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Cmon Belicheck and Pat$


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#21 njdevils783

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Posted 06 November 2007 - 12:47 AM

My point is, that until you have evidence of other teams cheating, the tarnish is singular to the Patriots. That's not to say that he isn't a good coach or the players aren't great, but cheating is absolutely not acceptable.

While the magnitude of the offense isn't as great, what you're saying is basically akin to it being alright for Barry Bonds to use steroids to break Hank Aaron's record, because other players, like McGwire, were roiding too.

Actually no. I never had a big problem with the streroids thing because in the 90's everyone from high school to the minors and pros was doing steroids. The government is going to release that 2nd list of players who were purchasing steroids soon and I think allot of the fan favorites may be on that list With that said in the 90's everyone was cheating and so yea there records should be looked at differently. It is unfair to compare the eras of Ruth, Cobb, Mantle, Maris, Williams etc to what is going on today. Those records in my mind are completely different. Maris and Aaron are the home run champs of that era plain and simple. Now we have never offically been given proof that McGwire was on steriods but can you honestly tell me 99.99999% of America doesnt think he cheated? If you disagree your lieing to yourself. Now we can villafy him and Bonds with no actual hard proof yet but we cant do that to the rest of the NFL? Come on get real Belichek wasn't the only one doing this. Manjini learns under him has some sucess last season but not enough so he rats Belichek out for the same thing he had probably been doing. Now Dungy with the excessive noise being blasted into he stadium. This garbage is never going to end now.

Oh and believe me I'm not trying to start an argument or anything I just enjoy a good debate. It can be intelectually stimulating lol and it gives me a break from my usual studying. But if your really want to continue this just PM me because this convo is just going to annoy most people lol :-)

Edited by njdevils783, 06 November 2007 - 01:06 AM.

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#22 Don

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Posted 06 November 2007 - 06:55 AM

My point is, that until you have evidence of other teams cheating, the tarnish is singular to the Patriots. That's not to say that he isn't a good coach or the players aren't great, but cheating is absolutely not acceptable.


But where does this end? When I played/coached baseball, I tried to steal signals.

"Stealing signals is okay, stealing signals with a video camera is okay, but stealing signals from a video camera on the sidelines is just plain evil" seems like semantics. There are pitchers in the baseball hall of fame that made a career out of spitballs and filed-baseball knuckleballs. I don't think they tarnished the game.

Would you kick George Brett out of the hall of fame for using too much pine tar?
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#23 TravisZajac

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Posted 06 November 2007 - 07:28 PM

And trust me buddy every other coach in the league is doing it. Like I said he just got caught. Everyone looks for that extra edge and most of the time the way they get it is against the rules. But to think that he is the only one doing it is crazy. Just look at Dungy now everyone is getting accused of cheating because face it EVERYONE does it. Now that tarnishes the game as a whole but to criticize their championships jsut becaues they are terrible at cheating lol I dont know.

But yea we'll never agree on this lol being confrence rivals doesn't help either.

lol and now reading it the buddy thing sound derogatory and I didnt mean it that way was just trying to be funny



Do you have any kind of proof that the whole league is doing the same thing as the Pats?

Please, proove me .... Yeah, it tarnishs their Super bowls, they got caught, and they have been using that "strategy" since 2000, when Bellichick came as the Head Coach.

Of course, every team tries to get the opposite Coordinators signs, but not with a camera, that's illegal.

And what Dungy is being accused off?
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#24 Don

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Posted 06 November 2007 - 10:47 PM

Do you have any kind of proof that the whole league is doing the same thing as the Pats?

Please, proove me .... Yeah, it tarnishs their Super bowls, they got caught, and they have been using that "strategy" since 2000, when Bellichick came as the Head Coach.

Of course, every team tries to get the opposite Coordinators signs, but not with a camera, that's illegal.


Blah, blah, blah.... I've heard it 1000% times before about the Devils. 'Hooking and holding' cheating tarnished their wins. That they used the trap tarnished their cup wins. :blah: All that is is low-class jealous fans of other teams trying to cheapen championships. If you want to cheapen a Patriots championship use something realistic like 'the tuck rule'.

