Jump to content

Photo

NHL SEASON OFFICIALLY CANCELLED


  • Please log in to reply
293 replies to this topic

#101 LizDevil30

LizDevil30

    Hall of Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,761 posts

Posted 15 February 2005 - 11:26 PM

I always thought 45 mil was a practical number.
  • 0
"Why is a puck called a puck? Because dirty little bastard was taken."-New Jersey Devils Goaltender Martin Brodeur, of whom I am happy co-keeper with poohbear.
His lean, limber muscles tensed under the skin are ready to contort his body into unnatural goal stopping positions. Tara Sullivan, Bergen Record.
A person's a person, no matter how small. Horton the Elephant, "Horton Hears a Who"
NEW JERSEY home of the Devils, Giants, Jets, Red Bull, Nets and the Statue of Liberty--standing on our front porch waving to the neighbors.

#102 smelly

smelly

    All-Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,106 posts

Posted 15 February 2005 - 11:26 PM

If Bettman had any guts he would tell the union where to shove their offer and let them sit out another year or two.

This has got me completely f'n scared. The owners are caving. Bit by bit, they are caving and we're going to be in a worse mess than we started. Even at 42M, I think we are going to see the Penguins and Flames and Oilers all fall by the wayside.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


what does that tell you, looks like the they weren't as bad off as you once thought. I think Bettmans cabal has deteriorated somewhat, and pressure has been put on Goodenow as well.

did you really expect the owners to win this in a sweep?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Don't be so naive, 7. Don't you think that Bettman and his crew have known it would end up right where it is now? You have to come in low if you want to hit your target -- Negotiating 101. There will be a cap. And there will be cost certainty. And there will be a reduction in salaries. Owners 4, NHLPA 0, Goodenow gracefully retired within 12 months.
  • 0

#103 Triumph

Triumph

    A Legend

  • Mod
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 27,568 posts

Posted 15 February 2005 - 11:28 PM

Don, both proposals contain luxury tax and revenue sharing elements. The small markets are not being left out to dry and the fact is, any team that cannot afford between 25-28 million in player salaries cannot be a part of the NHL. That is simply a fact.

The small markets aren't supposed to be as competitive as the big markets. That's only possible in the NFL. This deal gives the small markets a better chance of being able to retain a stable of players. It's much better than the current CBA in that respect.

smelly, I don't think that's a fair characterization of the process. The owners clearly aren't going to break the union if they're going to win here tonight. A $45 million dollar cap is well above the $31 million where it started, and no linkage of revenue to the cap is a win for the players as well - true, it is only a win within the owners' initial framework, but a win nonetheless.

Edited by Triumph, 15 February 2005 - 11:30 PM.

  • 0

http://drivingplay.blogspot.com - The blog with three first lines
 


#104 Derek21

Derek21

    A Legend

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 17,858 posts

Posted 15 February 2005 - 11:29 PM

What about future seasons Don? Do you think if Bettman cancels it, that the two sides will still get back together and hammer out a deal right away? Of course not.

7', in Don's world, Bettman gets everything. There are no negotiations!
  • 0

"The greatest trick Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."

 

Hasan, Brian and I blog at New York Puck. Devils, Islanders, Rangers and Sabres.


#105 Don

Don

    A Legend

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,849 posts

Posted 15 February 2005 - 11:30 PM

The small markets aren't supposed to be as competitive as the big markets. 


Which is a big problem in my books. I was an Expos fan.
  • 0
"Lock'n'Load!" - Denny Crane
"Denny Crane!" - Denny Crane
"Trix are for kids!" - Denny Crane
"I hate cling-ons!" - Denny Crane

#106 devilsrule33

devilsrule33

    A Legend

  • Mod
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,005 posts

Posted 15 February 2005 - 11:31 PM

If I am the NHLPA I would be calling Bettman up later tonight with an offer around 47 million.

If Bettman says no and still says were done giving offers I can't see the NHLPA giving another offer.

If thw NHLPA offers one more offer Bettman has to start talking and not just reject and walk away.
  • 0

logokx.jpg

"The Stanley Cup has fallen from the Stars. The new millennium has its first Stanley Cup Champion, and it's the New Jersey Devils." Mike Miller calling the Devils winning the Stanley Cup.

"It goes to the captain and then there are handoffs during a skate around the ice" Mike Emrick as Scott Stevens is being presented the Stanley Cup.


