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Trading one of the Young Defensemen


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#21 HellOnICE

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 10:11 PM

I think they could feisty - I just think any deal involving the Devils for a forward - the team would want Henrique in return as part of package involving a young D and Henrique.


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#22 lazer

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 10:20 PM

winni would


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#23 Triumph

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 10:38 PM

I'm on the fence about waiting a year to see what we have.  On one hand, there is the obvious that we'll know more about each player, but on the other hand, what if Gelinas doesn't figure it out?  What if Larsson doesn't improve? What if Severson doesn't translate well to the pro game? I'm not really worried about Merrill because I think he'll be the best of the bunch. If the doomsday scenario that NJ is stuck with a lot of meh occurs, well we're pretty screwed. Might be better to take a shot at a trade and spread out your wealth.  BTW, I think they hold onto Larsson because he is a RH shot and at least we/they know he can play in the league.

 

You make a deal in a year.  Trades happen when two teams mutually value each other's player more than they value their own.  Some young winger will have a down year and they'll want to move him, and then a deal will happen.  The only guy possibly to the apex of his value is Gelinas, but the upside with Gelinas is so enormous that I'd be hesitant to move him.  My point is that guys like Atkinson, Tatar, Jurco, Etem - none of these guys are likely to be great players.  It'd be nice to have one of them, but I don't want to give up on the wrong D.


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#24 DH26

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 10:40 PM

I think they could feisty - I just think any deal involving the Devils for a forward - the team would want Henrique in return as part of package involving a young D and Henrique.

 

Toronto and Winnipeg both are pretty much dumb as rocks so it's hard to know what they'd value. One keeps with Pavelec and the Leafs are the dumbest team in organized sports so who knows they might like Salvador more than Larsson (they did run Mark Fraser out there a bunch a couple years ago). Winnipeg I don't really know well enough but unless you're getting Wheeler back or Byfuglien (even if he should stay on D) I dunno 


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#25 RizzMB30

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 07:30 AM

All these trade talk and speculation is all fine and dandy, but why would the Devils make a trade for a scoring forward when free agency is just around the corner?  Why give up assets when you can give up none of them for a scorer.  The only trades I see coming are ones that will dump some of our dead weight.  I just don't see the Devils giving up Henrique.


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#26 MadDog2020

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 07:41 AM

All these trade talk and speculation is all fine and dandy, but why would the Devils make a trade for a scoring forward when free agency is just around the corner? Why give up assets when you can give up none of them for a scorer. The only trades I see coming are ones that will dump some of our dead weight. I just don't see the Devils giving up Henrique.

The only guy worth going after in FA is Stastny, and he's a center. The Devils need a scoring winger also, and the FA pickings are slim.
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#27 redruM

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 08:27 AM

I'd love to trade for Evander Kane or Nazem Kadri but I don't know if Winnipeg or Toronto would want any of NJ's young D.

I'd love to see Kane in NJ, but doubt it will happen.


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#28 RizzMB30

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 10:02 AM

The only guy worth going after in FA is Stastny, and he's a center. The Devils need a scoring winger also, and the FA pickings are slim.

It seems like people say this every year.  I disagree, they may seem slim at times but there's more than a few good players to pick up, and wingers too.  There's Gaborik(no thanks however), Stasny, Callahan, Michalek, Cammalleri, Whitney, Vrbata, Jokinen, Kulemin, Bouchard, Moulson, Vanek, Roy, Iginla, Hemsky.  The issue is losing the current dead weight.  I'd add any of those guys if we had space.  I think Michalek and Cammalleri would be great fits here.  We've had some good luck with Czech players recently so I'd take a flyer on Vrbata as well. 


Edited by RizzMB30, 06 June 2014 - 10:03 AM.

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#29 MadDog2020

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 10:12 AM

The guys you just named (aside from maybe Moulson and Vrbata) are a whole lotta meh. You don't get young (key word here: YOUNG) first line guys in free agency. You have to trade for high-end talent like that. And forget Vanek, he isn't coming here and he'll be ridiculously overpaid.

Edited by MadDog2020, 06 June 2014 - 10:14 AM.

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#30 RizzMB30

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 10:26 AM

I was arguing against the idea that free agency was slim.  Michalek has been a first line player for virtually his whole career whether it was in SJ or OTT.  I'd want him before Vrbata.  I totally disagree that you HAVE to trade to acquire top end talent.  Yes, to acquire players younger than 27 or 28, yeah obviously you need to trade for players such as that, my main point is we don't have the assets to trade at this point.  We simply don't.


Edited by RizzMB30, 06 June 2014 - 10:27 AM.

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#31 Marshall

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 10:44 AM

When I look at the 3 defensemen, I see Gelinas, who could be something really excellent.  It's not likely - Gelinas's play in the defensive zone this past year makes me think he will never quite figure it out.  The game will speed up and he'll get less panicky, but he will still be prone to mistakes.  But the Devils have not had something like Gelinas in a very, very long time - in fact, I can't think of the last time NJ had a D prospect like Gelinas, and that's because they've never had one, really.  Niedermayer scored from the back end but he was a different sort of player.  I look at some of what Gelinas does and I see Subban.  I don't want to give that possibility up, not for some 2nd line guy.  There's of course a strong chance that Gelinas will remain a 3rd pairing/fringe NHLer because he can't get his D game sorted out, and this post could look very foolish, but I just can't give that up.

