout era.  He faced a lot more shots, had considerably less-talented defensemen to work with, yet put up his many of his best save%s during this era, and the Devils goal differentials were very low for the number of points they accumulated, which shows that they needed every bit of Marty's strong goaltending to overachieve to those records. 

 

It's a little like the head coach who wins championships with the league's best roster, then goes to a bottom feeder and squeezes .500ish records out of minimal talent.  His finest work probably came with the .500ish teams, but he'll be remembered for other things. 

We finally agree. :)


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