59 replies to this topic

[brylin18]

i love how im getting messages from people telling me not to namecall. here you have an entire thread that is entitled "Palestinians = idiots". i don't have any respect for racists. you call a whole nation of people idiots, i will call you an idiot.

[NJDevs4978]

Huge difference between calling other people idiots for electing a terrorist organization to government and directing the same type of comment towards another poster who you know nothing about and just made a bunch of assumptions that were not true. She happens to be one of the smartest posters here as others have pointed out.

And as a general board rule name-calling and personal attacks directed toward other posters IS frowned on regardless, even here though unfortunately we tend to grow tired of babysitting this folder's discussions so it doesn't get enforced enough (hence the message up top)

Edited by Hasan4978, 27 January 2006 - 10:55 PM.

[HelenaHandbasket]

Yet only one side has decided to strap bombs to themselves and kill innocents at will...

The Israelis don't have to since they have an army. Not that I'm in favor of suicide bombings, but I can see the utility of it when you don't have a lot to work with.

Some basics on how Israel came to be. I like geeking out better than arguing.

[brylin18]

she may be smart about some things, but i think it is pretty clear that she is not smart about the history of this conflict (pssst.....israel did not lose the 6-day war).

what if there was a palestinian reading this board. what if he/she was personally offended by the title of this thread. what are you going to do to protect THAT person from name-calling and personal attacks.

if you truly want these boards to stay clean, you, as a board administrator, have a duty to not allow hate speech on these boards. if you want to allow hate speech, that's fine, but i will call it out every time i see it.

[NJDevs4978]

Well using that logic we can't call Pat Quinn or Bobby Clarke an idiot either, in case one of their relatives was reading the board or we can't call the Rangers idiots in case Ranger fans get offended. Hell I'm sure there've been Devil players that were called idiots too, I don't remember anyone raising too much of a fuss then.

If you want to call out ALL 'hate' speech wonderful, where were you the other 52535 posts in this forum where Repubs called Dems a bunch of lovely names and Dems called Repubs the same? I don't like the way this folder always degenerates into name-calling (which is obviously disallowed in any other folder) but that's what a lot of politics is these days unfortunately, and at least this folder keeps political talk here and it doesn't spill into other forums.

The last time this folder got eliminated everyone raised holy hell...but then again I think it was during the start of the Iraq war, people might be less passioniate about keeping it now I dunno. Maybe we should put it to a vote quite frankly, I could do without it myself...but of course the 15 or so people that consistently post here will probably get outvoted by the majority who don't and they'll scream bloody murder.

And make no mistake if this folder ever did get eliminated, there would be no political or war talk allowed ANYwhere on the board period - as there isn't now except for this folder. It's just too divisive.

Plus as far as her specific posts go, she admitted upfront she didn't know everything about the history of the conflict and you chose to use that as a convenient excuse to pick apart everything else in the posts.

BTW I've seen a lot worse garbage directed at Muslims in this folder than the title of this thread which seems to have raised your ire defending the Palestinians. And I'm part Muslim. But I'm not going to go suspend someone simply for being closed-minded.

Edited by Hasan4978, 27 January 2006 - 11:30 PM.

[El Diablo]

Not that I'm in favor of suicide bombings, but I can see the utility of it when you don't have a lot to work with.

Lol -you remind me of that old Kinison line about wife abuse "I dont condone it .. I understand it..."

[HelenaHandbasket]

Lol -you remind me of that old Kinison line about wife abuse "I dont condone it .. I understand it..."

Well, how would you fight an army if you didn't have one?

[El Diablo]

Well, how would you fight an army if you didn't have one?

By killing babies -children -women - men - people in buses -bars - restaurants - malls -trains -planes and towers... youre right...

[RowdyFan42]

Just for future reference to the board, I'm a Psychology professsor, not a History one. However, I do know this teacher who's getting his Ph.D. in HISTORY so the next time I see him I'm going to ask him a few things!!!!!!

I knew you taught *something*!