And using a camera is *NOT* illegal. Using a camera at ground level is illegal. "Going 110km/hour is legal, but only if you are wearing a hat."

Teams other than the Patriots were taping signals on the sidelines.
The league issued a warning two weeks before the season started that this would not be tolerated.
Game 1, the Patriots defied the league warning and were slammed for it.
So, no, the other teams didn't defy the league edict. So there is no proof.

But similarly, I would like to see your proof that the Patriots were recording signals during the past Superbowls. I want your documented proof. I'll take a weekend and hop on down to Montreal to see it.
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#25 njdevils783

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Posted 06 November 2007 - 10:58 PM

Do you have any kind of proof that the whole league is doing the same thing as the Pats?

Please, proove me .... Yeah, it tarnishs their Super bowls, they got caught, and they have been using that "strategy" since 2000, when Bellichick came as the Head Coach.

Of course, every team tries to get the opposite Coordinators signs, but not with a camera, that's illegal.

And what Dungy is being accused off?

Wow I didnt realize you were in the front office for th Pats or work for the NFL. Can I see the tapes from all those chamionships I mean you said they have been doing since 2000 so I am assuming you have some proof right? If noone else was doing this kind of thing then why did the league warn everyone in the preseason about this kind of behavior? But come on lets get some proof of the "strategy" going on since 2000 because I am dieing to read this. You say one thing to me and then make the same type of accusation this is going no where. Face it this all amounts to jealousy. While your hung up on this garbage everyone else is talking about how this is one of the greatest teams of all time. This kind of stuff just makes fans of other teams feel better about themselves but really move on.

Edited by njdevils783, 06 November 2007 - 11:05 PM.

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#26 NJDevs4978

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Posted 07 November 2007 - 07:49 AM

There is pretty strong evidence that they were doing this last year from all the teams that had been complaining - hence Goodell's no tolerance edict. There's also some evidence of OTHER forms of cheating such as tampering with teams' audio headsets.

There's no proof they were doing this during SB's but there's no proof they weren't either. Same head coach after all. I HIGHLY doubt that this whole taping thing is something BB would just come up with only this year, of all seasons when he has his best team to boot.

And there is 'absolutely' no other proof that any other team has been involved in similar chicanery as much as NE fans want to say every team was doing it, there's not even a shred of evidence to that effect. If there was I'm sure the Patriots would have found out by now since they're busy trying to persecute every other team in revenge :rolleyes:
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#27 MantaRay

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Posted 07 November 2007 - 02:32 PM

There is pretty strong evidence that they were doing this last year from all the teams that had been complaining - hence Goodell's no tolerance edict. There's also some evidence of OTHER forms of cheating such as tampering with teams' audio headsets.

There's no proof they were doing this during SB's but there's no proof they weren't either. Same head coach after all. I HIGHLY doubt that this whole taping thing is something BB would just come up with only this year, of all seasons when he has his best team to boot.

And there is 'absolutely' no other proof that any other team has been involved in similar chicanery as much as NE fans want to say every team was doing it, there's not even a shred of evidence to that effect. If there was I'm sure the Patriots would have found out by now since they're busy trying to persecute every other team in revenge :rolleyes:



The only difference between the Patriots and all the other teams is that other teams use still photo's, where the Pats used video once.

This whole episode is so overblown and insignificant. The bottomline is that no one can beat the Pats so they need excuses. I want the Pat's to just DESTROY the Dolphins to shut-up a jealous Don Shula.
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#28 TravisZajac

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Posted 07 November 2007 - 04:44 PM

Wow I didnt realize you were in the front office for th Pats or work for the NFL. Can I see the tapes from all those chamionships I mean you said they have been doing since 2000 so I am assuming you have some proof right? If noone else was doing this kind of thing then why did the league warn everyone in the preseason about this kind of behavior? But come on lets get some proof of the "strategy" going on since 2000 because I am dieing to read this. You say one thing to me and then make the same type of accusation this is going no where. Face it this all amounts to jealousy. While your hung up on this garbage everyone else is talking about how this is one of the greatest teams of all time. This kind of stuff just makes fans of other teams feel better about themselves but really move on.


Okay...