#107 PeteyNice

PeteyNice

    Hall of Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,121 posts

Posted 15 February 2005 - 11:31 PM

Don't be so naive, 7.  Don't you think that Bettman and his crew have known it would end up right where it is now?  You have to come in low if you want to hit your target -- Negotiating 101.  There will be a cap.  And there will be cost certainty.  And there will be a reduction in salaries.  Owners 4, NHLPA 0, Goodenow gracefully retired within 12 months.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



In NHL parlance "cost certainty" was the link between salaries and revenue. That is off the table. Also, cap, cost certainty and reduction in salaries only adds up to 3.
  • 0
"Yo moms so fat, Russia can see her from THEIR house." -Anil Dash

Palin 2012

"Demand for Portland" -- Consumerist.com

"The New York football Giants marched into Little D and made 'America's Team' their prison bitch....[and next week the G-Men] will push the Packers up and down the frozen tundra like their own private zamboni!" -- Carl from Adult Swim

(No longer) Gotta check this every day

Living in constant fear of Fox Security

A proud member of the Reality Based Community

Official Nemesis of Triumph

"The player is fine." -- Brian Cashman

"[PeteyNice] f off!" --LOULAM1

"Petey, you're MY NEW HERO!!!" -- CRASHER

"bow chica bow wow" - RoughDraft

"I did it with panache and style, that's how I did it" - Mad Sweeney

#108 NJDevs4978

NJDevs4978

    A Legend

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 23,193 posts

Posted 15 February 2005 - 11:32 PM

You know Don it's easy for you to say shut down the season, Canadiens get ten billion hockey leagues to watch, hockey die-hards don't need the pros. For hockey fans here in the US, this is it as far as a hockey fix...what do we get hockey-wise without the NHL? An occasional college game on FSNY and a 'classic' game on FSNY or MSG...that's it.

And let's face it BOTH sides know now if they didn't before (which they should have) that a canceled season would mean irreperable harm that the NHL can't afford. What good is having their own system if there are no fans around to support it?

Edited by Hasan4978, 15 February 2005 - 11:34 PM.

  • 0
"The Devils have high standards, that's the difference. We have a standard to live up to every year, and a couple of teams in our area don't have the standards we do." - Pat Burns

The New Jersey Devils win Stanley Cups everywhere:
-NHL record for most road wins in the playoffs - 10-1 in '95 and 10-2 in '00
-NHL record for most home wins in the playoffs - 12-1 in '03

#109 smelly

smelly

    All-Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,106 posts

Posted 15 February 2005 - 11:33 PM

Don, both proposals contain luxury tax and revenue sharing elements.  The small markets are not being left out to dry and the fact is, any team that cannot afford between 25-28 million in player salaries cannot be a part of the NHL.  That is simply a fact.

The small markets aren't supposed to be as competitive as the big markets.  That's only possible in the NFL.  This deal gives the small markets a better chance of being able to retain a stable of players.  It's much better than the current CBA in that respect.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


And the fact of the matter is that that's not even possible in today's NFL, the most egalitarian league of all, given the much greater revenue-generating capabilities of the larger market franchises than their smaller brethren. The Redskins, Eagles, PAtriots and (after their new stadia are built) the Jets and Giants have much greate revenues from off-field sources (suites, marketing, advertising, etc.) than the Green Bays, Minnesotas, Tampas etc. of the world. Life isn't fair -- and Calgary is just a small cowtown (not that there is anything wrong with that).
  • 0

#110 Don

Don

    A Legend

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,849 posts

Posted 15 February 2005 - 11:33 PM

You know Don it's easy for you to say shut down the season, Canadiens get ten billion hockey leagues to watch, hockey die-hards don't need the pros.  For hockey fans  here in the US, this is it as far as a hockey fix...what do we get hockey-wise without the NHL?  An occasional college game on FSNY and a 'classic' game on FSNY or MSG...that's it.


You could have come to Albany with us! :P
  • 0
"Lock'n'Load!" - Denny Crane
"Denny Crane!" - Denny Crane
"Trix are for kids!" - Denny Crane
"I hate cling-ons!" - Denny Crane

#111 Derek21

Derek21

    A Legend

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 17,858 posts

Posted 15 February 2005 - 11:34 PM

Don, you can't compare baseball to hockey. Not if hockey gets this deal done. Payrolls aren't over $100 million apart like in baseball. And if the deal with this cap and luxury tax happens, the big market teams payrolls will pare down and not spin out of control. They'll have to watch what they spend. The playing field will be better.

I am sorry that the Expos weren't able to stay together. A lot of that though was what happened with the ownership change back in '94. Maybe things could have turned out differently. I also liked those Expos teams. It was ashame what happened.
  • 0

"The greatest trick Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."

