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#61 sundstrom

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 03:58 PM

I've come around to it, what can I say. Probably because we had a goalie that had a good one. My only point about Marty is that notwithstanding his save percentage he hasn't been a calamity, except until this year.


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he was terrible two years ago also - yes, i know the offense was a disaster. but c'mon. you cannot be arguing that marty is about equal to cam ward.


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#62 Daniel

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 05:39 PM

he was terrible two years ago also - yes, i know the offense was a disaster. but c'mon. you cannot be arguing that marty is about equal to cam ward.


All things equal of course not. Ward though is a very expensive bad goalie that's under contract for two more years. Marty is a worse goalie that will cost a lot less, that you can sign for one year, and might sell you a few extra t-shirts.

Let me put it this way, who on earth would want to touch Bryzgolav if you had to pay him $3 million plus for the next two years? I know that if that were the case at the trade deadline, Minnesota would have rather gone with Marty. Bryzgolav, as bad as he was in Philly, has been better over the past few years than Ward.

And really, Ward has been pretty overrated for his entire career. He's been to the playoffs twice. He's had three seasons where his save percentage was worse than what Marty's was this year, and it clearly looks like he's peaked, if save percentage is what you're going by.

Basically, if it weren't for that Cup run, he'd be thought of as about as useful as Hedeberg was in his first two years with the Devils. If Hedberg had an anchor of a contract no one would touch him.


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#63 Triumph

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 06:47 PM

All things equal of course not. Ward though is a very expensive bad goalie that's under contract for two more years. Marty is a worse goalie that will cost a lot less, that you can sign for one year, and might sell you a few extra t-shirts.

 

Merchandise money is pooled, so you get 1/30th of those extra t-shirts you sell.  You are concluding that Cam Ward is bad based on flimsy evidence.

 

 

 

Let me put it this way, who on earth would want to touch Bryzgolav if you had to pay him $3 million plus for the next two years? I know that if that were the case at the trade deadline, Minnesota would have rather gone with Marty. Bryzgolav, as bad as he was in Philly, has been better over the past few years than Ward.

 

No, he hasn't.  Ward has a .910 the last 3 years, Bryzgalov a .906.
 

 

And really, Ward has been pretty overrated for his entire career. He's been to the playoffs twice. He's had three seasons where his save percentage was worse than what Marty's was this year, and it clearly looks like he's peaked, if save percentage is what you're going by.

 

Ward struggled his first 3 years, but he put together 5 solid years after that.
 

 

Basically, if it weren't for that Cup run, he'd be thought of as about as useful as Hedeberg was in his first two years with the Devils. If Hedberg had an anchor of a contract no one would touch him.

 

That's utter insanity, because you restricted it to two years, two years when Hedberg posted a decent SV% as opposed to a bad one.  Hedberg's SV% is one of the worst of the era.  Ward's is not.  Among goalies with 200 games played since Lockout II, Ward ranks 26th out of 46 in SV%, and his SV% is .008 higher.  That doesn't sound like a lot, but Ward's faced over 13000 shots, so each point of SV% is worth 13 goals.
 


Edited by Triumph, 08 May 2014 - 06:49 PM.

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#64 RizzMB30

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 07:03 PM

I just don't see where that will be.

 

I just don't see him landing anywhere where he even has a chance to be a 1A.  

Agreed

 

I think we all know Brodeur doesn't want to be a backup. He's not wired for it, and frankly someone with that good a career shouldn't have to be 42 and a back up in the league. I find it almost impossible that he could come back to 15-20 games with it clearly defined that he will not be the starter at all.

 

Brodeur is hoping for a 2008 Red Wings Hasek situation. where you have a very solid team that doesn't have a clear answer in nets. Hasek was 43 and he was pretty much done, but there was always hope for him and concern with Wings management with Osgood in nets. Basically, he's hoping to be given a shot to win the net.

 

That simply can not happen in New Jersey. Marty knows it too. He said as much in a bunch of quotes. Ego and competition and wanting to play took over (pretty much why he wanted to be traded), but since he cares so much about this franchise, he knows that what he wants and what the franchise needs don't align at all. They didn't align last year, and it will be catastrophic this year.

