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#81 Marshall

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 02:08 PM

Jagr played Euro Hockey Tour game vs Sweden today, was out working on his skating before warmups, then stayed behind and worked on his stickhandling in the hallway after the game. 


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#82 2ELIAS6

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 03:12 PM

Jagr played Euro Hockey Tour game vs Sweden today, was out working on his skating before warmups, then stayed behind and worked on his stickhandling in the hallway after the game.

this is exactly what keeps him so young and competitive he practices twice as hard as everyone else to stay sharp and fit on his game.
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#83 Chimaira_Devil_#9

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Posted 02 May 2014 - 04:01 AM

:offtopic:

 

I was looking at Jagr's stats today and got to wondering "if he hadn't bailed to the KHL would he be challenging Gretzky for most goals in NHL History?"

 

Looking at his numbers pre and post move, he might have got a extra 75-90 goals in that 3 years, that still puts him over 100 goals off Gretzky at the end of this season. Even with those extra seasons he would have to play until he was 50 to get there without a massive decline.

 

I really cant ever see any of Gretzky's scotring records ever beinf broken.

 

However i can see Jagr trying to play in the NHL at the age of 50.  


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#84 Pepperkorn

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Posted 02 May 2014 - 08:36 AM

this is exactly what keeps him so young and competitive he practices twice as hard as everyone else to stay sharp and fit on his game.

Now this is written like a dude who has no idea what aging is like. 

 

Yes hard work does come into play -- but you MUST have the genes to continue.  Marty has worked his ass off (as much as we'd like to paint him a lazy pizza eating slob) he has done EVERYTHING right since figuring out the aging thing.  Sometimes you just have to accept you'll have limitations some other guy doesn't.  But you DO have to push it to see if you've really hit your limit. 

 

My mother told me at 75 that she and my dad were now really and truly old -- sure you think you are when your 65~70 -- but at 75 it's for real.  NOW she's 78 and called and said "Nah -- I was wrong - you can still snap back IF you'll just get off your ass"


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#85 Marshall

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Posted 02 May 2014 - 12:54 PM

:offtopic:

 

I was looking at Jagr's stats today and got to wondering "if he hadn't bailed to the KHL would he be challenging Gretzky for most goals in NHL History?"

 

Looking at his numbers pre and post move, he might have got a extra 75-90 goals in that 3 years, that still puts him over 100 goals off Gretzky at the end of this season. Even with those extra seasons he would have to play until he was 50 to get there without a massive decline.

 

I really cant ever see any of Gretzky's scotring records ever beinf broken.

 

However i can see Jagr trying to play in the NHL at the age of 50.  

 

Don't forget the lockouts.


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#86 devilsrule33

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Posted 02 May 2014 - 01:11 PM

:offtopic:

I was looking at Jagr's stats today and got to wondering "if he hadn't bailed to the KHL would he be challenging Gretzky for most goals in NHL History?"

Looking at his numbers pre and post move, he might have got a extra 75-90 goals in that 3 years, that still puts him over 100 goals off Gretzky at the end of this season. Even with those extra seasons he would have to play until he was 50 to get there without a massive decline.

I really cant ever see any of Gretzky's scotring records ever beinf broken.

However i can see Jagr trying to play in the NHL at the age of 50.


It's possible, but passing Gretzky or not, there is no doubt in my mind that Jagr is equal if not better a goal scorer than Gretzky. Neither are what you would define as a pure "goal-scorer". Jagr has only hit 50 goals 3 times in his career and 40 goals 6 times.

Gretzky had the advantage of playing during the entire 80s decade. When systems/coaching and especially goalies got better with the butterfly being more prevalent and equipment getting bigger in the mid to late 90s, he had trouble scoring. He was still an incredibly talented passer and thinker that allowed him to put up seasons like 23-79-102, 25-72-97, 23-67-90, 9-52-62 to end his career.

I know people have formulas to adjust scoring for era. It be interesting to see if they can dump Jagr in the 80s or what not and see what it be. I gather if Jagr played in the exact seasons that Gretzky played in, he'd have 2200+ points or so.

As for the KHL and lockouts, you can add goals and what not, but it's hard to know what would happen. People have specualted that Jagr needed to go to the KHL to be the person/player he is right now. Without those KHL years, maybe he isn't in the NHL right now.

Edited by devilsrule33, 02 May 2014 - 04:06 PM.

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#87 StormJosh

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Posted 02 May 2014 - 03:34 PM

It's possible, but passing Gretzky or not, there is no doubt in my mind that Jagr is equal if not better a goal scorer than Gretzky. Neither are what you would define as a pure "goal-scorer". Jagr has only hit 50 goals 3 times in his career and 40 goals 6 times. 

 

Gretzky had the advantage of playing during the entire 80s decade. When systems/coaching and especially goalies got better with the butterfly being more prevalent and equipment getting bigger in the mid to late 90s, he had trouble scoring. He was still an incredibly talented passer and thinker that allowed him to put up seasons like 23-79-102, 25-72-97, 23-67-90, 9-52-62 to end his career. 

 

I know people have formulas to adjust scoring for error. It be interesting to see if they can dump Jagr in the 80s or what not and see what it be. I gather if Jagr played in the exact seasons that Gretzky played in, he'd have 2200+ points or so.

 

As for the KHL and lockouts, you can add goals and what not, but it's hard to know what would happen. People have specualted that Jagr needed to go to the KHL to be the person/player he is right now. Without those KHL years, maybe he isn't in the NHL right now.