[MaddDog]

she may be smart about some things, but i think it is pretty clear that she is not smart about the history of this conflict (pssst.....israel did not lose the 6-day war)

I'm well aware that Israel WON the Six-Day War. Next time you say I have no clue about the conflict, you may want to re-read what I wrote:

Funny how you mention the Jews fleeing there but you don't mention how many of the Palestinians fled there because they were treated like crap in their other Arab nations, or because Egypt/Jordan/etc told the Palestinians to go there so they could have the land after Israel lost the Six-Day War

The surrounding Arab nations that declared war on Israel TOLD their Palestinian citizens that they could have the land for themselves once Israel was destroyed and no longer existed. Meaning, the Arab nations were sure Israel WOULD be defeated. Well, it obviously didn't pan out that way but that was one of the main motivations for the Palestinians to migrate there. Once Israel prevailed, the Palis were stuck in refugee camps and their own wonderful Arab neighbors did NOT want them back. Those Muslim nations were really compassionate, weren't they? I will never understand the outrage towards Israel when Muslims get absolved of ALL blame for their abuse towards the Palestinians!!!!!!!


In addition, your comment about hate speech and racism makes no sense. I think most people would have understood the gist of my original post - that their ACTIONS are IDIOTIC. And well, they are, when you consider it. They want their own state and yet they elect a friggin terrorist organization with NO prior political experience. Nice!!!! Plus how is it racist when I was under the impression that Palestinians are Caucasian?

Did you read anything I took the time to post last time, regarding the Hamas Charter? Hamas has publicly stated that Jews must be killed, Israel must be destroyed, Islam must rule over all religions, etc. To be honest, the more I read about them, the more I'm getting TALIBAN vibes and this is NOT a good thing. Consider the utter misery Afghans lived under when the Taliban regime took over, and how hideously women and girls were treated in that culture. It's already bad enough in the Palestinian terrorities with the internal strife and honor killings of females who've done nothing wrong. I'm not sure the Palis know what they've elected and just what will happen to them if Hamas is as fundamentalist as I think they might be (e.g., competely repressive theocracy). Let's hope not for their sake.


Oh, for those of you who wonder if Hamas will become more moderate:

Hamas Says It Will Not Change


GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - Following their resounding election victory, the Islamic militants of Hamas met the question of whether they will change their stripes with a loud "no": no recognition of Israel, no negotiations, no renunciation of terror.

But the world holds out hope that international pressure can make them more moderate. At stake is the future of Mideast peacemaking, billions of dollars in aid and the Palestinians' relationship with Israel, the United States and Europe.


And you wonder why I'm disgusted with the election results?? By electing these buffoons, Palestinians are (sadly) showing they don't want peace. Just HOW will this permit them to achieve their goal of a home state, I ask once again?? Hell, I think Hamas ASSASSINATED a rival Fatah candidate just prior to the election. Can you imagine the Democrats killing Bush during the pre-election run up and Kerry winning the Presidency?!?!?

Losing the millions and billions of aid may get them to change their tune in public and present a moderate public visage, but even then it sounds like they'll be supporting and sponsoring terrorism in a covert manner. Neither scenario is good. I find this sad more than anything. The Palestinians will never have a thriving, vibrant economy and populace as long as they cling to this irrational hatred and persistently scapegoat Israel as the cause of all their ills. Even Fatah was more or less a terrorist group in disguise. The Palestinian leadership has harmed the Pals more than Israel ever could (e.g., indoctrination of venomous anti Jewish beliefs, Hamas/Al-Aqsa Martyr Brigades/Islamic Jihad promoting terror, Arafat stealing billions in aid over the years).

[Jimmy Leeds]

Remember MadDog, when all else fails.....yell RACISM.

Tried and true tactic of the left.

[Don]

-planes and towers...

Hamas organized 9/11?!?!? Holy crap. Do the newspapers know this? Do you have a link?

Jimmy: The right don't use it because they know everyone would laugh their head off.

[SueNJ97]

Actually, I don't think the Palestinians were idiots, necessarily. But I also don't think this election was JUST about the corruption and inertia of the Fatah Party. I think the Palestinians looked at it this way:

1. With the relatively efficient running of their charitable wing, and the institutions it had built, Hamas had proved that, administratively, it was capable of something approaching delivering basic services.

