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I Have No Idea What I'm Talking About


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#41 Triumph

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 10:55 AM

Scoring 48 goals was the worst thing that happened to Gio. He was a real pain in the ass to play against, camping out in front, driving the net, etc. It wasn't until after that season that he would take pretty weak, clarkson esqe shots when gaining the zone

 

I don't really buy this at all.  His shot rate stayed pretty similar when you figure he wasn't playing a ton on the PP in 03 or 04.  You just noticed more of those shots because Gionta was the team's top RW instead of being just another guy.  You're going to tell me that in 2003-04 when he played barely any time at all on the PP and he averaged 9.44 shots/60 minutes that he wasn't creating tons of crest killers then?  I don't believe it.  What changed is your expectations for him.

 

He had two other seasons where he had .4 goals per game after his 48 goal season.  It was clearly a fluke season built on the preponderance of power plays and a healthy dose of shooting luck, but he's still 50th in goals scored since 2006-07.  That contract didn't work out too bad for Montreal all things considered - I'm hoping the Cammalleri deal can have similar returns (and yes I recognize the Gionta deal was bigger because it was on a smaller cap).


Edited by Triumph, 30 July 2014 - 10:57 AM.

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#42 Devil Dan 56

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 11:01 AM

let's not lol @ let's forget results. When you gauge/compare things based in 2 different "scenarios" you can't compare results directly, it's unfair and pretty common sense. Everything is not in black and white. 

 

All i stated is that we ALL know how Lou deals with UFAs, some agree with it, some doesn't.

 

Just pointing out it's a bit ridiculous when people were saying they were worried Lou might wait last minute with Cory (which was totally fair since thats what he did 97% of his career) then someone throw a "yeah keep ignoring that he signed Zajac a year before!" like the person is crazy to think that Lou might actually wait last minute, using a very very rare and isolated signing to make a case.

 

So call me crazy but yes, i do think you can't compare results from when we had a super solid squad guaranteed to be contenders years after year with no salary cap and all that sh!t and the situation the team is in right now. We're really not as attractive as we were, to get guys we have to overpay or get guys who have something to prove or want lots of ice time they wouldnt get somewhere else.

 

If we can;t compare results from back then with now, then why is it ok to say that's how Lou has done things forever? You can't have it both ways. You can't say "Lou has done this forever", then get mad when people point out that it worked back then, then say "well Lou does it now" and then get mad when people point to recent examples (Zajac, Schneider) which show that he doesn't if he can help it. Other than Zach, what major free agent did the Devils lose that didn't either get more than the Devils could or would offer or have an outside reason to leave?

 

Yes, Lou likes to negotiate at the end of the season (which is his preferred strategy) but with certain players, he's talked during the season (Stevens, Brodeur, and Zach who said himself that Lou didn't wait too long)


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#43 Triumph

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 11:20 AM

If we can;t compare results from back then with now, then why is it ok to say that's how Lou has done things forever? You can't have it both ways. You can't say "Lou has done this forever", then get mad when people point out that it worked back then, then say "well Lou does it now" and then get mad when people point to recent examples (Zajac, Schneider) which show that he doesn't if he can help it. Other than Zach, what major free agent did the Devils lose that didn't either get more than the Devils could or would offer or have an outside reason to leave?

 

Yes, Lou likes to negotiate at the end of the season (which is his preferred strategy) but with certain players, he's talked during the season (Stevens, Brodeur, and Zach who said himself that Lou didn't wait too long)

 

I think we'd think differently about this had he been able to negotiate a deal with Elias early.  But given that Elias's career was possibly over in 2005 and that the cap number was vital to what number the Devils could ultimately offer Patrik once everything got settled, he had to wait.  It's obvious now from Zajac and Schneider that Lou is willing to deal with players a year early, but again, it's also up to the player.  I don't think Gomez would've signed a long-term deal in 2006 no matter what he was offered (and indeed, the Devils really couldn't offer much).


Edited by Triumph, 30 July 2014 - 11:22 AM.

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#44 Zubie#8

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 11:43 AM

SD, you say NJ isn't desirable to free agents unless we have to overpay for free agents. Thats a contradiction. That's what free agency is, if you want free agents you have to pay a little more.
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#45 DevsMan84

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 11:51 AM

SD, you say NJ isn't desirable to free agents unless we have to overpay for free agents. Thats a contradiction. That's what free agency is, if you want free agents you have to pay a little more.

 

Not always.  Vanek and Boyle took less money to play somewhere else when the Islanders offered more.

 

Money talks, but there are other factors in as well.  I have to admit the part I agree with SD on is that NJ isn't as attractive of a place to be in as they once were.  The ownership situation has been fixed but missing the playoffs 3 of the last 4 years and playing in the shadow of a couple big market teams (Rags and Flyers) are things that players must consider.  Speaking on the last part I know Marty and a few hours have openly said they enjoyed the relative normalcy of their lives being in NJ but there are plenty of players who find the allure of bigger cities too much to pass up.


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#46 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 11:52 AM

SD, you say NJ isn't desirable to free agents unless we have to overpay for free agents. Thats a contradiction. That's what free agency is, if you want free agents you have to pay a little more.

 

I think he's implying that no outside UFAs are willing to take discounts to come here, and that NJ had to overpay even more than some other teams might, but in reality, how many guys take serious discounts to go to a certain team?  Even guys like Clarkson and Parise, who "went home", didn't exactly leave lots of coin on the table to do that. 


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#47 Triumph

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 12:07 PM

I was going to argue that yeah, SD's got a point - the Devils would never get a guy like Brad Richards to sign here for $2M.  But then I thought of Jagr and Zidlicky and how they are playing for a combined $9.5M with some of that in bonuses and I reversed my position somewhat.

 

I don't think the Devils as a free agent destination are any more or less desirable than they ever were.  Did Rolston take less to come back?  Did Kovalchuk take less?  How about Dainius Zubrus?  Or before that - did Scott Stevens or Martin Brodeur really sign for significantly below-market?

 

EDIT:  Eh, I guess Brodeur did, he probably could've gotten $7M on the open market in 2006 had he made it there.  Still, he signed a 6 year contract when he was 34 - that deal would've been looked at as insane when it was signed.


Edited by Triumph, 30 July 2014 - 12:12 PM.

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#48 Zubie#8

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 12:18 PM

You guys are nitpicking here. Of course there are individual cases here and there of players taking pay cuts to stay with or go to a team. Hell as Tri said Marty and Zid took less to stay here. But overall free agents will always get overpaid by all the teams in the league. It's the nature of the beast. You say Vanek to Minny is a discount but Minny had to throw massive contracts at Parise and Suter. You say Boyle is a discount but a few years ago they threw a massive contract at Richards. Every team will have massive contracts, overpayments and player discounts over the years. NJ isn't some barren wasteland like many people portray it as.

Edit: is it training camp yet? Tis the summer of beating dead horses.

Edited by Zubie#8, 30 July 2014 - 12:36 PM.

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#49 Zubie#8

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 06:02 PM

Add Greene as another Devil who could have easily gotten more on the open market.


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