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#21 NJayDevil

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 11:48 AM

Pando, Holik, and Madden have all been wastes in many ways this season. Typing in caps doesn't change that. BTW, you missed defensive positioning, speed, stick speed, avoiding penalties, and purposefully ignored the PK part in your "all aspects" review of Pando and Holik. :lol:



Pando and Holik's speed both suck. Stick handling? Both suck (a Madden and Pando 2-on-1 is probably the most uneventful and wasteful 2-on-1 in the entire NHL). However Holik just skated right around Nieder last night in the corner and shrugged his stick and body off with his immense size. Avoiding penalties. Fine Pando's got that one. It's really great to pay someone $4million dollars to just avoid penalties and be totally invisible about there 58 out of the 60 minutes.

Holik adds snarl to a lineup that has lacked it since he left in '02. He provides size up the middle which has been proven to win championships and when his line gets deep into the offensive zone he can not be knocked off the puck.

I write in caps for a reason, to express anger. Pandolfo is worthless to this team nowadays. Sure you might speak of loyalty, but it's impossible to be loyal to everyone. He's far overpaid, and a waste of space out there. Holik at least creates space, and is used in front of the net on a PP from time to time.

A 2.5 million investment for only 2 years vs. a 4 million investment for what was is like 4 years. Imagine what Jay Pandolfo will be in 2 years? A fvcking dinosaur out there....
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#22 Devils731

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 11:53 AM

I didn't mean stick handling by stick speed, I meant his ability to clog passing lanes with his stick. So as I understand anything Pando does better than Holik isn't important(and they're not as important as goal scoring or offensive creativity) but all of the thing Holik brings are important...also Holik brings negatives with his play that Pando does bring. All in all I'd say Holik is contributing more than Pando to the team but not by very much. Holik and Pando's offensive numbers are very similar and Pando brings his defense and Holik brings his physical play while Pando has been a bad forechecker and Holik takes bad penalties.
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#23 Triumph

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 12:05 PM

Holik's 'snarl' is going to cost this team a win at least by the end of the year, so I hope he makes up for it in other ways. The only thing Holik has got going for him is that he's an even in +/-.

The only thing right now that makes Holik more valuable than Pandolfo is that Holik is a center and Pandolfo is a winger. Otherwise they have both been similarly unspectacular and a team with a decent minor league system could've replaced either one. Yes, Pandolfo is a solid penalty killer, and yes Holik brings 'snarl' and faceoff-winning ability, but both of these qualities are highly overvalued.
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#24 Risky

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 12:11 PM

We do have an embarrassment of riches in "old guys who can't score" on this team, but I think Holik is the probably the 4th biggest offender. Rupp is useless. Pandolfo is useless. Clarkson is really useless (I've never hated a Devil on this team quite the way I despise David Clarkson, who I call our "poor man's Matthew Barnaby."). Holik is probably next in line.

Madden is mostly useless but at least has flashes of offensive ability that at least require teams to respect him on a 2 on 1.

This team is scary bad on the offensive depth chart once you reach #15's name. He could probably make my list this year, too.

Thankfully, Parise, Elias and now Zajac are having years to remember. And that guy--what's his name--is coming back into the net soon.
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#25 Darwindog

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 12:22 PM

Holik/Madden/Rupp could be worth a try just to see -- chemistry could go either way. I don't think it would be the right long term fit for Madden even remotely.

No one is seeing Madden's game clearly at all are they? Why is it always me - a dog - who can see these things?

IMO Holik, Rupp, Pando - they are what they are -- right now Madden needs some tweaking to live up too his full potential. Brylin had to go to Russia, Rafalski had to go to Detroit... Madden has to stay here and be built around a little, not relegated to old slow guy status - he needs to move to get the wheels going and then he hits his stride. If he has to lurch along with Jay or be held back for joy by the likes of Bob... GRRRRRR!!!! I can't stand the waste! Thank goodness Lou has the same frugal bent as I do...and a decent understanding of chemistry - and ability to listen!
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#26 Devils731

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 12:29 PM

Madden's gotten to play with a bunch of different people this season and his line has consistently been the worst on the ice most nights. Why should the Devils bother building around a 3rd or 4th line center who is an UFA at the end of the season? Madden's PK abilities have been suspect so far this year as well. Do we have to let Madden play with Elias so that we can make Madden's numbers go up or should the team relegate Madden to a smaller role, which is what they've been doing, to allow the effective players to play more often?
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#27 Triumph

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 12:33 PM

We do have an embarrassment of riches in "old guys who can't score" on this team, but I think Holik is the probably the 4th biggest offender. Rupp is useless. Pandolfo is useless. Clarkson is really useless (I've never hated a Devil on this team quite the way I despise David Clarkson, who I call our "poor man's Matthew Barnaby.").


uh, huh? clarkson has 8 goals and 8 assists halfway through the season. that's a solid contributor. he had some bad games early on in the year but he has gotten much better as the year has gone on.

mike rupp has been better than holik at just about every facet of the game this season.

This team is scary bad on the offensive depth chart once you reach #15's name. He could probably make my list this year, too.

Thankfully, Parise, Elias and now Zajac are having years to remember. And that guy--what's his name--is coming back into the net soon.


langenbrunner's got 30 points, i mean c'mon. he's probably only going to score 15 goals but he has been a pretty decent contributor too.