2. Over the many years that Fatah had been in power it had never actually proved it was capable of running a government. They never bothered to try to deliver basic services. People were willing to put up with it when Arafat was in charge because he was, well, Arafat. But after he died, they actually expected something more from their government on an everyday basis than empty gestures.

3. On top of having proved on a small scale that they can do something that Fatah cannot do on any scale, Hamas says it is dedicated to the destruction of Israel. So, they could vote for the party that vows to destroy the country that they want destroyed and might give them some basic services as well. They think they might someday get back Jerusalem AND get Tel Aviv in the bargain, along with whatever Hamas can deliver. The fact that nobody has ever actually won a war against Israel apparently fails to register. Maybe they think Iran is going to use nuclear weapons against the Israelis - forgetting that this will make much of the place uninhabitable for them, as well.

4. In any case they probably believe, and it is already showing itself to be true in stuff I have read from around the world, that everyone except the US will NOT cut off the aid, despite the fact that Hamas vows to destroy Israel. So Hamas can use the aid however it wants to use it. That includes using it against Israel. The Europeans and others may say that's not what they intend but we also know they can't do anything to stop it.

I think this is proof that, just because a vote is democratic, it won't necessarily always produce results we are going to like. In Algeria, in the last election they had, over a decade ago, didn't they freely elect a government that basically said they were never going to allow elections again? Their own army then overthrew them. But a democratic election doesn't always produce what we think it will here in the US. I don't think that means we have to do anything about it, militarily. They elected that government, let them live with it. But that doesn't mean that we have to give them any money, either. Or deal with them in any way. As long as their stated policy is the destruction of Israel, we are under no obligation to deal with them. Aid comes with a PRICE. That price is a change in policy. And not lip service, either.

Edited by SueNJ97, 29 January 2006 - 09:54 AM.

[El Diablo]

Hamas organized 9/11?!?!? Holy crap. Do the newspapers know this? Do you have a link?

No Don - they didnt.. but a very similar terrorist organization did.. well versed in the same tactics
and I guess the beginning of the statement can be swept under the rug...
btw you put too much credence on links..

[ice dog]

the whole world is chalk full of idiots not just in palestine!

look who the usa elected in 2004(again)...

[Derek21]

the whole world is chalk full of idiots not just in palestine!

look who the usa elected in 2004(again)...

Depends how you view it. I'd like to think every individual has a logical reason for doing what they do. I don't believe in labeling someone. Especially a group.

That being said, sometimes people's decisions can be influenced negatively for a cause. Maybe it's justified and maybe it's not depending on their intentions.


That's pretty much all I have to add.

[MaddDog]

Well, if we're going to make *that* kind of comparison between Bush and Hamas, Bush would have run on a platform advocating the genocide of his Canadian (or Mexican) neighbors and the destruction of Canada (or Mexico).

Don't get me wrong, Bush certainly ACTS like an idiot at times, but hell, so did Frankenkerry and assorted Dem candidates. It's not like we got anyone DECENT to pick from the last election.


What concerns me about the Palestinians is the vast majority HAS supported the destruction of Israel for years. Isn't it like 80% or more want Israel annihilated?? So, did they elect Hamas because of their social services and the inept Fatah party, or because Hamas publicly says what they want to happen (Israel goes bye bye)???


I'm even more confused by their voting patterns when I read this:

Despite Hamas win, Palestinians want peace with Israel


An excerpt:

RAMALLAH, West Bank (AFP) - Hamas's election victory may have raised fears of a hardening in Palestinian attitudes towards Israel, but a poll shows a vast majority want a negotiated peace with their Jewish neighbours.

A survey conducted within days of the Islamist group's landslide win in the parliamentary election showed 84 percent of Palestinians want a negotiated peace agreement with Israel

Perhaps more importantly in the wake of growing international pressure, nearly three-quarters want Hamas to drop its call for the destruction of Israel, said the survey by the Ramallah-based Near East Consulting institute.