 

Hasan, Brian and I blog at New York Puck. Devils, Islanders, Rangers and Sabres.


#112 E-Devil

E-Devil

    All-Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,251 posts

Posted 15 February 2005 - 11:34 PM

My guess is that 42M is close to what Bettman had in mind all along. It's just simple negotiating tactics, start your asking really high and move down once you see a fair negotiation in site.

I would already consider if a deal gets done that the owners already have won, they got their salary cap even if it is above what they wanted unless the news we are getting is incorrect. Or if the CBA was planning to cave into a salary cup but just wanted to hold out as long as they could to see how high Bettmen was willing to raise the cap.

As much as I wish they could have gotten this done in Summer, none of the players and owners realized how serious the otherside was and only drag everyone through the mud like they did was enough to see a deal must get done now one way or another.

Both sides owe it to the fans to just get a deal done and give us some hockey this year.

Edited by E-Devil, 15 February 2005 - 11:36 PM.

  • 0
"Playing with him now, I have an even greater respect for him," center Joe Nieuwendyk said of Stevens. "He's a true captain. He's a leader."

#113 smelly

smelly

    All-Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,106 posts

Posted 15 February 2005 - 11:37 PM

smelly, I don't think that's a fair characterization of the process. The owners clearly aren't going to break the union if they're going to win here tonight. A $45 million dollar cap is well above the $31 million where it started, and no linkage of revenue to the cap is a win for the players as well - true, it is only a win within the owners' initial framework, but a win nonetheless.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Tri, that was the dream deal, the pie in the sky -- I think you are the one who is being a little naive here. The owners knew that it would end up here -- and you never go into a negotiation without "giveaways" of apparent value to give the impression you are compromising (esp. with the possibility of NLRB review hanging over every move). EVERY step was orchestrated to get this deal and to make the union accept it by establishing a clear record of impasse (e.g., we moved off linkage, we moved up 50% on the cap level, etc., but the union still refused to negotiate). Bettman played this like a champ -- and Goodenow got played for a chump (he played a bad hand about as poorly as possible)

Edited by smelly, 15 February 2005 - 11:39 PM.

  • 0

#114 '7'

'7'

    A Legend

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,989 posts

Posted 15 February 2005 - 11:39 PM

If Bettman had any guts he would tell the union where to shove their offer and let them sit out another year or two.

This has got me completely f'n scared. The owners are caving. Bit by bit, they are caving and we're going to be in a worse mess than we started. Even at 42M, I think we are going to see the Penguins and Flames and Oilers all fall by the wayside.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


what does that tell you, looks like the they weren't as bad off as you once thought. I think Bettmans cabal has deteriorated somewhat, and pressure has been put on Goodenow as well.

did you really expect the owners to win this in a sweep?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Don't be so naive, 7. Don't you think that Bettman and his crew have known it would end up right where it is now? You have to come in low if you want to hit your target -- Negotiating 101. There will be a cap. And there will be cost certainty. And there will be a reduction in salaries. Owners 4, NHLPA 0, Goodenow gracefully retired within 12 months.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


the fact they moved the cap from 32 million to let's say 45(should get it done) they gave up linkage, and the CBA itself is only 6 years.

45 is a loose cap, barely a cap at all. You don't think Bettman was pressured as well. They made concessions. And it was the right thing to do. That's why Don is pissed, but that's negotiations.

we'll see how it works, the war chests will be built up in 4 years, and we may yet end up with a smaller league with no cap by 2011.
  • 0
^7^ is just defending his sport sheeps.. as Alcibiades the exiled Athenian rationalizes in his speech to the enemy Spartans, he wants to take revenge on Athens because he loves it and can't stand to see the state it's in now - Triumph
Posted Image Posted Image

#115 smelly

smelly

    All-Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,106 posts

Posted 15 February 2005 - 11:41 PM

we'll see how it works, the war chests will be built up in 4 years, and we may yet end up with a smaller league with no cap by 2011.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[/quote]

That will never happen. The union will take a lower cap before it voluntarily accepts a reduction in the number of jobs. There are a lot more Turner Stevensons in the NHLPA that Vincent Lecavliers . . .

Edited by smelly, 15 February 2005 - 11:42 PM.

  • 0

#116 NJDevs4978

NJDevs4978

    A Legend

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 23,193 posts

Posted 15 February 2005 - 11:43 PM

You know Don it's easy for you to say shut down the season, Canadiens get ten billion hockey leagues to watch, hockey die-hards don't need the pros. For hockey fans here in the US, this is it as far as a hockey fix...what do we get hockey-wise without the NHL? An occasional college game on FSNY and a 'classic' game on FSNY or MSG...that's it.


