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Christmas, Even HR Is Scared


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#61 Eltab213

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Posted 28 December 2007 - 01:30 AM

It is one of my many hopes in life to see Christmas lose its status as a Federal holiday. There is no reason for it. We have a secular government for a reason. To borrow a line from LouLam1, if you want a religious government move to Saudi Arabia.

Among other things I want to live to see:
- New Jersey taking away Good Friday as a state holiday
- US Mail to resume Sunday delivery

The fact is that the whole idea that the founding fathers were devout Christians and intended for this country to reflect that has no basis in reality. It is merely a ploy used by the religious right to try to rationalize their beliefs. The founding fathers were by and large Deists who went out of their way to avoid mixing religion into their government.
ETA:


-I would like to see the days of the week renamed, since they are named after gods. The government uses these names everday, and we cant have the government being invaded with religious symbols or names.

-The removal of Martin Luther King day as a federal holiday, since much of what he preached was filled with religious belief. We cant celebrate a man whos life revolved around religion.

-New Years Eve removed as a federal holiday. It celebrates the beginning of the Gregorian Calendar year. A calendar which was devised by a pope.

-Thanksgiving should no longer be a federal holiday, as it was originally celebrated as a day of thanksgiving to God.

-Columbus Day should be removed as well. Columbus spread Catholicism throughout the new world, and should not be celebrated because of that fact.

-Independence Day, in fact, the Declaration of Independence itself, should not be celebrated as it notes that humans are "endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights," along with other references to God. Again, we shouldnt celebrate a document, or its declaration, when it proclaims that a God exists.

There are more things I would like to see, but it would take too long to list them all.
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#62 RowdyFan42

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Posted 28 December 2007 - 02:19 AM

- US Mail to resume Sunday delivery

Never gonna happen. Costs too much. I wouldn't be surprised to see Saturday delivery eliminated during our lifetimes for the same reason.

-I would like to see the days of the week renamed, since they are named after gods. The government uses these names everday, and we cant have the government being invaded with religious symbols or names.

-The removal of Martin Luther King day as a federal holiday, since much of what he preached was filled with religious belief. We cant celebrate a man whos life revolved around religion.

-New Years Eve removed as a federal holiday. It celebrates the beginning of the Gregorian Calendar year. A calendar which was devised by a pope.

-Thanksgiving should no longer be a federal holiday, as it was originally celebrated as a day of thanksgiving to God.

-Columbus Day should be removed as well. Columbus spread Catholicism throughout the new world, and should not be celebrated because of that fact.

-Independence Day, in fact, the Declaration of Independence itself, should not be celebrated as it notes that humans are "endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights," along with other references to God. Again, we shouldnt celebrate a document, or its declaration, when it proclaims that a God exists.

There are more things I would like to see, but it would take too long to list them all.

My sarcasm meter just exploded. Well done. :boogie:
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#63 Nature's Minister

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Posted 28 December 2007 - 08:53 AM

-I would like to see the days of the week renamed, since they are named after gods. The government uses these names everday, and we cant have the government being invaded with religious symbols or names.

-The removal of Martin Luther King day as a federal holiday, since much of what he preached was filled with religious belief. We cant celebrate a man whos life revolved around religion.

-New Years Eve removed as a federal holiday. It celebrates the beginning of the Gregorian Calendar year. A calendar which was devised by a pope.

-Thanksgiving should no longer be a federal holiday, as it was originally celebrated as a day of thanksgiving to God.

-Columbus Day should be removed as well. Columbus spread Catholicism throughout the new world, and should not be celebrated because of that fact.

-Independence Day, in fact, the Declaration of Independence itself, should not be celebrated as it notes that humans are "endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights," along with other references to God. Again, we shouldnt celebrate a document, or its declaration, when it proclaims that a God exists.

There are more things I would like to see, but it would take too long to list them all.


1. Hasn't had a religious context in 1600 years.

2. Civil rights movement wasn't inherently religious and had a profound impact on our nation.

3. Basically every culture has adopted the calendar to a large extent, with slight altercations to notation. Furthermore, the Romans celebrated January 1 as a holiday, and, again, there hasn't been a religious context in over 1500 years.

4. Thanksgiving is a pretty controversial holiday as it is. Its removal wouldn't be a travesty.

5. See 4.

6. Not in the slightest a religious document beyond that passing mention. While they were religious people, they made clear there needs to be a separation of church and state.

