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Is tanking the right move?


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#21 Lateralous

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Posted Yesterday, 04:32 PM

We are already tanking. We just aren't doing it intentionally like other teams have in the past (Oilers, Blackhawks, Pens).

 

Exactly and I think this is the best possible scenario for this team.   I think it's a slippery slope for teams who intentionally tear it down and develop a losing culture like the Oilers and previous versions of the Panthers.   On the other hand, if this poorly constructed NJ team Is still going out there with the expectation of winning, yet is just not good enough, especially while decimated by injuries, I think that sets us up pretty well for a 2-3 year re-tool around a core of Henrique, Schneider, the young defense and hopefully a few high end assets we can pick up through the draft.  Cammalleri and Zajac are also two vets that we already have on long contracts that I think would be good to keep around to teach the young guys how to become professionals who will want to start winning again ASAP.     


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#22 sundstrom

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Posted Yesterday, 04:58 PM

Tanking is just different here. What is the definition of tanking?

 

Lou tried to put together a solid squad this season and everything blew up. Is that tanking?

 

The players are trying to win, Pete is icing the best line up he can every night. Is that tanking?

 

Tanking is a concept that really doesn't happen. 

 

Now if we want to trade our pieces at the deadline (or a little before it) and gets some value back for Free Agents - that's not tanking either. That's prepping for the future.

 

Tell that to the Sixers that are intentionally putting up the worst possible team with the intention of losing.

 

It can and does happen, but that's not what the Devils are doing.

 

If, in the next month, they deal zidlicky, ryder, jagr, and gomez and are just putting any albany guy they can find, that would be tanking.


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#23 devlman

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Posted Yesterday, 05:09 PM

Isnt there already a thread for this?


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#24 Triumph

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Posted Yesterday, 06:22 PM

Tanking would not be trading all their impending UFAs.  It would be trading all those guys, sending Kinkaid back to Albany, and having Clemmensen split games with Schneider.  Holding core guys out with minor injuries.  At bottom, it's intentionally trying to lose games without being that obvious about it.  And no, it's not the right move, for a myriad of reasons, and ethics isn't one of them.  It's just not a smart move.


Edited by Triumph, Yesterday, 06:24 PM.

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#25 EdgeControl

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Posted Yesterday, 06:55 PM

Tanking would not be trading all their impending UFAs.  It would be trading all those guys, sending Kinkaid back to Albany, and having Clemmensen split games with Schneider.  Holding core guys out with minor injuries.  At bottom, it's intentionally trying to lose games without being that obvious about it.  And no, it's not the right move, for a myriad of reasons, and ethics isn't one of them.  It's just not a smart move.

you are going to lose/not resign many of them next year and again most of them have fewer than three years left in the tank (no pun) anyway.  who's value is going higher at the deadline than it is right now? (elias is not part of the equation) at least move an entire line, and bring up the kids.  I dont see a myriad of reasons not to.


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#26 mfitz804

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Posted Yesterday, 07:23 PM

Personally, I consider this potential move of Mark Fraser taking Severson's spot due to injury, and some of the questionable call-ups (Sestito, Sislo) tanking. Lou knows what he's doing, not making a move the rest of the season. We have a BAD team.


But that's the same kind of crap that happened last year, when we certainly were not "tanking".

Personally, I don't think there is any way LL goes along with any kind of tanking plan.
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#27 CarpathianForest

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Posted Yesterday, 09:44 PM

But that's the same kind of crap that happened last year, when we certainly were not "tanking".

Personally, I don't think there is any way LL goes along with any kind of tanking plan.

 

Lou doesn't have to actively tank. With the lineup we have we'll still end up in the basement.


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#28 Jerzey Devil

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Posted Yesterday, 09:51 PM

Let's just hope he doesn't do something like trade assets for another vet.
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#29 mfitz804

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Posted Yesterday, 10:14 PM

Lou doesn't have to actively tank. With the lineup we have we'll still end up in the basement.


Oh, I agree totally. But that's "sucking" not "tanking". We may well get a very high draft pick by our natural sucktitude.
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#30 Daniel

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Posted Today, 12:00 AM

Tanking would not be trading all their impending UFAs. It would be trading all those guys, sending Kinkaid back to Albany, and having Clemmensen split games with Schneider. Holding core guys out with minor injuries. At bottom, it's intentionally trying to lose games without being that obvious about it. And no, it's not the right move, for a myriad of reasons, and ethics isn't one of them. It's just not a smart move.


If the end result is McDavid or Eichel, why is it not smart?


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#31 hystyk28

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Posted Today, 12:25 AM

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#32 Chimaira_Devil_#9

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Posted Today, 04:17 AM

I posed this question earlier - but what DO the Devils stand for at this point?

The same thing we always have. Playing for the badge on the front. And being a team that plays hard and works hard. And a team that treats people the right way and does things professionally.

That's my interpretation.

This current group doesn't play as well as others , and they don't have the skill of teams from the past. But they still put the jersey on every night. They still compete for the badge on the front and not the name on the back, and I still want to see them try.

