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NY Post article on France/Ivory Coast


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#1 MaddDog

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Posted 13 November 2004 - 03:34 PM

I noticed this article from the NY Post today.... is it true that France is acting WITHOUT U.N. approval in this instance?? If so, why isn't the whole world protesting and yelling about what war mongers France are?? :blink: WHY are they IN the Ivory Coast while they tell us to stay out of Iraq??? Quels hypocrites is right.

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November 13, 2004 -- Quick: What Western power bypassed the U.N. recently, ignored the inter national community and launched a pre-emptive attack against the forces of a sovereign foreign government?
Why . . . France, of course.

That's right: French forces, acting unilaterally, deployed troops to strike the Ivory Coast's air force and took up strategic sites in the country's commercial center of Abidjan last Sunday.

Indeed, in what is being called a complete "overreaction," the French virtually wiped out the West African cocoa-producing nation's entire combat air fleet.

(True, that included just a few old Russian jets and some choppers. But what do you expect from the French?)

And, so far, the closest thing to WMDs that's been found is . . . chocolate. (It can lead to deadly obesity, n'est-ce pas?)

Which raises a question: Did that cowboy, Jacques Chirac, fear President Laurent Gbagbo's forces would attack Paris?

Chirac's troops rushed to war after Gbagbo's warplanes hit a French Army post in his nation. Nine French soldiers (and an American) were killed, but Ivorians are so outraged by the French "occupation," they've rioted, violently.

The irony in the strike by the French, who criticized President Bush's war against a real threat in Iraq, is, of course, hilarious. France did what it wanted (but don't expect U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan to call it "illegal").

The serious side is that France really does mean to continue its colonial influence in that part of Africa, and has essentially sided with the rebels against the government. You'd think the "world community" — and America's anti-war Left — would be up in arms.



Quels hypocrites!

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#2 Don

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Posted 13 November 2004 - 04:06 PM

"The U.N. Security Council, meeting Saturday in emergency session, condemned the initial attack on French forces as a violation of a May cease-fire agreement, and demanded the "immediate cessation" of military operations in accordance with that agreement.

France, the statement said, was authorized to use "all necessary means" to carry out that directive."

BTW - The United States is a primary member of the Security Council.

You get your news from the Post?

Edited by Don, 13 November 2004 - 04:06 PM.

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#3 Jimmy Leeds

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Posted 13 November 2004 - 04:22 PM

How long till France surrenders?
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#4 MaddDog

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Posted 13 November 2004 - 05:26 PM

"The U.N. Security Council, meeting Saturday in emergency session, condemned the initial attack on French forces as a violation of a May cease-fire agreement, and demanded the "immediate cessation" of military operations in accordance with that agreement.

France, the statement said, was authorized to use "all necessary means" to carry out that directive."

BTW - The United States is a primary member of the Security Council.

You get your news from the Post?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


In case you didn't notice, I asked if it WAS true. :angry: I didn't assume it was. I read ALL sorts of news, not just the Post.

I find it interesting that U.N. doesn't mind letting France do what they want but some select Security Council members obviously didn't want us going into Iraq. You can also argue that France has gone overboard with the force (blowing up all the helicopters/jets of their military, kiling civilians) and that is partly why there's so much violence right now in the Ivory Coast.

I DO still think La France are a bunch of hypocrites, though. WHY are they even in Ivory Coast to begin with? Oh, that's right, they invaded years ago, colonized it, took the cocoa, and caused this mess that exists. :lol:
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#5 Derek21

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Posted 13 November 2004 - 05:32 PM

"The U.N. Security Council, meeting Saturday in emergency session, condemned the initial attack on French forces as a violation of a May cease-fire agreement, and demanded the "immediate cessation" of military operations in accordance with that agreement.

France, the statement said, was authorized to use "all necessary means" to carry out that directive."

BTW - The United States is a primary member of the Security Council.

