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#61 '7'

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Posted 27 November 2005 - 09:18 PM

Well...enough people bitched for the shoot out and now we have it for at least one season.

I love it.  :boogie:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


no, I think you're buying bettmans spin, there was never any demand for the shootout ever, by fans, players, or anybody involved in the game. The league told us that we wanted it, then told us how great it was.
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^7^ is just defending his sport sheeps.. as Alcibiades the exiled Athenian rationalizes in his speech to the enemy Spartans, he wants to take revenge on Athens because he loves it and can't stand to see the state it's in now - Triumph
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#62 '7'

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Posted 27 November 2005 - 09:20 PM

Well lets name all these memorable ties...and again, in your world there wont be any exciting shootouts?  :noclue:

What if the Devils from this point on go 7-1 in shootouts and make the playoffs and then win the Cup because of the shootout rule?  Will you be whistling a different tune at that point? Hmmm...

Bottom line:  The good teams will get in the playoffs.  The good teams wont.  Period.  If for example the Sabres fall 1 point short because they lost a shootout the last week of the season, oh well.  You can trace back over several other games throughout a season to point out why a team misses the playoffs etc.

By no means am I saying i LOVE the shootout rule.  There are drawbacks to any system.  For example, on Thanksgiving Eve, the Sabres won a shootout at the Island over the Isles.  And when the shootout started, I thought to myself, "damn, the Sabres have completely outplayed the Isles for the last 10 minutes of the 3rd and the 5 minute OT, if the Isles win the shootout its almost a shame"...in situations like that, I definately see your point.

There is no perfect system.  But what the NHL has generated here with the shootout is good debates, and some PR for the league.  Like it or not, for the regular season, I believe it helps the NHL.  Dont love it, but it helps.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


well you're almost right, usually things balance out.

but no ther sport alters the game so radically just for PR.

and I'll never be pro shootout, even if the Devils benefit from it.
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^7^ is just defending his sport sheeps.. as Alcibiades the exiled Athenian rationalizes in his speech to the enemy Spartans, he wants to take revenge on Athens because he loves it and can't stand to see the state it's in now - Triumph
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#63 NJDevs4978

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Posted 27 November 2005 - 09:38 PM

[quote name='LOTCB' date='Nov 27 2005, 09:00 PM']What if the Devils from this point on go 7-1 in shootouts and make the playoffs and then win the Cup because of the shootout rule?

Edited by Hasan4978, 27 November 2005 - 09:41 PM.

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#64 NJDevs4978

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Posted 27 November 2005 - 09:49 PM

[quote name='Triumph' date='Nov 27 2005, 08:42 PM']It's so silly that Olympic medals have been won and lost on them.

You're winning the logical argument but failing to provide alternatives.

Edited by Hasan4978, 27 November 2005 - 09:50 PM.

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-NHL record for most home wins in the playoffs - 12-1 in '03

#65 NJD Jester

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Posted 27 November 2005 - 10:16 PM

Well people may stand during the shootout because everyone knows it'll be the end of the game, but saying sellout crowds implies people are going to the games partly to see the shootout, which isn't the case.  You can't quantify this but I don't think one person is going to buy a ticket to an NHL game because of the 5-10% possibility of seeing a shootout, they'll buy a ticket because of the product itself being good which the NHL did do a lot to ensure it was better in the regular game.

And you and Clown saying people were bored to death by tie games probably applied a lot before the 4-on-4, a lot of overtimes in recent years have been exciting and had wild finishes because of that, even if they ended up in ties.  But if we're going to do away with ties, why even bother to have a point system anymore?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Great post, Has. So great that I quoted the whole damn thing!

Someone asked for an "alternative" to the shootout. Judging by the number of OT wins we've had in the 4-on-4 -- with the increased penalty calls and wide-open style of the "new" NHL -- I would have liked to seen a sudden death 4-on-4 format instead of the shootout.

And honestly, why isn't sudden death the answer? Because of TV? Never hurt baseball. Because of the rigorous travel schedule and the physical demand on the players? Puh-lease...since when do we coddle hockey players? If anything, fatigue would mandate a winner earlier than later.

And this argument about how the fans stand up and cheer for the shootout as an indication of its popularity: by that measure, shouldn't there be a fight every five minutes?

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#66 LOTCB

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Posted 27 November 2005 - 10:21 PM

And you and Clown saying people were bored to death by tie games probably applied a lot before the 4-on-4, a lot of overtimes in recent years have been exciting and had wild finishes because of that, even if they ended up in ties.  But if we're going to do away with ties, why even bother to have a point system anymore?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



I never said people were "bored to death" by ties, sure some OT sessions can be exciting, they can now as well...even with the shootout.