 

For Brodeur, it has to be an opportunity with another team, or his career is over. 

 

 

How can you possibly know how Marty is "wired"?  You aren't a personal acquaintance, are you, if you are you should totally get an autograph for me.  There are different ways to interpret these said quotes and you seemingly took every word Brodeur said as him being selfish, negative and whiny.  Have you considered that he just loves the game? I know its been said over and over against by color guys, media, etc. and the like.  Marty will likely be back as a backup, its that or retire.  Who is Marty going to contact when he tries to find another place to sign and only gets 1 or 2 other options that will ALSO be backup jobs?  The following is from Tom Gulitti
 

 

"But Brodeur has not ruled out coming back to the Devils next season as Cory Schneider's backup.  The question would not answer today whether the organization wants Brodeur back or has to move on fully committed to Schneider, who acquired with the ninth overall pick in last years draft to be the team's eventual No.1" - TG Apr 14.

On whether there is a magic number of games he’d have to be guaranteed to return to the Devils:
“There’s not. It’s not out of the question that the Devils will be in the running for me to come back, but I haven’t talked to Lou about it at all, (as far as) what he wants to do with backing up Schneids. Again, if I am ready mentally to do that job, I’m going to look for the Devils a little bit. But, right now, I’m keeping everything open and we’ll see. I’ll talk to him and see what he feels is best for the organization. It’s not about me anymore. I’m free. He’s not stuck with me anymore.”

On what it would be like to enter a season as the designated backup:
“It would be nice, wouldn’t it? Less pressure. But, look at the situation in Tampa with (Ben) Bishop going down (with a wrist injury) and other teams if their starter gets hurt, it happens, you know. When you go through an 82-game season, (there are) a lot of breaks and I think when you’re looking at the right decision – listen, if I sign somewhere as a backup it’s not going to be to just barely make the playoffs. It’s going to be a team that will contend for a Stanley Cup.” - TG Apr 13.

 

The bolded is what stood out to me the most when I read this TG post.  I personally believe that he may not be mentally ready to play backup, BUT the underlying fact is that he likely won't find a job elsewhere, and likely will not start.  He also states, "It's not about me anymore." I don't see that as selfish.  The 3rd and final question and quote is simply stating that he longs to keep playing and competing for a Cup.  The way I see it is that if he wants to continue to keep playing, he has to swallow his "pride", or retire.

 

Perhaps a middle ground is a situation where he doesn't start off as a 1A, but would get a shot if the starter falters.  While there are fewer and fewer of them, there are still enough GMs that value clutchness and might want a guy like Marty who has had playoff success, as compared with goalies like Niemi who have a reputation of choking in the playoffs. 

 

Carolina might also fit the bill.  I could definitely see Ward being amnestied, and Khudobin is not firmly established enough to say he would otherwise be getting the starts no matter what. 

I still believe that Ward is still/was a top tier(a stretch maybe, I know) goalie on a piss-poor team.  He's given Carolina fits because of injuries and such, but that's the only reason I'd move Ward is once Khudobin HAS established himself, which could be likely because he looked really good towards the end of this season. 


Edited by RizzMB30, 08 May 2014 - 07:15 PM.

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#65 Daniel

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 07:12 PM

Merchandise money is pooled, so you get 1/30th of those extra t-shirts you sell. You are concluding that Cam Ward is bad based on flimsy evidence.



At
No, he hasn't. Ward has a .910 the last 3 years, Bryzgalov a .906.



Ward struggled his first 3 years, but he put together 5 solid years after that.



That's utter insanity, because you restricted it to two years, two years when Hedberg posted a decent SV% as opposed to a bad one. Hedberg's SV% is one of the worst of the era. Ward's is not. Among goalies with 200 games played since Lockout II, Ward ranks 26th out of 46 in SV%, and his SV% is .008 higher. That doesn't sound like a lot, but Ward's faced over 13000 shots, so each point of SV% is worth 13 goals.

So that .004 is worth the money you have to pay Ward over Bryzgolov?