You could have come to Albany with us! :P

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


That wasn't hockey, that was a combination of the Bad News Bears on skates and Slapshot in the flesh :lol:
  • 0
"The Devils have high standards, that's the difference. We have a standard to live up to every year, and a couple of teams in our area don't have the standards we do." - Pat Burns

The New Jersey Devils win Stanley Cups everywhere:
-NHL record for most road wins in the playoffs - 10-1 in '95 and 10-2 in '00
-NHL record for most home wins in the playoffs - 12-1 in '03

#117 Don

Don

    A Legend

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,849 posts

Posted 15 February 2005 - 11:45 PM

You could have come to Albany with us! :P


That wasn't hockey, that was a combination of the Bad News Bears on skates and Slapshot in the flesh :lol:


Touch, my friend... touch. :)

Edited by Don, 15 February 2005 - 11:45 PM.

  • 0
"Lock'n'Load!" - Denny Crane
"Denny Crane!" - Denny Crane
"Trix are for kids!" - Denny Crane
"I hate cling-ons!" - Denny Crane

#118 '7'

'7'

    A Legend

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,989 posts

Posted 15 February 2005 - 11:45 PM

[quote name='smelly' date='Feb 15 2005, 11:41 PM']
[quote name=''7'' date='Feb 15 2005, 11:39 PM']
[quote name='smelly' date='Feb 15 2005, 11:26 PM'][quote name=''7'' date='Feb 15 2005, 11:24 PM'][quote name='Don' date='Feb 15 2005, 11:16 PM']If Bettman had any guts he would tell the union where to shove their offer and let them sit out another year or two.

This has got me completely f'n scared. The owners are caving. Bit by bit, they are caving and we're going to be in a worse mess than we started. Even at 42M, I



we'll see how it works, the war chests will be built up in 4 years, and we may yet end up with a smaller league with no cap by 2011.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[/quote]

That will never happen. The union will take a lower cap before it voluntarily accepts a reduction in the number of jobs. There are a lot more Turner Stevensons in the NHLPA that Vincent Lecavliers . . .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[/quote]

Bettman moving off 32 million to 42 million means that he's finally budged off the "save all 30" argument. Because some won't survive in the next 6 years, and they shouldn't survive if they can't make it under these economic conditions. I guess the medium to big market owners finally said screw nashville, let's get this done.

the reduction won't be immediate though, those 700+ jobs won't dissapear overnight.

the 24% rollback is a victory for bettman
no linkage is a victory for the players
6 year cba is a victory for the players
a potential 45 mil "cap" is a victory for the players, if it happens, considering they started at 28 or 32 mil. bettman can call it a cap and declare victory, fine let him. Let it exist as an illusion of a cap. maybe you can call it a draw
payroll taxe with some teeth is a victory for bettman

seems reasonable, let's play

Edited by '7', 15 February 2005 - 11:51 PM.

  • 0
^7^ is just defending his sport sheeps.. as Alcibiades the exiled Athenian rationalizes in his speech to the enemy Spartans, he wants to take revenge on Athens because he loves it and can't stand to see the state it's in now - Triumph
Posted Image Posted Image

#119 Derek21

Derek21

    A Legend

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 17,858 posts

Posted 15 February 2005 - 11:46 PM

If they had juniors nearby, I'd go watch. Don is lucky in that aspect. There's also no great college hockey programs in this area.
  • 0

"The greatest trick Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."

 

Hasan, Brian and I blog at New York Puck. Devils, Islanders, Rangers and Sabres.


#120 sundstrom

sundstrom

    Hall of Famer

  • Mod
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,258 posts

Posted 15 February 2005 - 11:49 PM

the key to a cap around $45 million is that it keeps the 5 big spenders (Avs, Rangers, Stars, Blues, Flyers) from inflating salaries by prying away free agents and offering ridiculously high salary busting contracts. you'll see max salaries of about $5-$6 million for the elite players (right where it should be) in a sport with hockey's revenues, becuase teams can't afford to blow 20% of their payroll on one player unless they plan to be Iginla and 19 jay pandolfo's.
  • 0

"This team was never the same once we lost Patrik Sundstrom"- Lou Lamoriello


20082719943.png
_________________________________________________________________
“They’re the ones that makes it happen,” Lemaire said. “It’s not us. It’s not me. It’s not the other guy. It’s not the guy before. It’s not the guy after. It’s them. And they have to take care of business.”
-
"I guess I just miss my friend" (#28)





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users