Like I said before, I do not want to be labeled as a fan who loves the shootout...I think its ok, I really dont love it, but I dont totally dislike it either, Im willing to give it more then 2 months to decide whether it is good or bad for the league.
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#67 Triumph

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Posted 27 November 2005 - 10:27 PM

Great post, Has. So great that I quoted the whole damn thing!

Someone asked for an "alternative" to the shootout. Judging by the number of OT wins we've had in the 4-on-4 -- with the increased penalty calls and wide-open style of the "new" NHL -- I would have liked to seen a sudden death 4-on-4 format instead of the shootout.

And honestly, why isn't sudden death the answer? Because of TV? Never hurt baseball. Because of the rigorous travel schedule and the physical demand on the players? Puh-lease...since when do we coddle hockey players? If anything, fatigue would mandate a winner earlier than later.

And this argument about how the fans stand up and cheer for the shootout as an indication of its popularity: by that measure, shouldn't there be a fight every five minutes?

<JESTER>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Sudden death is unfeasible because of difficult travel schedules and the necessity of re-Zamboni-ing the ice after the 3rd period, causing a 15 minute delay to the beginning of overtime. Who is going to wait 15 minutes to see that extra period? I hate the fact that there are two intermissions - now you're going to make me sit through a third one?

And then you're going to expect me to pay full price for a home ticket when my team has just played a triple overtime game in Carolina and flew home at 5 AM to play today?

The NHL will *never* go to sudden death overtime in the regular season. It would dilute the best part of playoff hockey and make things even more difficult on the players, coaches, and everyone else to bring us the NHL as we know it. I'm willing to give you 10-1 on a $10 bet that the NHL does not institute unlimited sudden death overtime by 2015. It will never happen - no one in the media, the players, or the coaches has suggested such a thing.
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#68 LOTCB

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Posted 27 November 2005 - 10:27 PM

And honestly, why isn't sudden death the answer? Because of TV? Never hurt baseball. Because of the rigorous travel schedule and the physical demand on the players? Puh-lease...since when do we coddle hockey players? If anything, fatigue would mandate a winner earlier than later.
<JESTER>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Baseball is the only major sport that does not have a clock, to me its unfair to use baseball in this converstation for that reason, just my opinion.

And the schedules right now IMO are a joke, too many 3 game in 4 night stretches...I havent done the research, just seems to me it happens with more regularity now then it used to, that cannot help the overall quality of the game if you ask me.
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#69 sammyk

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Posted 27 November 2005 - 10:30 PM

And the schedules right now IMO are a joke, too many 3 game in 4 night stretches...I havent done the research, just seems to me it happens with more regularity now then it used to, that cannot help the overall quality of the game if you ask me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I thought that was because of the Olympics?
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#70 NJDevs4978

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Posted 27 November 2005 - 10:31 PM

And honestly, why isn't sudden death the answer? Because of TV? Never hurt baseball. Because of the rigorous travel schedule and the physical demand on the players? Puh-lease...since when do we coddle hockey players? If anything, fatigue would mandate a winner earlier than later.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


You can't have indefinite sudden death in the regular season though, do the fans really want to stay till one in the morning to see a January weekday game decide two points? Plus there 'are' travel issues in the regular season, you could be in a different time zone the next day. At least in the playoffs you have the next day off generally. Coddling players? Please, NHL players have it much harder physically game-to-game than any of the 'four major' sports except football, which often doesn't need to worry about ties and only has 16 games compared to 82 for the NHL.

What I would do is have ten minutes of four-on-four then the shootout. People will say the ice would be choppy, okay have a mini-intermission like five minutes or however long it takes for the Zamboni to circle the ice once, then play the ten minute four-on-four then the shootout, at least shootouts would be rare enough to actually be a novelty.

Edited by Hasan4978, 27 November 2005 - 10:35 PM.

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#71 NJDevs4978

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Posted 27 November 2005 - 10:33 PM

[quote name='Triumph' date='Nov 27 2005, 10:27 PM']Sudden death is unfeasible because of difficult travel schedules and the necessity of re-Zamboni-ing the ice after the 3rd period, causing a 15 minute delay to the beginning of overtime.

Edited by Hasan4978, 27 November 2005 - 10:34 PM.