Ward's save percentage has declined in three straight years. It was terrible this year (worse than Marty's) and was not great shakes the year before, certainly well below league average. He's a $6.5 million goalie that lost his starting job. Hedbergs save percentage in his first two years with the Devils was better than Ward's his past two years. Three years ago, or the basically a tie for the second best save percentage year Ward ever had, he was slightly better than Hedberg in 2010-2011.

Ward blows. So does Marty. Marty is going to cost you a lot less. You're ignoring that.

Edit: I meant essentially a tie for second best save percentage of his career.

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Edited by Daniel, 08 May 2014 - 07:28 PM.

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#66 RizzMB30

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 07:35 PM

Ward blows. So does Marty. Marty is going to cost you a lot less. You're ignoring that.


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He's not suggesting acquiring Ward or anything, we have a starter already.  You're ignoring that fact the Ward has been behind a team that has been consistently bad for the past 3 or 4 years, probably more.  On top of that, it's extremely difficult for a goalie to get into a good rhythm when he is consistently injured.  Not saying I'd have total faith in Ward as a starter because he hasn't been very good when he has played, but I don't think he's done. 


Edited by RizzMB30, 08 May 2014 - 07:38 PM.

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#67 devilsrule33

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 07:43 PM

Agreed

 

 

 

How can you possibly know how Marty is "wired"?  You aren't a personal acquaintance, are you, if you are you should totally get an autograph for me.  There are different ways to interpret these said quotes and you seemingly took every word Brodeur said as him being selfish, negative and whiny.  Have you considered that he just loves the game? I know its been said over and over against by color guys, media, etc. and the like.  Marty will likely be back as a backup, its that or retire.  Who is Marty going to contact when he tries to find another place to sign and only gets 1 or 2 other options that will ALSO be backup jobs?  The following is from Tom Gulitti
 

The bolded is what stood out to me the most when I read this TG post.  I personally believe that he may not be mentally ready to play backup, BUT the underlying fact is that he likely won't find a job elsewhere, and likely will not start.  He also states, "It's not about me anymore." I don't see that as selfish.  The 3rd and final question and quote is simply stating that he longs to keep playing and competing for a Cup.  The way I see it is that if he wants to continue to keep playing, he has to swallow his "pride", or retire.

 

I still believe that Ward is still/was a top tier(a stretch maybe, I know) goalie on a piss-poor team.  He's given Carolina fits because of injuries and such, but that's the only reason I'd move Ward is once Khudobin HAS established himself, which could be likely because he looked really good towards the end of this season. 

 

Because Brodeur talks to the media constantly. Who here would argue that he isn't wired that way? I don't have time to go through all the quotes, but off the top of my head, Brodeur wanted to get traded when he sat on the bench 10 or so games because that isn't him. He said he doesn't play hockey to sit on the bench. He also said  that he doesn't want to play less than he did this year. There's enough out there to know how he is wired.

 

If Brodeur comes back in a strictly backup role...he's going to really have to talk himself into doing it.

 

I said before there is nothing wrong with him being wired that way, though.


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#68 Daniel

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 07:51 PM

He's not suggesting acquiring Ward or anything, we have a starter already. You're ignoring that fact the Ward has been behind a team that has been consistently bad for the past 3 or 4 years, probably more. On top of that, it's extremely difficult for a goalie to get into a good rhythm when he is consistently injured. Not saying I'd have total faith in Ward as a starter because he hasn't been very good when he has played, but I don't think he's done.


I'm not talking about the Devils getting Ward, and I don't believe Tri is either. That would be insane. I suggested the possibilty that Brodeur as a possibility for Carolina if they amnesty Ward, or that he's a better option than Ward for some other team that would be looking for someone that can compete for a bigger role than a straight backup. The difference between the two is price.


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#69 Triumph

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 08:12 PM

I'm not talking about the Devils getting Ward, and I don't believe Tri is either. That would be insane. I suggested the possibilty that Brodeur as a possibility for Carolina if they amnesty Ward, or that he's a better option than Ward for some other team that would be looking for someone that can compete for a bigger role than a straight backup. The difference between the two is price.