You get your news from the Post?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Why does it matter where she got the article from :rolleyes:? Because you want to defend a bunch of hypocrites?

My guess is it's true.
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#6 TK

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Posted 13 November 2004 - 05:50 PM

How long till France surrenders?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


as soon as Germany invades
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#7 Don

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Posted 13 November 2004 - 06:02 PM

"The U.N. Security Council, meeting Saturday in emergency session, condemned the initial attack on French forces as a violation of a May cease-fire agreement, and demanded the "immediate cessation" of military operations in accordance with that agreement.

France, the statement said, was authorized to use "all necessary means" to carry out that directive."

BTW - The United States is a primary member of the Security Council.

You get your news from the Post?


Why does it matter where she got the article from :rolleyes:? Because you want to defend a bunch of hypocrites?

My guess is it's true.


Your guess is that what is true?

As for me questioning the source, people all over - from the right the left, the up, the down... all poke fun at the Post's accuracy (or lack thereof).

Post cover
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#8 Derek21

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Posted 13 November 2004 - 06:38 PM

Big deal! You mocked MaddDog's post because you didn't approve of it. So, you took a shot at her because you didn't like her source. The Post is still a paper. Sure, their headlines can be outrageous. But that's mostly on the sports backpage. Not the news one. They can't take as many risks on news stories.

Maybe you should have considered that before you made your post.


And another thing... posting that stupid cover proves nothing. Papers can make mistakes. That was an early edition issue.


I get you though. Anything to defend France. When they launch an attack without U.N. approval, "it's okay in your book."

Sorry. But that does make them hypocrites.

Edited by Derek21, 13 November 2004 - 06:41 PM.

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#9 Don

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Posted 13 November 2004 - 06:58 PM

I'm not sure I get it.

There are U.N. peacekeepers and French troops in the Ivory Coast. They were attacked and are retaliating. The United Nations Security Council, INCLUDING THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, are backing their actions.

I'm not backing France. I don't know enough about the situation to back anyone. I was correcting a factual error.

Maddog posted an editorial and then went into "Quel hypocrites is right." and I posted a rebuttal article from CNN stating that France (A) were responding to attacks on themselves and the Belgians, Germans and Lebanese peacekeepers and (B) had run this by the Security Council and gotten approval for their actions. Maybe I shouldn't do this. Maybe I should let you wallow in your hatred of France. I stand corrected.

Note to self: "Never post factual corrections".
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#10 moustic

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Posted 13 November 2004 - 07:37 PM

:lol:

How long have you wait to have the pleasure to say more hatred about France ? :rofl:

France haven't done anything without UN concil decision...
All country back "us" in this sad story

they invaded years ago, colonized it, took the cocoa, and caused this mess that exists


I agree with that... but You are gifted for mix all History...
call "us" hypocrite... nevermind ! i can live with that :P

Just be stupid, insulting and brainless to speak about German invasion or french surrender... keep insulting my grand father memory, keep all that...
You don't know anything about "no- Beeeaaaautiiiiiifuuuul Land of the Free the beeeeaaaaaauuuuufiiiiifuuuull United States of aaaameerrriiiicaaaa"
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#11 TK

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Posted 13 November 2004 - 08:23 PM

Just be stupid, insulting and brainless to speak about German invasion or french surrender... keep insulting my grand father memory,


:rolleyes:
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#12 MaddDog

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Posted 14 November 2004 - 12:23 PM

France haven't done anything without UN concil decision...
All country back "us" in this sad story


So even the U.S. supported you, whereas France could NOT bother to support us in Iraq and even BACKSTABBED us on purpose (trying to bribe African nations to vote against us). I guess U.S. is nicer than France this time, eh? :D Note, I'm referring to the government, NOT the French people, so this has nothing to do with hatred for France. I don't hate France at all.


they invaded years ago, colonized it, took the cocoa, and caused this mess that exists


I agree with that... but You are gifted for mix all History...
call "us" hypocrite... nevermind ! i can live with that :P

Just be stupid, insulting and brainless to speak about German invasion or french surrender... keep insulting my grand father memory, keep all that...