Here we go:

http://www.post-gaze...id=steelers.xml

Steelers coaches, who asked not to be identified, have suspected for a long time that the Patriots used such a device to gain an illegal advantage, although they did not file a complaint with the league.
One assistant said the Steelers changed their defensive signals whenever they played against New England because of their suspicions.



----------------------------------------------------
January 2002: Patriots defeat Steelers in AFC Championship Game. Steelers receiver Hines Ward now says the Patriots "knew a lot of our calls."

December 2004: Patriots defeat Bengals 35-28 at Gillette Stadium. Bengals coach Marvin Lewis later said his team's headsets went out during the game.

February 2005: Patriots defeat Eagles in Super Bowl. Players on the Eagles now say they were amazed at the Patriots' ability to know which defensive calls were coming.


January 2006: Patriots defeat Jaguars in playoffs. Jaguars get two delay-of-game penalties early in the game, and Jaguars coach Jack Del Rio later says, "Our coach-to-quarterback system mysteriously malfunctioned the entire first half."

January 2006: Jets hire Mangini as head coach.

October 2006: Bills lose to Patriots, suspect cheating but don't report it.

November 2006: Packers president Bob Harlan receives tip that Patriots use a cameraman to steal signals. Packers catch Patriots employee Matt Estrella with a camera on the sidelines and tell him to leave the sideline. Packers later catch Estrella filming from a tunnel and remove him from the stadium completely.

December 2006: Patriots beat Lions in a surprisingly close game at Gillette Stadium. Lions later say their headsets malfunctioned at key times in two consecutive offensive drives.



Last year the Lions played the Patriots in Foxboro. At one point their coach, Rod Marinelli, phoned up to the press box, "There's a camera pointed right at our defensive coach making his calls. Is that allowed?" A Lions' employee called the NFL booth. No, it certainly was not. So the videotaper was stopped. Then after a while he began again. The same process was repeated and he was asked to stop again. Now that's dedication.

"You don't really know for sure," Marinelli said. "I mean you don't know whether he might be doing something for NFL Films or a coaches' show or whatever."

"At one point we had a good drive going against the Patriots," said one Lion who doesn't want his name involved in this mess, but was willing to talk about it. "Mike Martz really had 'em going. They were getting fouled up, lining up wrong, we were moving the ball. Then boom, the headset from the sidelines to the coaches' booth goes out.

"Next possession we were moving the ball again and the same thing happened. You know it only takes two or three plays to mess up a drive."

Matt Millen, the Lions' GM, was talking to Bengals' coach Marvin Lewis at the league meetings. He started telling him the story.

"Yeah, I know," Lewis said. "Headset went out. It happened to me in Foxboro, too."

Marinelli was the defensive line coach in Tampa Bay when the Bucs beat the Patriots in the 2000 regular season opener and did a good job controlling New England's offense. After the game the Patriots' offensive coach, Charlie Weis, was overheard congratulating the Bucs' defensive coordinator, Monte Kiffin.

"We knew all your calls, and you still stopped us," Weis said. "I can't believe it."

He couldn't believe it because the Patriots had videotaped all of the defensive signals in their last preseason game, which was against the Bucs.

The stories are all coming out now, but why hadn't all this been reported to the league office before this?

"At the time, you never know for sure," Millen said. "And if you don't know it at the time, then you don't feel right reporting it later."
-------------

Bottom line..


There's more proof that the Pats have been doing this for years, than any kind of proof by other teams doing it.

Here you go.
(And.. I can't say the pats have been doing this 100%, I just took quotes out of Coachs/Players, and some facts, against the Pats. And, for that reason, there's a lot of proof.)

Don't feel so greety.

Edited by TravisZajac, 07 November 2007 - 04:45 PM.

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#29 CRASHER

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Posted 07 November 2007 - 05:17 PM

the turning off of the headsets is the ultimate in bush league petty garbage that I can possibly think of doing here (well aside from putting guys in the wrong jerseys), and that to me I have a bigger issue with then the taping
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#30 Masked Fan

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Posted 07 November 2007 - 06:39 PM

... His team is so focused and motivated that it appears that Mangini has awakened a monster. ...