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"The Devils have high standards, that's the difference. We have a standard to live up to every year, and a couple of teams in our area don't have the standards we do." - Pat Burns

The New Jersey Devils win Stanley Cups everywhere:
-NHL record for most road wins in the playoffs - 10-1 in '95 and 10-2 in '00
-NHL record for most home wins in the playoffs - 12-1 in '03

#72 Triumph

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Posted 27 November 2005 - 10:35 PM

Well you don't 'need' 15 minutes, they often have promos on the ice at the start of intermission before the Zambonis come out and the Zambonis are done well before the period actually starts.  Maybe 7 minutes, 10 at most you'd need for JUST the Zambonis and nothing else.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Don't forget that the intermission is for the players as well - that's why they still take 15 minutes in the playoffs.
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#73 NJDevs4978

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Posted 27 November 2005 - 10:37 PM

Don't forget that the intermission is for the players as well - that's why they still take 15 minutes in the playoffs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Well they 'only' take a minute or two before the four-on-four as is, why not instead of a minute break before a five-minute 4-on-4, a 7-10 minute break before a 10-minute 4-on-4?
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-NHL record for most road wins in the playoffs - 10-1 in '95 and 10-2 in '00
-NHL record for most home wins in the playoffs - 12-1 in '03

#74 NJD Jester

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Posted 27 November 2005 - 10:42 PM

You can't have indefinite sudden death in the regular season though, do the fans really want to stay till one in the morning to see a January weekday game decide two points? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


First of all, we have fans that leave before the third period starts. So the answer to that is obviously no.

Still, shouldn't it be up to the fans? I'm sure there are some people like myself that would pay for a $75 ticket and not really give a damn when the game ends if I felt like I got my money's worth.

To me, the shootout is like the difference between a corporately sponsored, prepacked concert and one that feel more improvized and organic.

I remember a No Doubt show I went to at GSAC. It was fun, great music. But there wasn't a moment I didn't feel was staged, and I new exactly how many encores they'd be playing.

Then there was this Black Crowes show I went to last month. Awesome music, really loose jam-band format, and an encore that seemed longer (and better) than the "regulation" concert.

My point is that sometimes, when the music's good, you don't mind dancing for a few extra minutes.

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#75 NJDevs4978

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Posted 27 November 2005 - 10:52 PM

First of all, we have fans that leave before the third period starts. So the answer to that is obviously no.

Still, shouldn't it be up to the fans? I'm sure there are some people like myself that would pay for a $75 ticket and not really give a damn when the game ends if I felt like I got my money's worth.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Yes there are some like you but you're in the minority. 50,000 people don't stay for all 18 innings of an extra-inning game in baseball when they have work the next day or are with kids who need to go to bed, I doubt hockey fans would stay in droves either although they do tend to be more die-hard and games are twice as important in hockey (82 hockey games compared to 162 for baseball).

You could say maybe most games would 'only' be a few extra minutes if it went to indefinite four-on-four and wouldn't go that long, I dunno; at some point fatigue would set in, open ice or not open ice and it becomes harder to score. I'd just rather not go there and there are enough reasons not to go there.

I know the shootout's not going anywhere either no matter how much you or 7 or even me (though I'm not quite as anti-shootout as you two) go on about it, so I'd settle for making it rare enough so that I don't see one every night in the highlights and one every couple weeks with the Devils.

BTW one thing that hasn't been mentioned yet, if you got sudden death four-on-four in the regular season, you open up Pandora's Box for it to be possibly used in the playoffs one day, especially with a number of Cup-clinching games having been decided past midnight ('96, '99, '00)

Edited by Hasan4978, 27 November 2005 - 11:09 PM.

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-NHL record for most home wins in the playoffs - 12-1 in '03

#76 langsgirl

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 01:47 AM

I disagree. A penalty shot is still the most exciting play in hockey and it's earned during a game before the artificial aspect of a shootout.

You can't have 4-on-4 forever. I'd have recommended 2:00 of 3-on-3 before the shootout.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Why not have 4 on 4 forever..sounds fun! :)
I think watching the penalty shot just feels like watching the end of the games now.

I liked sudden death OT to tie game :) For those 5 minutes I was a nervous wreck..and i liked that... for the shootout..its like it doesnt even count..since those goals dont count.. i dunno..it just makes it feel fake.

Edited by langsgirl, 28 November 2005 - 01:53 AM.

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#77 njdevils_info

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 03:54 AM

Wow, I don't show up for a day and the thread all goes to hell.

Okay, first, 7, I know you hate Bettman and all, I'm no fan either. But you need to take him for what he is: a puppet. He's just the guy who sits there and does what the GM's with their hands up his ass make him do.
Don't think he's the great and powerful Oz of hockey and it is he and only he to blame for everything that is wrong with the sport.

Jester: the glowing puck? You come back at me with the glowing puck? When I said gimmicky, the glowing puck is a stretch at best. That was mental retardation put in to practice thanks to the idiots at Fox.

I should correct myself and say it was a gimmick for the fans, the term fans should be used loosely. The NHL is doing stuff for the guys that don't watch hockey on a regular basis. The NHL wants something to draw people that don't normally care in. The NHL knows that the shootout can do just that by what has just happened thanks to the Rangers. That goal made highlight reel after highlight reel.