I don't believe you'll see me writing about surrending or Vichy government or anything. That happened 60 or more years ago. I was more referring to MODERN DAY behavior, and France has been acting hypocritical, that's all. If U.S. had vetoed the action in Ivory Coast while we are in Iraq, then OUI, I'd say U.S. government were being hypocrites too.

I just find it amusing how sometimes Europeans/Canadians get SO upset when Americans dare to criticize their government/foreign policy, yet some Europeans or Canadians often cannot wait to critique something the U.S. does. It's like America bashing is en vogue, and everyone should join in, but America can't respond or anything?? :noclue: Frankly I think alot of us are just fed up with hearing the constant Bush hatred spew from overseas and non-stop bashing of our country, even those of us who DO NOT like Bushwhacker. It gets really tiresome and I'm quite sure you wouldn't want to be hearing about how awful and evil Chirac/France is every second too.
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#13 Don

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Posted 14 November 2004 - 01:30 PM

Well, you can't respond with false allegations. You were criticizing Frances actions with completely wrong information.

I was actually thinking much the same thing when I read this thread - some Americans are so quick to find fault with other nations, looking for reasons to dislike them, that they will grasp onto even the most transparent of lies.

And Iraq/Ivory Coast isn't a tit-for-tat.

The reasons that the U.S. put to the U.N. for invading were WMD & links to 9/11.
The reasons that France put to the U.N. for increase military intervention in Ivory Coast is because (a) the current U.N. mission to prevent civil war from breaking out required increased troops given the violence, and (b) French civilians are being targetted... French women are being beaten, raped, left for dead while French men are having their heads cut off with machettes.

The case for the Ivory Coast was so cut and dry that it took 1 day for the U.N. to give their backing to France.
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#14 MaddDog

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Posted 14 November 2004 - 02:03 PM

Well, you can't respond with false allegations. You were criticizing Frances actions with completely wrong information


Nice try, WRONG. Re-read my original post which asked if the lack of U.N. approval was true or not. Did I ASSUME it was?? NO. Where were the false allegations again?


I was actually thinking much the same thing when I read this thread - some Americans are so quick to find fault with other nations, looking for reasons to dislike them, that they will grasp onto even the most transparent of lies.


Funny, that's how alot of Americans feel about other countries. Yes, this includes DEMOCRAT friends of mine. Other nations are so quick to judge us but they don't seem to like it when we do the same to them, eh? I personally think ALL governments in all countries do things in their own self-interest, it just seems like the U.S. is about the ONLY Westernized nation that gets alot of flak for it.


The reasons that the U.S. put to the U.N. for invading were WMD & links to 9/11. The reasons that France put to the U.N. for increase military intervention in Ivory Coast is because (a) the current U.N. mission to prevent civil war from breaking out required increased troops given the violence, and (b) French civilians are being targetted... French women are being beaten, raped, left for dead while French men are having their heads cut off with machettes.



Hmm, so the U.S. government said they wanted to go into Iraq to PROTECT AMERICA and to SAVE the Iraqis from Saddam? You neglect to mention that Bush DID mention the human rights abuses as one reason to go in, he didn't just mention ONLY WMD. How is that much different from the argument above? I actually don't have any issue with U.N. approval for the Ivory Coast issue, but it's just ironic how U.S. wasn't given the same courtesy by France for obvious reasons (oil for food scandal deals).