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No, the difference between the two is Price - the difference between Ward and Brodeur is probably the same as Ward and Carey Price, because not only is Brodeur 42, he's been bad the last 4 years.  Ward is 30.  Bryzgalov will be 34 in a month and everyone thinks he's nuts.  It's the purest sophistry to argue that Ward is equal to Brodeur - that's not likely.  It may be the case - Ward may be through - but I'm not betting on someone of his caliber being done at 30.


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#70 Daniel

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 08:37 PM

No, the difference between the two is Price - the difference between Ward and Brodeur is probably the same as Ward and Carey Price, because not only is Brodeur 42, he's been bad the last 4 years. Ward is 30. Bryzgalov will be 34 in a month and everyone thinks he's nuts. It's the purest sophistry to argue that Ward is equal to Brodeur - that's not likely. It may be the case - Ward may be through - but I'm not betting on someone of his caliber being done at 30.


What caliber? A 30 year old goalie, that has a contract with an AAV that's comparable to Tuka Rask, with injury problems, and a career below average save percnetage, which is declining and who hasn't really won a ton either.

Again, if not for that Stanley Cup run, we wouldn't be talking about him as much more than a borderline starter. Want another guy who's been better than him.. Evgeni Nabakov.


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#71 RizzMB30

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 10:09 PM

Because Brodeur talks to the media constantly. Who here would argue that he isn't wired that way? I don't have time to go through all the quotes, but off the top of my head, Brodeur wanted to get traded when he sat on the bench 10 or so games because that isn't him. He said he doesn't play hockey to sit on the bench. He also said  that he doesn't want to play less than he did this year. There's enough out there to know how he is wired.

 

If Brodeur comes back in a strictly backup role...he's going to really have to talk himself into doing it.

 

I said before there is nothing wrong with him being wired that way, though.

That's a normal hockey player quote.  It's not being bitchy or whiny necessarily.  How many hockey players have you heard say, "Oh yeah, riding the bench is the best part of the sport!"  Then think about being a goalie and having to sit out and watch an entire game and be the fvcking "door guy".  Like I said, it's backup or retire for Brodeur.  Obviously he's going to try to go somewhere where he can get more games, and he might, but if I'm him I'm not going to hold my breath.  I'm arguing that he isn't necessarily "wired" in any way.  He's just a pro athlete who loves his sport, and still does.  I think I understand what you mean when he's not wired that way, which I can agree with, but he's going to have to get over it if he still wants to play at all.  

I'm wondering if Marty would pull a Chelios and continue to play on minor teams if he still wants to play that badly.  That is unlikely though.


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#72 RowdyFan42

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 07:34 PM

I'm wondering if Marty would pull a Chelios and continue to play on minor teams if he still wants to play that badly.  That is unlikely though.

I was going to suggest that myself, but I thought I might be, you know, beaten with sticks.  :D

 

I was specifically thinking of Albany (of course), but even if Marty was willing, I don't think there's room for him in the system.

 

And it depends on his motivations.  If he merely wants to keep playing, maybe he'd consider going to the minors somewhere.  If he's still shooting for 700 NHL wins, he'll choose the path that gets him there the fastest.


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#73 Devils Pride 26

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 10:25 PM

If Lou wasn't such an idiot, he would have traded two first round picks and Brodeur for PK Subban. It worked in NHL 14 so...


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#74 2ELIAS6

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 11:44 PM

I was going to suggest that myself, but I thought I might be, you know, beaten with sticks.  :D
 
I was specifically thinking of Albany (of course), but even if Marty was willing, I don't think there's room for him in the system.
 
And it depends on his motivations.  If he merely wants to keep playing, maybe he'd consider going to the minors somewhere.  If he's still shooting for 700 NHL wins, he'll choose the path that gets him there the fastest.