Having an identity does not come down to how successful you are on the ice. If you happy to see our team intentionally under perform and piss on the legacy of the team and what the badge means then I find that quite sad.

Edited by Chimaira_Devil_#9, Today, 04:18 AM.

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#33 BostonNala370

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Posted Today, 06:42 AM

The same thing we always have. Playing for the badge on the front. And being a team that plays hard and works hard. And a team that treats people the right way and does things professionally.
That's my interpretation.
This current group doesn't play as well as others , and they don't have the skill of teams from the past. But they still put the jersey on every night. They still compete for the badge on the front and not the name on the back, and I still want to see them try.
Having an identity does not come down to how successful you are on the ice. If you happy to see our team intentionally under perform and piss on the legacy of the team and what the badge means then I find that quite sad.



I like your interpretation.
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#34 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted Today, 07:59 AM

Tanking would not be trading all their impending UFAs.  It would be trading all those guys, sending Kinkaid back to Albany, and having Clemmensen split games with Schneider.  Holding core guys out with minor injuries.  At bottom, it's intentionally trying to lose games without being that obvious about it.  And no, it's not the right move, for a myriad of reasons, and ethics isn't one of them.  It's just not a smart move.

 

Yeah, big difference between tanking and sucking.  When you're looking for subtle (or not-so-subtle) ways to take natural sucking to a higher level, that's true tanking.

 

What some people don't realize is that players and coaches on bad teams will still be looking for jobs in the seasons to come...they want to show potential new employers that they have something to offer.  Obviously a GM or team president can make a deal with a coach behind the scenes and say "Look, we know it's going to be rough here over the next 2-3 years, but we know once we get you the pieces, you'll do the job.", but what motivation do players like Elias and Jagr have to tank?  Or for that matter, guys like Schneider, Henrique and Cammalleri?  It's easy for us to say "Tank and get some prospects," but losing for the sake of losing goes against the inherently competitive nature found within most professional athletes...and I think a lot of guys on the current roster wouldn't be too happy if Lou ever made some of the moves you allude to (which would be an obvious attempt to lose games).  Some will say "Well, these guys suck anyway, and a lot of them won't be here much longer, so who are they to be angry about anything?  If they were any good, they wouldn't be in this mess to begin with."  But even if it's not showing up in the results, guys still have pride...I don't think it's easy for them to lose, especially when it's for a future that many of them won't be around to benefit from (and that's assuming the losing will pay dividends down the line).  


Edited by Colorado Rockies 1976, Today, 07:59 AM.

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Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.
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#35 SterioDesign

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Posted Today, 08:05 AM

All i want from this team is try their best (it's not enough clearly so that's no problem) and Lou to figure out sooner than later who he wants to keep for next season and who he's willing to trade. And do it. No gambling. Not a fvcking gambling to keep players he might lose anyway to try to "stay competitive" to squeeze in the playoffs.

 

That's not tanking that's what any GM in his situation and with a team in this shape should do it's only common sense.


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#36 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted Today, 08:20 AM

All i want from this team is try their best (it's not enough clearly so that's no problem) and Lou to figure out sooner than later who he wants to keep for next season and who he's willing to trade. And do it. No gambling. Not a fvcking gambling to keep players he might lose anyway to try to "stay competitive" to squeeze in the playoffs.

 

That's not tanking that's what any GM in his situation and with a team in this shape should do it's only common sense.

 

I know you think that 2014 Lou is an idiot who can't see what's right in front of him, but I think his days of trying to keep the team afloat are over.  Long-time Devils like Elias and Zubrus can no longer do what is needed from them.  Other Band-Aid guys like Ryder flat-out didn't work out.  The team is not competitive in its current state, and there's nothing to suggest that it will improve much on that front.  This may not happen right away, but Lou will start trying to move the deadwood before the deadline...not all of it (the Devils will need some bodies to finish out the year, especially since too many of the current ones can't seem to stay on the ice consistently...here's looking at you, Mike Cammalleri), but there's no way he's not getting some of these guys off the team (even if it's for minimal returns). 

 

If some of the mid-20s non-prospects at Albany get some games up here, so be it.  But be prepared for an even higher level of ugliness.


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THE NHL MUST LOVE THE DEVILS - from who else? A RANGER fan!
[Mark Messier]: A big, bald attention whore with a stupid Easter Island-lookin face. - from who else? DaneykoIsGod!

Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.
Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime?
- Most priceless quote ever posted on a message board.

Martin Brodeur: THE MOST ALL-TIME WINS!, 12 straight seasons of 30+ wins, 3 Stanley Cups, 4 Vezina Trophies, and zero respect from too many so-called Devils "fans" who are either too young or too bandwagon to remember the much darker days of Sean Burke, Craig Billington, Bob Sauve, Alain Chevrier, and the talented but overwhelmed Chico Resch, among many others.