If this is true, and they want Israel to exist, why did they vote in Hamas who STILL has said in public AFTER the election that they will NOT negotiate with Israel or stop the terrorism? I mean wtf?? They KNEW what Hamas was all about. Why would they suddenly change their minds this way and now want Hamas to stop saying Israel should be destroyed? Do the Palestinians just want the aid donations from the West or have they *truly* altered their attitudes. Forgive me if I'm a bit skeptical here.

I notice Hamas is asking for the foreign aid even after they said they refused to negotiate with Israel. How many social services will they be able to provide if the aid dries up? The Palestinian terrorities are among the poorest on earth. Hamas better change or else they will completely fvck over the Palestinians. I honestly don't want my tax dollars going over there to a terrorist group.


Interestingly, after I pondered the ramifications of a Hamas victory the other day, I read an article where Hamas wants to institute some kind of sharia law... can't find the link now... Taliban here we come?? First it's hijab, segegrated classes, and no alcohol; next it'll be a full-body burqa, girls can't attend school, and no music. They even burned down some Christian-owned brewery in the past. I believe Abbas still has to approve alot of these changes to the law, though. Which makes me wonder, is he next in line for an assassination attempt if Fatah-Hamas can't resolve the conflict?? Fatah is secular and Hamas is fundamentalist from the sounds of it. Civil war might not be out of the question.

[pattyelias]

please, open a history book before make yourself look any dumber. israel didn't exist before 1948. their "war of independance" was a mad dash land grab with boatloads of eastern european jews shipped in to consolidate colonial europe's last curse on the world.

for you to be stating that the palestinians are anti-semites is beyond idiotic. palestinians ARE semites. most israelies are NOT semites. most of them are descendants of eastern europeans. quite frankly, you are the one being anti-semitic. read a book for god's sake.

Well.....while the state of Israel did not exist before 1948 that certainly does not demonstrate that a state of Palestine ever existed. As for the mad dash land grab aided by the boatloads of Eastern European Jews you are so casually referring to, should we in any way take into consideration their motivation for leaving Europe.

Your point on anti-semitism is baseless as well. Any casual glance at any Palestinian media will demonstrate the widespread anti-semitism that is prevalent in Palestinian society. The whole 'Arabs are actually Semites while Jews aren't' is a pathetic and tiresome little game that is played by Jew-haters who like to veil their Jew-hatred. Anti-Semitism is a hatred of Jews. Semitic is not even a term to describe any racial characteristics. It is a term used to describe a linguistic group; the most notable Semitic languages being Hebrew, Arabic, Amharic, and Aramaic.

Even if we were to somehow make Semite a racial or ethnic category, how exactly would one go about proving the 'Semitic purity' of the Palestinians. Should we forget the complete transitory nature of Bedoin Arabs who lived in the region, ethnic Turks, Albanians, and Circassians brought as soldiers to serve there and administer government functions during the Ottoman period. The region represented a melting pot of people, but hey you tell me that the Palestinians are pure Semites so it must true. I must need to read some books...

Most Israeli Jews are Eastern Europeans??? Really? Whatever happened to the 130,000 Iraqi Jews, 100,000 from Morocco, the Jews of Yemen, Ethiopia, Libya, Algeria, Iran, Turkey, Syria, etc... Sefaradim constitute a majority of the Israeli Jewish population and have done so for a long time. Just because the political leadership in Israel has been dominated by Askenazim does not translate into an Ashkenazi majority among the populace. Please don't trot around pretending to be an expert when you are most certainly not. Being an advocate for the Palestinians should not mean that you are allowed to use broad generalizations in describing Israelis, which just so happen to be completely incorrect.

[Derek21]

Tell ya one thing. I think MaddDog had a point. I heard that the Hamas sent a letter and addressed it, To whom it may concern:


They won't even recognize Israel. And from the sounds of it, their goal still seems to include destroying it. Not exactly very sincere.

[halfsharkalligatorhalfman]

bottom line: The election of Hamas in palestine is bad news for anyone who hopes of peace being accomplished in the region.