:lol:
"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant." - Japanese Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto - 1941

"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve." - Mangina and the rest of the NFL - 2007


That's funny, I could have swore it was feedback from the earpieces worn by the zebras getting orders from "Fat Tony" to throw a few questionable yellow hankies against the Patriots so they wouldn't cover. ;)

That's what the real, official complaint from the Patriots shoulda been. 3 B.S. Pass Interference calls are getting zero attention because of this crap, where there is VISUAL EVIDENCE that the flags were complete B.S.!

I sed to my self "Self, if the Pats can still win this game with those flags against them, that would be incredibly impressive"
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#31 njdevils783

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Posted 07 November 2007 - 11:34 PM

Most of that is just he said she said that I heard that my best friend say that my cousins uncle was seen standing on the pats side line videotaping our calls. The stuff with people not giving there names out just sounds like reaching to me but hey I'm going to have a different point of view then you. But lets face it pretty much all of this is just speculation with no hard facts. I mean the NFL has not released any proof of any outside tampering with the exception of the Jets game. I mean we can still speculate that the Colts were pumping additional fan sounds out of their speakers as multiple teams including the Pats have now accused them of doing but why waist my time. In the end it really comes down to one thing your a steelers fan and I'm a Pats fan so I'm never going to see your point and you'll never see mine. So I'll just agree to disagree and hope someone hijacks this thread already lol. :gd: :cheers:

Edited by njdevils783, 08 November 2007 - 01:42 AM.

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#32 TravisZajac

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Posted 08 November 2007 - 08:04 AM

Most of that is just he said she said that I heard that my best friend say that my cousins uncle was seen standing on the pats side line videotaping our calls. The stuff with people not giving there names out just sounds like reaching to me but hey I'm going to have a different point of view then you. But lets face it pretty much all of this is just speculation with no hard facts. I mean the NFL has not released any proof of any outside tampering with the exception of the Jets game. I mean we can still speculate that the Colts were pumping additional fan sounds out of their speakers as multiple teams including the Pats have now accused them of doing but why waist my time. In the end it really comes down to one thing your a steelers fan and I'm a Pats fan so I'm never going to see your point and you'll never see mine. So I'll just agree to disagree and hope someone hijacks this thread already lol. :gd: :cheers:



I'm pretty sure Goodell could have ask to Bill, when did they start to use that strategy? Did they use it during those Super Bowls&? ect.... And if we really did know for 100% sure, then, it would be a different situation. If Goodell would have ask all those questions, and Bill would have responded "yes" , this would have hurt the league, and team "america" . So, I think its better like this, Goodell did the right thing... Though, I still think their sucess is tarnished and I have my point of view. Your a Pats fan, so i guess we'll never be on the same line.


And the NFL have said it... It was CBS fault if you heard that mixed up crowd. The NFL said itself, its not QUOTES from Players/Coachs.

:)
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#33 Masked Fan

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Posted 08 November 2007 - 08:46 AM

... I still think their sucess is tarnished and I have my point of view. ...


So, what's yer excuse for letting the Pats come into Heinz Field whippin yer Steelhers in the past?


Obviously "they were better" just doesn't work for you. Theres gotta be a scape goat.
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#34 LOTCB

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Posted 08 November 2007 - 12:12 PM

So, what's yer excuse for letting the Pats come into Heinz Field whippin yer Steelhers in the past?
Obviously "they were better" just doesn't work for you. Theres gotta be a scape goat.


I know the Pats* are awesome, they are great, you do not win 3 Super Bowls by cheating alone..to me that is an irresponsible comment...yes, a lot of things are speculative, but Goodell did come down hard on the Pats*, if this was not that big of an issue, why the harsh fine and loss of a 1st rounder?

I agree that now Belipunk looks at himself as a rebel, a guy who wants to really pi$$ off the establishment and really does not care who he offends along the way. And the team is behind him 100 percent. The Pats* are a team to marvel over at times, they draft great, have a keen eye for talent, and have a great QB and great Head Coach. Id kill for some of that in Buffalo, I can respect the Pats*, but I do not have to like them.

As for speculating that other teams cheat, it is like college sports, until the institution is officially caught, you have to assume innocent until proven guilty.