Sure, die-hard fans will criticize away, but the fact is we keep coming back for more. And sure, a few may say the NHL is dead and this is so bad, bring back the ties, I'm leaving, screw hockey. The amount of people that might actually leave being a fan of the sport vs. the amount of people that may actually pay to go see a game because it looks like more fun, for whatever reason, is reason enough for the NHL to bring in a shootout for OT decisions after OT.

As for continuous play until a winner is decided is a bad idea. No, we don't coddle hockey players, but with a tough schedule in place (Sammy, you are right, ergo the Olympics) you do not want to overstretch your players on games that, individually, don't mean as much, especially since an OTL still gives you a point.

Sure, disagree with that all you want but what is going on right now about goaltenders being overworked and now injured more frequently thanks to players crashing the net. We may not coddle them, but we certainly don't like it when someone gets hurt. Do you really want to stretch them even further making a regular season game last 7 periods? Even Doc said that goaltenders that used to play 70 games may only get in 55 or so because of the increase in play.

So, take from this what you will. I don't mean to discredit anyone's opinion, or say one is better than the other, but lets face it, this was a GM decision just to make money. Screw tradition. Screw die-hard fans feelings. Screw what should and should not determine a winner. Cheep publicity sells, and that's what this does very easily. In just 20 games, they created something that now every sports show has talked about.

In their minds, the shootout is already a success.
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#78 Derek21

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 03:57 AM

Why not have 4 on 4 forever..sounds fun! :)
I think watching the penalty shot just feels like watching the end of the games now.

I liked sudden death OT to tie game :) For those 5 minutes I was a nervous wreck..and i liked that... for the shootout..its like it doesnt even count..since those goals dont count.. i dunno..it just makes it feel fake.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Four-on-four is great. I agree. But it also reminds me of some of the arguments people made for having it for the whole duration. Eh.

Penalty shots to me still are great. I know shootouts might demean it. But a penalty shot is still the most pivotal play in the game. Because of momentum.

I like sudden death too. Unfortunately, it can't go forever.

It's like Clown said. I'm not in love with the shootout to decide these extra points which get there. But it hasn't been all bad. When you have people showing that Malik clip all over and talking about how you had to see it, that's not bad. The game needs as much press as it can get. That's the positive. But this is what Bettman wanted. There's always a turnback.
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#79 Don

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 06:24 AM

We can't have more than 5 minutes of OT because the rat-bastards at the NHLPA would never, ever allow it.
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#80 NJD Jester

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 08:38 AM

Jester: the glowing puck?  You come back at me with the glowing puck?  When I said gimmicky, the glowing puck is a stretch at best.  That was mental retardation put in to practice thanks to the idiots at Fox.


Couldn't agree more. But it's the same kind of "bait for the casual fan" tactic as the shootout.

I should correct myself and say it was a gimmick for the fans, the term fans should be used loosely.  The NHL is doing stuff for the guys that don't watch hockey on a regular basis.  The NHL wants something to draw people that don't normally care in.  The NHL knows that the shootout can do just that by what has just happened thanks to the Rangers.  That goal made highlight reel after highlight reel.


But what good does that do for the sport? That's what I keep hearing from people: the shootout is for the casual fan; the shootout will bring casual fans to hockey. First of all, there's zero evidence that's been the case this season or last season in the AHL or in the Olympics or anywhere else. Secondly, what happens when these people drawn to the siren's song of the shootout come to a game or watch it on TV and find out (gasp!) there are 10 other players on the ice, and those super-special moves you see in the shootout happen, maybe, once in the normal course of play? Will they stick around to watch non-shootout hockey?

It's like a fan who comes to the NBA after watching the slam-dunk competition. He'll be sorely disappointed after his first 10 travelling violations...

As for continuous play until a winner is decided is a bad idea.  No, we don't coddle hockey players, but with a tough schedule in place (Sammy, you are right, ergo the Olympics) you do not want to overstretch your players on games that, individually, don't mean as much, especially since an OTL still gives you a point.

Sure, disagree with that all you want but what is going on right now about goaltenders being overworked and now injured more frequently thanks to players crashing the net.  We may not coddle them, but we certainly don't like it when someone gets hurt.  Do you really want to stretch them even further making a regular season game last 7 periods?  Even Doc said that goaltenders that used to play 70 games may only get in 55 or so because of the increase in play.


There's a simple solution for that, or for any team worried about fatigue:

WIN THE GAME IN REGULATION OR THE FIRST OT.

Seriously, how many of these marathon overtime games do you expect to see in the new NHL? It's not like the playoffs: it's 4-on-4, wide open, and now with the fresh scent of penalties. It's like a petrie dish for goal scoring.

<JESTER>
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"Glow Pucks & 10-Cent Beer: The 101 Worst Ideas in Sports History" is available now online and at local bookstores.

Get your NJD fan stories published in Hell & Back: A People's History Of The New Jersey Devils. Visit The Hell & Back Homepage for details!




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