France blows up the Ivorian air force and kills many civilians after 9 French soldiers were killed; I wonder how they'd respond if 3,000 people perished as la Tour Eiffel and le Palais de l'Elysee got vaporized??? :blink:
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#15 MaddDog

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Posted 14 November 2004 - 02:13 PM

Another article I found...... seems there is alot of concern even IN FRANCE over WHY the hell France is in Ivory Coast in the first place!!! Btw, I believe this is a Scottish newspaper, so no one can accuse me of it being Fox News. :lol:

flame away :lol:


Sunday Herald - 14 November 2004

With nine soldiers dead and a former colony in chaos, the French have one simple question. Why? Hugh Schofield in Paris reports

Last Wednesday, on the the eve of Armistice Day, President Jacques Chirac presided over a moving ceremony in Les Invalides, the hospice-cum-church-cum-museum in central Paris which is the French military’s hallowed sanctum.

Nine coffins draped in the tricolour were carried from the 17th-century basilica – the last resting place of the emperor Napoleon – into the courtyard of the armed forces museum, where in the chill late autumn dusk the president delivered a eulogy to the men killed in the army’s biggest foreign disaster since Beirut in 1983.

“Nine soldiers fell on the field of honour. They fell far from their homeland, far from their families, as they interposed themselves to defend the rule of law and ensure security in a country that is our friend. What they did deserves our admiration and gratitude. We owe them respect and thanks,” Chirac told weeping relatives in an address that was carried live across the nation on state television.

The French president is at his best when he is articulating the mood of the nation and his expressions of solidarity no doubt did much to bind the wounds of the bereaved. But for many in France, the real questions remained unanswered. What were the nine soldiers doing in Ivory Coast in the first place? And what in fact did they die for? At the end of a dramatic week which has seen the Ivorian air-force destroyed on the ground by French Mirages, machete-wielding mobs baying for French blood, French troops patrolling the streets of Abidjan, several documented rapes and the evacuation of thousands of European nationals – nobody was any the wiser: what exactly is French policy to the former jewel in its colonial crown?

It was not supposed to have been like this. Five or so years ago the last Socialist government – but with the full support of the Gaullist Chirac – exercised a U-turn in policy to Africa.

Gone, supposedly, were the days of sending in the troops to prop up dubious dictators with dubious financial links to political parties in Paris. “Francafrique,” the network of interests and collusions devised under Charles de Gaulle’s continental fixer Jacques Foccart, was a dis credited anachronism, and instead came in notions of accountability and co- operation on the road to democratic reform.

The coup attempt in Ivory Coast in September 2002 was a case study. In the old days, Paris would have sent in a few Foreign Legion troop- transporters from Chad to back up President Laurent Gbagbo, who was, after all, chosen in what was claimed to be a democratic election. Instead France decided that the rebels under Guillaume Sorro had a point.

Gbagbo was engaged in a policy of ethnic favouritism which was indefensible, Chirac decided, so he should be persuaded to give ground. French policy forced through the Marcoussis Accords of January 2003 under which the two sides were supposed to embark on national reconciliation, and in the meantime thousands of French troops “interposed them selves” – in Chirac’s words – to patrol the shaky ceasefire line.

Almost two years later and the wheel seems to have come full circle. A phone call from the Élysée Palace in the early afternoon of Saturday November 6 was all it took to put France straight back into interventionist mode.

In an air-raid conducted by Gbgabo’s two newly acquired Sukhoi-25 Frogfoot fighter-bombers, eight French troops and an American civilian had been killed at an encampment in the rebel-held town of Bouake. A ninth later died. French intelligence indicated the attack was deliberate. The jets, which had been bombing rebel targets for two days, were piloted by mercenaries from Belarus, and made several passes over the encampment before striking. French flags and markings were everywhere.

Within two hours three Mirage jets from a French base in Chad had destroyed the two Sukhoi-25s on the ground at the airport of the capital Yamoussoukro. Five attack helicopters were also wrecked, as well as Gbagbo’s own personal helicopter which, in a supreme indignity, was struck in the gardens of the presidential palace.