 

Even using those formulas, Gretzky was way ahead of everyone else and it wasn't really that close.

 

That doesn't mean that Gretzky was better than Jagr, what it means is that Gretzky was far better RELATIVE to players who played at the same time to him than Jagr was better than players against him. As we know, the standard of play in hockey has improved greatly since 1980, from systems, skating, fitness, diet, skill, talent, everything. So....Gretzky was better than the average player during his career by a lot more than Jagr was better than the average player during Jagr's career.

 

Thats all the advanced stats can really tell you. 


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#88 devilsrule33

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Posted 02 May 2014 - 04:19 PM

Even using those formulas, Gretzky was way ahead of everyone else and it wasn't really that close.

 

That doesn't mean that Gretzky was better than Jagr, what it means is that Gretzky was far better RELATIVE to players who played at the same time to him than Jagr was better than players against him. As we know, the standard of play in hockey has improved greatly since 1980, from systems, skating, fitness, diet, skill, talent, everything. So....Gretzky was better than the average player during his career by a lot more than Jagr was better than the average player during Jagr's career.

 

Thats all the advanced stats can really tell you. 

 

I'm with you. That's why I said 2200 points and not close at all to Gretzky's 2857. 2200 might be a conservative estimate anyway.


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#89 CarpathianForest

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Posted 02 May 2014 - 06:31 PM

this is exactly what keeps him so young and competitive he practices twice as hard as everyone else to stay sharp and fit on his game.

 

And Marty practices by eating pizza on his couch.


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#90 2ELIAS6

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Posted 02 May 2014 - 08:53 PM

And Marty practices by eating pizza on his couch.

thats just not right
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#91 Martyisth3b3st

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Posted 03 May 2014 - 12:23 AM

And Marty practices by eating pizza on his couch.


I hope this is a joke, because for Brodeur to be playing at NHL quality for this long it's clear he is dedicated to some sort of training regime that works.
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#92 RizzMB30

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Posted 03 May 2014 - 04:19 AM

I think 'tenders start to get beer guts at that age.  He's 42. .  


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#93 Joonas #6

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Posted 03 May 2014 - 05:08 AM

I want Jagr to become my personal trainer when/if he retires.


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#94 bobilly45

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Posted 03 May 2014 - 01:56 PM

And Marty practices by eating pizza on his couch.


Do you really think he doesnt work out?. If so you are an idiot. Ill bet anything hes in better shape now at 41-42 then youll ever be.
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#95 CarpathianForest

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Posted 03 May 2014 - 04:21 PM

Do you really think he doesnt work out?. If so you are an idiot. Ill bet anything hes in better shape now at 41-42 then youll ever be.

 

It was meant to be a joke, Drangus.


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#96 SterioDesign

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Posted 03 May 2014 - 04:53 PM

Jagr also faced a higher level of goaltending than gretzky IMO


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#97 Triumph

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 11:02 PM

Even using those formulas, Gretzky was way ahead of everyone else and it wasn't really that close.

 

That doesn't mean that Gretzky was better than Jagr, what it means is that Gretzky was far better RELATIVE to players who played at the same time to him than Jagr was better than players against him. As we know, the standard of play in hockey has improved greatly since 1980, from systems, skating, fitness, diet, skill, talent, everything. So....Gretzky was better than the average player during his career by a lot more than Jagr was better than the average player during Jagr's career.

 

Thats all the advanced stats can really tell you. 

 

I am not sure I agree with this.  Gretzky in his prime got to play with very talented players.  Jagr had Lemieux, but after he retired, that was a pretty dire Pittsburgh team.  People might want to say that Martin Straka is good but he played years and years with Jagr - who knows how good he is without Jagr?  After he left Pittsburgh the first time he had some not good years.

 

On the other hand, there's some evidence that Jari Kurri and Glenn Anderson weren't all that great either.

 

It would've been interesting to see how Jagr in his prime would've done surrounded by other HOFers.  I think Gretzky is better certainly but I think the gap is less than you might imagine.


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#98 grcenter47

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 11:06 PM

jagr put up some good numbers with nylander and straka


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#99 StormJosh

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 09:17 AM

I am not sure I agree with this.  Gretzky in his prime got to play with very talented players.  Jagr had Lemieux, but after he retired, that was a pretty dire Pittsburgh team.  People might want to say that Martin Straka is good but he played years and years with Jagr - who knows how good he is without Jagr?  After he left Pittsburgh the first time he had some not good years.

 

On the other hand, there's some evidence that Jari Kurri and Glenn Anderson weren't all that great either.

 

It would've been interesting to see how Jagr in his prime would've done surrounded by other HOFers.  I think Gretzky is better certainly but I think the gap is less than you might imagine.

 

Which part were you disagreeing with? I'm not saying one way or another whose linemates were better. My point was solely that advanced stats point to Gretzky being far better than an average NHLer during his playing career (therefore replacement level, as well) than Jagr was during his.

 

I didn't watch enough of Gretzky in his prime to make a personal judgment as to who I think is better, I'm only commenting on what the stats are pointing to, and none of them (at least that I've seen) seem to conclude that Gretzky was better than Jagr or visa-versa. 


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#100 DJ Eco

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 10:13 AM

Brodeur is far from out of shape. Don't forget, after the half-lockout last season 2012-2013, he started off super strong for the first month or so of the season when we were on that super hot streak. They asked Marty what he did to prepare for the season during the extended offseason, and he joked around and said he did nothing special, just played golf. But it was pretty obvious he was at the top of his game and fitness until he got that injury.


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