I celebrate Christmas and I am happy that most people have the day off, but basically nothing you said related to the issue in the slightest. The question at hand regards whether it is appropriate for a secular state to openly celebrate religious holidays. A proper refutation would be that because the majority of Americans are Christian, and because working would interfere with the celebration of their most important holiday, and because the government will try to accommodate as much as possible the religious inclinations of the people whom they employ while maintaining as secular a body as possible, that it is more or less a matter of convenience to shut down the non-essential aspects of government rather than trying to operate clumsily with, at best, a skeleton staff of non-Christians or disgruntled workers who would rather be with family. That is to say that a government can recognize that its citizens are religious without being a religious body itself.

Edited by Nature's Minister, 28 December 2007 - 08:59 AM.

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#64 Jimmy Leeds

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Posted 28 December 2007 - 09:52 AM

Petey just proved how waaaaaayyyyyy out there he is.

The founding fathers did not "make clear" the separation of church and state, that is what the left has you believe. The state that there should be no federal/state based religion (I'm paraphrasing).

Now I'm on my way to New York to see the CHRISTMAS Tree
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#65 MantaRay

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Posted 28 December 2007 - 10:07 AM

Petey just proved how waaaaaayyyyyy out there he is.

The founding fathers did not "make clear" the separation of church and state, that is what the left has you believe. The state that there should be no federal/state based religion (I'm paraphrasing).

Now I'm on my way to New York to see the CHRISTMAS Tree



And you prove you have no idea of your own country's history. I know that you hate the document, but please read the Constitution:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

Edited by MantaRay, 28 December 2007 - 10:51 AM.

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#66 metallidevils

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Posted 28 December 2007 - 11:01 AM

Your an agnostic and a minority!



See, the great thing is, if Christianity is real, you're not going to heaven!
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#67 metallidevils

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Posted 28 December 2007 - 11:04 AM

Honestly if you're that sure of your faith, you shouldn't be worried that a lack of propaganda (Which I can assure you, is a figment of your imagination) is 'killing' Christmas. As long as Nintendo keeps making video games, Christmas is safe. You'd think turning water into wine or whatever would be reason enough to celebrate.
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#68 Devils731

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Posted 28 December 2007 - 11:04 AM

And you prove you have no idea of your own country's history. I know that you hate the document, but please read the Constitution:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."


Manta, you should know different people interpret that statement different ways. That definitely says the federal govt can not establish a religion and can not prohibit free exercise of religion but seperation of church and state comes from the writings of some founding fathers. I don't have it all on hand right now but there were differing opinions between founding fathers on that subject.
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#69 metallidevils

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Posted 28 December 2007 - 11:12 AM

-I would like to see the days of the week renamed, since they are named after gods. The government uses these names everday, and we cant have the government being invaded with religious symbols or names.

-The removal of Martin Luther King day as a federal holiday, since much of what he preached was filled with religious belief. We cant celebrate a man whos life revolved around religion.

-New Years Eve removed as a federal holiday. It celebrates the beginning of the Gregorian Calendar year. A calendar which was devised by a pope.

-Thanksgiving should no longer be a federal holiday, as it was originally celebrated as a day of thanksgiving to God.

-Columbus Day should be removed as well. Columbus spread Catholicism throughout the new world, and should not be celebrated because of that fact.

-Independence Day, in fact, the Declaration of Independence itself, should not be celebrated as it notes that humans are "endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights," along with other references to God. Again, we shouldnt celebrate a document, or its declaration, when it proclaims that a God exists.

There are more things I would like to see, but it would take too long to list them all.


Everyone living in America today is affected by all of these things, and possibly would not even be here today if it wasn't for these events. (Well, New Years Eve is just another Hallmark Holiday essentially, there's no actual 'importance' but I've never really heard anyone complaining about 2 days off). But Christmas and Good Friday? That's completely different. At least the things you mentioned actually happened, and we don't have to rely on 'faith' that they happened. That's really my main problem with it. The fact that we have national holidays based on (to each his own, and I would never try convincing you otherwise) fairy tales.

Edited by metallidevils, 28 December 2007 - 11:13 AM.

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#70 MantaRay

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Posted 28 December 2007 - 11:46 AM

Manta, you should know different people interpret that statement different ways. That definitely says the federal govt can not establish a religion and can not prohibit free exercise of religion but seperation of church and state comes from the writings of some founding fathers. I don't have it all on hand right now but there were differing opinions between founding fathers on that subject.