Edited by LOTCB, 08 November 2007 - 12:13 PM.

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#35 MantaRay

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Posted 08 November 2007 - 12:35 PM

I know the Pats* are awesome, they are great, you do not win 3 Super Bowls by cheating alone..to me that is an irresponsible comment...yes, a lot of things are speculative, but Goodell did come down hard on the Pats*, if this was not that big of an issue, why the harsh fine and loss of a 1st rounder?

I agree that now Belipunk looks at himself as a rebel, a guy who wants to really pi$$ off the establishment and really does not care who he offends along the way. And the team is behind him 100 percent. The Pats* are a team to marvel over at times, they draft great, have a keen eye for talent, and have a great QB and great Head Coach. Id kill for some of that in Buffalo, I can respect the Pats*, but I do not have to like them.

As for speculating that other teams cheat, it is like college sports, until the institution is officially caught, you have to assume innocent until proven guilty.



Thats a very fair assessment.
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#36 Don

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Posted 08 November 2007 - 02:14 PM

As for speculating that other teams cheat, it is like college sports, until the institution is officially caught, you have to assume innocent until proven guilty.


Aye.

But that's on each count of the indictment.

Until you prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Patriots had a camera at ground level record opposition coaches making signals in the superbowl, the presumption of innocence is there.

You can't have proof a man killed someone and then charge him with all the unsolved cases that ever happened in the city on this man. You have to have proof of each offense.
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#37 TravisZajac

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Posted 08 November 2007 - 05:33 PM

So, what's yer excuse for letting the Pats come into Heinz Field whippin yer Steelhers in the past?
Obviously "they were better" just doesn't work for you. Theres gotta be a scape goat.



??

Where did I say, that the Steelers lost due to cheating by the Patriots?

Tell me?

I only reported quotes from Steelers players/Eagles players/Detroit Lions COACH/GM, BENGALS GM ect? Yeah, you can't deny the fact that the patriots cheated this year, and they got caught. Their sucess in my position, is tarnished somehow, you can't say they didn't cheat or they did cheat.. But, ask yourself this question... They almost got caught during the 2006-2007 season(SEE BILLS and packers complaining.) And they got caught this year. Wouldn't they have used this for many years? I think you didn't see that quote :

Marinelli was the defensive line coach in Tampa Bay when the Bucs beat the Patriots in the 2000 regular season opener and did a good job controlling New England's offense. After the game the Patriots' offensive coach, Charlie Weis, was overheard congratulating the Bucs' defensive coordinator, Monte Kiffin.

"We knew all your calls, and you still stopped us," Weis said. "I can't believe it."

He couldn't believe it because the Patriots had videotaped all of the defensive signals in their last preseason game, which was against the Bucs.

They were better, is that working for you? See,THE STEELHERS, as you call, didn't cheat like your "CHEATIES"!

Man... This is getting way more funnier :uni:


EDIT: OUTSIDE OF THE CHEATING... I think the Patriots had one of the best Front Offices in the NFl since B.B became the HC, they did a marginal job with all their players, and during those Super Bowls years, they were a very talented team. Though, I think their sucess is tarnished and that's my point of view. That's all.

I can understand if Pats fans can defend this, since its their team... But hey, everyone has their opinions, and this is forum.. So we can discuss them.


And this'll be my last response towards this thread. I just feel that reposting again and again would be a waste of time, since you Pats fans have your opinion, when I have mine. We'll never get on the same line on that subject, and I respect that. Also, I don't want to feel like an ass, soooo...........

You won't see TZ posting in this thread.

Edited by TravisZajac, 08 November 2007 - 05:38 PM.

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#38 Devils731

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Posted 08 November 2007 - 11:32 PM

I was reading an article on ESPN that quoted players across decades complaining about other teams stealing their signs. It happens all the time I'm sure, just as I always tried to do when I played any sport.
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#39 harpua19

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 01:30 AM

we need some noise
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#40 LOTCB

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 01:34 PM

Something I find ironic given Shula's comments about an asterisk should be next to the Pats* season should they go undefeated...just look at the logo for yourself:

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Edited by LOTCB, 09 November 2007 - 01:36 PM.

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Truly, The Anti-Regier





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