After that came the descent into chaos – the riots and looting in Abidjan, the French reinforcements, the evacuations and the stories now emerging of rape and brutality. Only by the end of last week was there a semblance of normality returning in Abidjan – but by every account it was a frail apparition. The truth is that more than 40 years after independence the French are loathed in Ivory Coast today far more than they ever were in colonial days. The blame may lay squarely with an ignoble search for scapegoats in another failed African nation-state, but a triumph for French foreign policy it certainly isn’t.

As many commentators are pointing out in Paris, France’s post-Francafrique doctrine badly needs definition. At the moment it is a wandering compass-needle of engagement and non-engagement, whose precise position at any given moment is the sole prerogative of the head of state.

With his overarching powers in foreign policy, it was Chirac who determined that 4000 French troops should take part in Operation Unicorn to separate the warring parties. It was a genuine sign of French commitment to its former colony, even though it left the troops dangerously exposed. And then it was Chirac who single-handedly decided it was time for US-style unilateral military intervention a week ago. Again, it was a genuine expression of anger and no doubt fully justifiable, but it left the troops even more exposed.

“Hardly anyone here in France understands what our policies in Ivory Coast are supposed to be,” Le Figaro newspaper argued last week. “Do we want to re-occupy to impose democracy? Do we just want to consolidate the ceasefire line? Or is it merely a question of ‘defending French interests’? Nobody knows.”

Families of the nine soldiers who died “ensuring security in a country that is our friend” are entitled to answers to these questions, though they are unlikely to get them. Because of the president’s foreign policy domaine reservé, such matters are rarely debated in parliament. Instead the French have to live with Chirac’s occasional gnomic utterances – and his soaring panegyrics when things go fatally wrong.


http://www.sundayherald.com/45954
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#16 Don

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Posted 14 November 2004 - 03:15 PM

France blows up the Ivorian air force and kills many civilians after 9  French soldiers were killed; I wonder how they'd respond if 3,000 people perished as la Tour Eiffel and le Palais de l'Elysee got vaporized???  :blink:


Is that an insinuation that Iraq was in on 9/11?

Maybe the question is - if Ivory Coast want to have a civil war and kill everyone, maybe the French, Belgians, Germans and Lebanese should get the heck out of there and let them kill each other. I suppose the French are contributing more troops to stop the war since they have more businesses there, thus have a financial interest in keeping peace in the region.

Maybe I'm reading this all wrong, but I think the Ivory Coast government want France out as much as the rebels do. The rebels want them out because they want a war so they can overthrow the government. The government wants France out so they can crush the rebels.

As for the "wrong", yeah, right. You insinuated that it was true and even included a "Quel hypocrites" for measure. You can't whisper "There could be a" and then yell "FIRE IN THE THEATRE" and tell the cops that you said "there COULD be a fire in the theatre".
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#17 NJDevs4978

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Posted 14 November 2004 - 05:57 PM

The 'Quels Hypocrites' at the end was from the article itself. And France IS hypocrtical regardless of whether they had just cause for going into the Ivory Coast or not. They protested the US involvement in Iraq in part because of our supposed self-interest (among other things) and then it turns out they had their own self-interest in the form of sweetheart oil deals with Saddam.
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#18 Don

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Posted 14 November 2004 - 06:34 PM

No... re-read what Maddog wrote in the very first post. "Quel hypocrites is right" is by her.

You are correct... France's opposition to the war in Iraq had more to do with their fear that their access to Iraq's oil would dry up than anything else. I don't see what that has to do with the Ivory Coast.
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#19 NJDevs4978

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Posted 14 November 2004 - 06:37 PM

No I read the post, that's why I said the one at the end. She didn't interject the phrase, just agreed with it, and her reasons for agreeing with it don't neccesarily have to do with the article that she posted.
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#20 Don

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Posted 14 November 2004 - 06:40 PM

Oh, come now...

If I post an article about Patrick Roy beating his wife and I say "What an a$$hole", would you think I was saying it because he refused to play for Canada in the last Olympics?
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