Valid statement 731.

But, Thomas Jefferson made an interpretation of the 1st Amendment to his January 1st, 1802 letter to the Committee of the Danbury Baptist Association calling it a "wall of separation between church and State."

Madison had also written that "Strongly guarded. . . is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States."

There existed little controversy about this interpretation from our Founding Fathers.
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#71 PeteyNice

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Posted 28 December 2007 - 11:48 AM

I give it a B+.

-I would like to see the days of the week renamed, since they are named after gods. The government uses these names everday, and we cant have the government being invaded with religious symbols or names.


At home we still refer to the days of the week based on their number (Sunday is First Day, etc). The religious connotations of the days of the week have fallen so far away that I don't see that as a problem. I never considered mythology to be religion.

-The removal of Martin Luther King day as a federal holiday, since much of what he preached was filled with religious belief. We cant celebrate a man whos life revolved around religion.


We don't celebrate his religious accomplishments. We celebrate his secular work in the Civil Rights Movement.

-New Years Eve removed as a federal holiday. It celebrates the beginning of the Gregorian Calendar year. A calendar which was devised by a pope.


Done. New Year's Eve is not a federal holiday.


-Thanksgiving should no longer be a federal holiday, as it was originally celebrated as a day of thanksgiving to God.


The Pilgrim Thanksgiving was more about paying back the Indians than anything religious, but if you feel it has too much religious connotation then it is out as well.

-Columbus Day should be removed as well. Columbus spread Catholicism throughout the new world, and should not be celebrated because of that fact.


Like Dr. King we celebrate Columbus for his secular achievements. If he found America on a missionary trip then I would agree but he didn't.

-Independence Day, in fact, the Declaration of Independence itself, should not be celebrated as it notes that humans are "endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights," along with other references to God. Again, we shouldnt celebrate a document, or its declaration, when it proclaims that a God exists.


We aren't celebrating a document. We are celebrating the idea that England can go screw.


The founding fathers did not "make clear" the separation of church and state, that is what the left has you believe. The state that there should be no federal/state based religion (I'm paraphrasing).


OK. Now think about that Leeds. You claim that we are a "Christian nation". Now, if the founding fathers wanted a Christian Nation would they have a) declared Chistianity the official religion of all the land or b) said, there is no state religion and whatever you want to do is cool with us.

And there were very few founding fathers who were openly Christian. Many of them, Jefferson is an excellent example, railed against religion every chance he had. The seperation of church and state is not some fiction that we devised to marginalize Christianity. It is real and is mentioned in the writings of many of the founding fathers.It was one of their primary concerns that religion would intertwine with government.
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#72 Devils Pride 26

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Posted 28 December 2007 - 03:34 PM

-I would like to see the days of the week renamed, since they are named after gods. The government uses these names everday, and we cant have the government being invaded with religious symbols or names.

-The removal of Martin Luther King day as a federal holiday, since much of what he preached was filled with religious belief. We cant celebrate a man whos life revolved around religion.

-New Years Eve removed as a federal holiday. It celebrates the beginning of the Gregorian Calendar year. A calendar which was devised by a pope.

-Thanksgiving should no longer be a federal holiday, as it was originally celebrated as a day of thanksgiving to God.

-Columbus Day should be removed as well. Columbus spread Catholicism throughout the new world, and should not be celebrated because of that fact.

-Independence Day, in fact, the Declaration of Independence itself, should not be celebrated as it notes that humans are "endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights," along with other references to God. Again, we shouldnt celebrate a document, or its declaration, when it proclaims that a God exists.

There are more things I would like to see, but it would take too long to list them all.



Dont forget taking out "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance.
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#73 MantaRay

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Posted 28 December 2007 - 04:57 PM

Dont forget taking out "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance.



Ah yes, FEAR THE RUSSIANS! Funny how the same "fear" tactics are just repeated over and over through the years and the same type of people are conned by it.

It should be noted that the phrase "under god" in the pledge of allegiance was found to be unconstitutional.
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#74 LOULAM1

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Posted 28 December 2007 - 09:06 PM

Ah yes, FEAR THE RUSSIANS! Funny how the same "fear" tactics are just repeated over and over through the years and the same type of people are conned by it.