 

Merrill's value got hurt by that Michigan incident - regardless, he came up and just didn't look out of place.  He's not going to score a ton but I think he could be a very effective D for the next decade - think Paul Martin.  And there's a slim chance that he becomes an elite defensive D with some offense to him.  I don't want to give that up especially because I think he'd be the least valuable of the 3 - I can't imagine GMs think particularly highly of him, but I do.

 

And then there's Larsson.  Him I would give up - I like him a lot and think he could be very good, but I imagine he has more value than the other two.  But he's still just 21 going on 22.  I'd want to get a 1st line forward back for him but I don't think that's possible.  I wouldn't give him up for any of the players sundstrom mentioned, or for players on that level.

 

I think waiting a year could be a good idea.  Severson will be more a known quantity.  Gelinas will demonstrate whether he can handle being an everyday D.  Larsson and Merrill should take steps forward or to the side.  NJ will have a better sense of what all these guys are, and they'll be able to make the right move with one of them.

 

Interesting, the only one I'd "give up on" now is Gelinas, but obviously that's because I don't see the same thing as you. I know you referenced one of his zone entries way back when, but I don't see the same Subban-esque tendencies as you. Usually I'm all for skill and high risk, but in this case I think the chance of you fooling some team* into thinking he's a sure-fire top tier offensive defenseman is greater than him figuring out the defensive zone. 

 

* is also why I'd be calling Toronto like crazy about every offensively talented player they have. 


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#32 sundstrom

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 11:56 AM

if toronto wants gelinas for kadri - you have to do that, i think.


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#33 Triumph

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 12:16 PM

if toronto wants gelinas for kadri - you have to do that, i think.

 

Of course, but I think if Pittsburgh wants Gelinas for Crosby, you do that too, and both are equally likely.


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#34 sundstrom

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 12:22 PM

Of course, but I think if Pittsburgh wants Gelinas for Crosby, you do that too, and both are equally likely.

 

stop. this is not apples to apples here and you know it. toronto is down on kadri. the devils would have to give more sure. but would it shock you to have toronto in their infinite wisdom deal kadri for say, gelinas, matteau and ryder? perhaps they see subban for sure in gelinas where you see "maybe possibly".


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#35 Brandon

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 12:46 PM

If I had my way I want to hang on to all 3 of our young d right now, I remember hearing an interview with James Wisniewski a couple months ago and he was talking about his days in Chicago when it was him, Keith, Seabrook, and Hjalmarsson who were all coming through the minors and into the NHL, he talked about how it helped to be able to grow together as a unit and learn from each other's mistakes, if we let our young guys grow in a similar fashion who knows, maybe someday a pairing of Merrill - Larsson will have similar chemistry to that of the Keith - Seabrook pairing, it helps to let these kids grow together and I really don't want to see one or two of these guys rotting away again this season in favor of Salvador and Harrold.

 

Having said all of that however, if I had to pick one guy to trade it would be Gelinas. Gelinas could turn out to be PK Subban, or he could turn out to be Marc-Andre Bergeron, there's a lot of uncertainty there and if a trade can come along that's something like Gelinas+ for Kadri, it needs to be at least considered.


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#36 Triumph

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 01:08 PM

stop. this is not apples to apples here and you know it. toronto is down on kadri. the devils would have to give more sure. but would it shock you to have toronto in their infinite wisdom deal kadri for say, gelinas, matteau and ryder? perhaps they see subban for sure in gelinas where you see "maybe possibly".

 

Yes, that would shock me.  It would be absolutely shocking.  Toronto has enough offensive D right now with Franson, Gardiner, Rielly, and even Phaneuf.  They do not need another one.


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#37 RizzMB30

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 01:12 PM

Yes, that would shock me.  It would be absolutely shocking.  Toronto has enough offensive D right now with Franson, Gardiner, Rielly, and even Phaneuf.  They do not need another one.

If Montreal can't get Subban signed up, I feel like they would be salivating over a French Canadian offensive minded defenseman such as Gelinas.  Markov is likely on the way out and losing Subban on defense would really hurt. 

I could see them as partners, as I would like to have a Gallagher or Galchenyuk, or a Pacieoretty.


Edited by RizzMB30, 06 June 2014 - 01:14 PM.

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#38 Brandon

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 01:20 PM

If Montreal can't get Subban signed up, I feel like they would be salivating over a French Canadian offensive minded defenseman such as Gelinas.  Markov is likely on the way out and losing Subban on defense would really hurt. 

I could see them as partners, as I would like to have a Gallagher or Galchenyuk, or a Pacieoretty.

Well Pacioretty put up 39 goals this year, he's not going anywhere. A lot of players that I would be interested in from Montreal are too valuable to pick up with a player like Gelinas, i.e. Galchenyuk, Gallagher, Desharnais, so the only realistic forward I could see would be Eller and I'm not crazy about Lars Eller.


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#39 CarpathianForest

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 01:24 PM

The guys you just named (aside from maybe Moulson and Vrbata) are a whole lotta meh. You don't get young (key word here: YOUNG) first line guys in free agency. You have to trade for high-end talent like that. And forget Vanek, he isn't coming here and he'll be ridiculously overpaid.

 

That's a bunch of horsesh!t. There is still some good talent on that list. I wouldn't mind having one of Jokinen or Michalek on this team.


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#40 MadDog2020

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 02:05 PM

That's a bunch of horsesh!t. There is still some good talent on that list. I wouldn't mind having one of Jokinen or Michalek on this team.

I could live with Michalek, but Jokinen? No thanks. The free agents that are available are underwhelming this year. I could see Lou adding one winger through FA and going after Stastny, but to get the type scorer of guy we need we'll need to make a trade.

Edited by MadDog2020, 06 June 2014 - 02:07 PM.

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