It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

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#37 SterioDesign

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Posted Today, 08:34 AM

I know you think that 2014 Lou is an idiot who can't see what's right in front of him, but I think his days of trying to keep the team afloat are over.  Long-time Devils like Elias and Zubrus can no longer do what is needed from them.  Other Band-Aid guys like Ryder flat-out didn't work out.  The team is not competitive in its current state, and there's nothing to suggest that it will improve much on that front.  This may not happen right away, but Lou will start trying to move the deadwood before the deadline...not all of it (the Devils will need some bodies to finish out the year, especially since too many of the current ones can't seem to stay on the ice consistently...here's looking at you, Mike Cammalleri), but there's no way he's not getting some of these guys off the team (even if it's for minimal returns). 

 

If some of the mid-20s non-prospects at Albany get some games up here, so be it.  But be prepared for an even higher level of ugliness.

 

I can take the ugliness, actually im welcoming it at this point lol

 

I could still see Lou trading a ufa for an underachieving guy with something to prove with one year left on his contract that a team want to unload to make room.


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#38 EdgeControl

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Posted Today, 08:57 AM

Yeah, big difference between tanking and sucking.  When you're looking for subtle (or not-so-subtle) ways to take natural sucking to a higher level, that's true tanking.

 

What some people don't realize is that players and coaches on bad teams will still be looking for jobs in the seasons to come...they want to show potential new employers that they have something to offer.  Obviously a GM or team president can make a deal with a coach behind the scenes and say "Look, we know it's going to be rough here over the next 2-3 years, but we know once we get you the pieces, you'll do the job.", but what motivation do players like Elias and Jagr have to tank?  Or for that matter, guys like Schneider, Henrique and Cammalleri?  It's easy for us to say "Tank and get some prospects," but losing for the sake of losing goes against the inherently competitive nature found within most professional athletes...and I think a lot of guys on the current roster wouldn't be too happy if Lou ever made some of the moves you allude to (which would be an obvious attempt to lose games).  Some will say "Well, these guys suck anyway, and a lot of them won't be here much longer, so who are they to be angry about anything?  If they were any good, they wouldn't be in this mess to begin with."  But even if it's not showing up in the results, guys still have pride...I don't think it's easy for them to lose, especially when it's for a future that many of them won't be around to benefit from (and that's assuming the losing will pay dividends down the line).  

lets get one thing straight.. in pro sports, players and coaches DONT TANK! Period!  tanking (probably a bad name to call it) is an ownership / GM decision regarding personell and their future. its taking well planned action without regard to the current here and now, for the improvement or potential improvement long term

 

its not blowing up the team, we need to field a team next year

its not intentionally losing, that doesnt happen

 

this season is over! wins are not the most important thing right now

the highest draft pick is probably top 3 of important things


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#39 BostonNala370

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Posted Today, 10:12 AM

Yeah, big difference between tanking and sucking.  When you're looking for subtle (or not-so-subtle) ways to take natural sucking to a higher level, that's true tanking.
 
What some people don't realize is that players and coaches on bad teams will still be looking for jobs in the seasons to come...they want to show potential new employers that they have something to offer.  Obviously a GM or team president can make a deal with a coach behind the scenes and say "Look, we know it's going to be rough here over the next 2-3 years, but we know once we get you the pieces, you'll do the job.", but what motivation do players like Elias and Jagr have to tank?  Or for that matter, guys like Schneider, Henrique and Cammalleri?  It's easy for us to say "Tank and get some prospects," but losing for the sake of losing goes against the inherently competitive nature found within most professional athletes...and I think a lot of guys on the current roster wouldn't be too happy if Lou ever made some of the moves you allude to (which would be an obvious attempt to lose games).  Some will say "Well, these guys suck anyway, and a lot of them won't be here much longer, so who are they to be angry about anything?  If they were any good, they wouldn't be in this mess to begin with."  But even if it's not showing up in the results, guys still have pride...I don't think it's easy for them to lose, especially when it's for a future that many of them won't be around to benefit from (and that's assuming the losing will pay dividends down the line).



Thank you very well stated.
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#40 NewarkDevil5

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Posted Today, 10:19 AM

I know you think that 2014 Lou is an idiot who can't see what's right in front of him, but I think his days of trying to keep the team afloat are over.  Long-time Devils like Elias and Zubrus can no longer do what is needed from them.  Other Band-Aid guys like Ryder flat-out didn't work out.  The team is not competitive in its current state, and there's nothing to suggest that it will improve much on that front.  This may not happen right away, but Lou will start trying to move the deadwood before the deadline...not all of it (the Devils will need some bodies to finish out the year, especially since too many of the current ones can't seem to stay on the ice consistently...here's looking at you, Mike Cammalleri), but there's no way he's not getting some of these guys off the team (even if it's for minimal returns). 

 

If some of the mid-20s non-prospects at Albany get some games up here, so be it.  But be prepared for an even higher level of ugliness.

 

You summed this up perfectly. I don't ever actually want the Devils to lose, but now every time they do its in the back of my mind that at least there's a possibility that they might be better for it.


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