It should be noted that the phrase "under god" in the pledge of allegiance was found to be unconstitutional.


SantaRay, sound's like your a little mad at the Founding Fathers for providing you and the rest of us with the greatest blueprint for a nation ever conceived... the Constitution.

I'm glad we have individuals like you in this country that want God out and atheism in regards to transforming our Constitution. It reinforces my Christian beliefs along with the rest of the MAJORITY of true Americans who understand the importance of our Christian/Judaeu beliefs and what this nation was built upon... GOD!

Sends chills down your spine I'm sure, but remember this country was not built on atheism but rather love of all religions and also the acceptance of seperation of Church and State.
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#75 LOULAM1

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Posted 28 December 2007 - 09:16 PM

Charlie Brown Christmas Rules!

Edited by LOULAM1, 28 December 2007 - 09:19 PM.

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#76 Super 17

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Posted 28 December 2007 - 09:28 PM

SantaRay, sound's like your a little mad at the Founding Fathers for providing you and the rest of us with the greatest blueprint for a nation ever conceived... the Constitution.

I'm glad we have individuals like you in this country that want God out and atheism in regards to transforming our Constitution. It reinforces my Christian beliefs along with the rest of the MAJORITY of true Americans who understand the importance of our Christian/Judaeu beliefs and what this nation was built upon... GOD!

Sends chills down your spine I'm sure, but remember this country was not built on atheism but rather love of all religions and also the acceptance of seperation of Church and State.


“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” -Seneca
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#77 LOULAM1

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Posted 28 December 2007 - 09:51 PM

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” -Seneca


You want to throw Lenin and Stalin into the mix? They lasted a great long time along with their 60 million dead in no less than 30 years!

Stalin:

"America is like a healthy body and its resistance is threefold:
its patriotism, its morality, and its spiritual life.
If we can undermine these three areas,
America will collapse from within."

Edited by LOULAM1, 28 December 2007 - 09:53 PM.

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#78 Jimmy Leeds

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Posted 28 December 2007 - 10:06 PM

And you prove you have no idea of your own country's history. I know that you hate the document, but please read the Constitution:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

How clueless are you? We are saying the same thing. Do you disagree just to disagree? And I don't hate the document, I hate idiots.

It should be noted that the phrase "under god" in the pledge of allegiance was found to be unconstitutional.

Wasn't that by the America hating 9th Circuit?


Stalin:

"America is like a healthy body and its resistance is threefold:
its patriotism, its morality, and its spiritual life.
If we can undermine these three areas,
America will collapse from within."

Amazing how prophetic Stalin is.
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#79 MantaRay

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Posted 30 December 2007 - 09:47 AM

SantaRay, sound's like your a little mad at the Founding Fathers for providing you and the rest of us with the greatest blueprint for a nation ever conceived... the Constitution.



A blueprint that based on your writing here you detest.
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#80 HelenaHandbasket

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Posted 30 December 2007 - 04:56 PM

The "under God" part wasn't added until the Cold War as one of many inane things that were done to prove we were different from the godless Communists. I don't say it, I consider myself a traditionalist. ;)

Anyway, I don't see why people get so fussed over Chistmas. I think Christmas trees are pretty, and I like the music and the presents, but I haven't been to Mass in many, many years. On Christmas Day, I go to my relatives' house, where the Jews outnumber the lapsed Catholics, because otherwise I would never see them. The true meaning of Christmas is marketing and always has been. The early Christians saw an easy way to incorporate winter solstice celebrations and ease conversions. Faced with the same challenge today, they probably would have picked, like, Super Bowl Sunday. Jesus was almost certainly not born in December, but who cares? There are AWESOME parties! It's the same reason why Hanukkah rose to such outsize prominence. BRING ON THE PRESENTS!

More importantly, Christmas is not at all an important Christian holiday from a theological perspective. The only one that is is Easter. You believe Christ was the son of God and rose from the dead, or you don't. Whether Jesus was born in a manger or a five star hotel or 20,000 leagues under the sea is incidental. But the roiling, evil hordes of atheists, agnostics, Jews, Muslims, Zoroastrians, and what have you don't worry so much about Easter hams and Jelly Beans, because the LouLams of the world don't get all up in our faces about it.

My favorite political irony is that conservatives have a reputation for being all tough, but they are actually bed wetting babies who fear anything different from them and consequently lash out. Like my family and I are on their lawns burning Bibles. Whatever.
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