There is NO way he goes to play in the minors are you seriously kidding right now?.. in his mind he still believes he is a number one.. he knows hes the best to have ever played the game.. why would you ever think he would play in the minors he would just straight up retire.
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#75 thecoffeecake

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 12:53 AM

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#76 MadDog2020

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 09:06 AM

The minors, I really didn't think anyone would go there lmfao. There's a better chance of Charlie Sheen becoming a monk than Marty playing in the minors.
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#77 RizzMB30

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 04:41 PM

There is NO way he goes to play in the minors are you seriously kidding right now?.. in his mind he still believes he is a number one.. he knows hes the best to have ever played the game.. why would you ever think he would play in the minors he would just straight up retire.

It doesn't matter what Marty thinks he is...The argument is for the love the game.  Is that a difficult concept to understand?  It doesn't matter what HE thinks or believes in terms of being a number one.  He won't be able to find a number one job.  It doesn't matter what Martin Brodeur thinks, what matters is what the other teams around the league think of him. 


Edited by RizzMB30, 11 May 2014 - 04:44 PM.

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#78 RowdyFan42

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 08:33 PM

There is NO way he goes to play in the minors are you seriously kidding right now?.. in his mind he still believes he is a number one.. he knows hes the best to have ever played the game.. why would you ever think he would play in the minors he would just straight up retire.

Aaaaand out come the sticks.  :tomato:

 

If, like you said, Marty believes he's a number one, the minors are his best bet.  He's not going to find a starting position in the NHL.  The best he can hope for is a situation like he was in this season, a backup role that offers him 30-ish games a year.  So, as I was saying, it depends on his motivations.  If he's thinking "NHL starter or bust", he might as well retire now.  If he's thinking that a NHL backup role would be acceptable, there are any number of jobs open to him.  If he's thinking "I just want to play, I don't care where", then yes, the minors become an option.

 

For the record, I doubt it'll happen.  He'll either retire or spend one or two more years as a backup (probably here, but maybe elsewhere).  But I'd be surprised if the thought of going to the minors doesn't at least cross his mind.


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#79 Brandon

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 09:58 PM

I wonder if there really is a market for Marty at all, the goaltender market is limited as is and this UFA crop and possible trade group has many choices that are far better than Brodeur (Hiller, Miller, Halak, Ward just to name a few). I could honestly see him just retiring if he doesn't come back to the Devils.


Edited by Brandon, 11 May 2014 - 09:59 PM.

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#80 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 06:35 AM

Aaaaand out come the sticks.  :tomato:

 

If, like you said, Marty believes he's a number one, the minors are his best bet.  He's not going to find a starting position in the NHL.  The best he can hope for is a situation like he was in this season, a backup role that offers him 30-ish games a year.  So, as I was saying, it depends on his motivations.  If he's thinking "NHL starter or bust", he might as well retire now.  If he's thinking that a NHL backup role would be acceptable, there are any number of jobs open to him.  If he's thinking "I just want to play, I don't care where", then yes, the minors become an option.

 

For the record, I doubt it'll happen.  He'll either retire or spend one or two more years as a backup (probably here, but maybe elsewhere).  But I'd be surprised if the thought of going to the minors doesn't at least cross his mind.

 

I wonder what good it would do for some franchise to stick Marty in the minors (even if Marty was on board with the idea).  I guess if you have NO goalie prospects at all, and want depth in case your NHL goalies go down...but I think most NHL franchises know Marty's simply not very good anymore.  Tri continues to make the mistake of lumping the last four seasons together as bad, but the last two were definitely pretty bad overall.  It's really hard to make a case for Marty being any better than he was over the last two years (scary to think he could be even worse). 


Edited by Colorado Rockies 1976, 12 May 2014 - 06:36 AM.

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Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime?
- Most priceless quote ever posted on a message board.

Martin Brodeur: THE MOST ALL-TIME WINS!, 12 straight seasons of 30+ wins, 3 Stanley Cups, 4 Vezina Trophies, and zero respect from too many so-called Devils "fans" who are either too young or too bandwagon to remember the much darker days of Sean Burke, Craig Billington, Bob Sauve, Alain Chevrier, and the talented but overwhelmed Chico Resch, among many others.

It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

#30 FOREVER!

20 out of 1,946 njdevs.com members agree: CR1976 is the Most Knowledgable Poster of 2008! Victory is mine...oh yes, victory is mine!




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