Edited by Triumph, 12 January 2009 - 12:34 PM.

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#28 Risky

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 12:37 PM

I'll give you Clarkson -- the guy just irritates me. Can't explain it. But really for the PP time he gets, he SHOULD have more points.

However Langenbrunner -- I'm sorry, but any forward in the position that he's in should get the number of assists that this man does. That's his job. And because he's El Capitan, I want to see more leadership out of the guy on the ice and off. He doesn't provide it.
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I've seen things you people wouldn't believe... Attack ships on fire off the shoulder
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All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in the rain.

#29 Darwindog

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 12:39 PM

Madden's gotten to play with a bunch of different people this season and his line has consistently been the worst on the ice most nights. Why should the Devils bother building around a 3rd or 4th line center who is an UFA at the end of the season? Madden's PK abilities have been suspect so far this year as well. Do we have to let Madden play with Elias so that we can make Madden's numbers go up or should the team relegate Madden to a smaller role, which is what they've been doing, to allow the effective players to play more often?


Dont get yer panties in a bunch! Madden needs a linemate he can mentor. He's looking to find his new role - you're not going to find that line hopping. Yes he should be on a 3rd or 4th line - no arguing there - but he needs someone to mentor. Maybe Clarkson... I'm not sure because I don't really see how Clarkson listens.
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#30 SC Devs Fan

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 12:55 PM

Holik is probably great in the locker room and on the ice as a leader, but there is no doubt his words would carry more weight if he was putting the puck in the net more then he is.
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#31 Triumph

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 01:08 PM

I'll give you Clarkson -- the guy just irritates me. Can't explain it. But really for the PP time he gets, he SHOULD have more points.


that whole 2nd power play is a mess. you've got brian gionta out by the top of the circles where he doesn't belong and some combination of oduya, martin, and langenbrunner on the points. i can see why clarkson would irritate you - to me he seems like a good guy but he is outright stupid.

However Langenbrunner -- I'm sorry, but any forward in the position that he's in should get the number of assists that this man does. That's his job. And because he's El Capitan, I want to see more leadership out of the guy on the ice and off. He doesn't provide it.


how do you know what leadership he provides off the ice?
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#32 Risky

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 01:17 PM

The evidence is all there and has been for some time. I obviously have no way of knowing but Scott Stevens this guy is not and while this is not the 03 Devils, there are plenty of things that we do in the Langenbrunner era that we never did in the Stevens era. Stevens led by example. With Langenbrunner it seems more "do as I say, not as I do."
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I've seen things you people wouldn't believe... Attack ships on fire off the shoulder
of Orion. I've watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser Gate.
All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in the rain.

#33 DaneykoIsGod

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 04:09 PM

This is the kind of stuff that makes me glad we signed him.


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#34 welcometotherock

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 04:22 PM

This is the kind of stuff that makes me glad we signed him.


"Luckily it was Mike Mottau shooting the puck, and he couldnt hurt a fly with that shot" :rofl:
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#35 Jas0nMacIsaac

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 05:57 PM

Alot of the stuff Holik does will not show up on the scoresheet. He created a tempo thats Devils usually continue throughout the game. He wins key faceoffs and he is one of the largest physical presences up the middle in the NHL. Yes he takes penalties but in a 7 game series he will be the difference come game 5, 6 and 7. He knows how to win also, he knows what it takes to win. He just came back from an injury also, give him a few more games to round back into shape.
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#36 Prucenterrules

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 06:00 PM

Alot of the stuff Holik does will not show up on the scoresheet. He created a tempo thats Devils usually continue throughout the game. He wins key faceoffs and he is one of the largest physical presences up the middle in the NHL. Yes he takes penalties but in a 7 game series he will be the difference come game 5, 6 and 7. He knows how to win also, he knows what it takes to win. He just came back from an injury also, give him a few more games to round back into shape.


Yeah I can't wait to see what he can do for us in the playoffs this season.
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#37 Jas0nMacIsaac

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 06:02 PM

Holik's 'snarl' is going to cost this team a win at least by the end of the year, so I hope he makes up for it in other ways. The only thing Holik has got going for him is that he's an even in +/-.

The only thing right now that makes Holik more valuable than Pandolfo is that Holik is a center and Pandolfo is a winger. Otherwise they have both been similarly unspectacular and a team with a decent minor league system could've replaced either one. Yes, Pandolfo is a solid penalty killer, and yes Holik brings 'snarl' and faceoff-winning ability, but both of these qualities are highly overvalued.


Common Tri, you know the veterans like Madden, Pandolfo and Holik will show up in the clutch. Like I said in my last post they know how to win, thats something that can not be taught. Come playoffs we are going to have 4 extremely strong lines rolling night in and night out. No team in the East can match us in that category. We are going to make the finals with this team, I haven't had this feeling about a team since 01. The only weak spot is a PP quarterback to create plays. I still think Elias would be our best bet at this point.
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#38 Cowutopia

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 06:34 PM

Zajac and Parise have both given Langs a ton of credit in keeping them calm and steady when they get emotional, and he seems to be leading fairly well amongst the young guys.

Older guys...I don't know. We have so much experience in the room now, how much is Langs responsible for the team and how much = these guys being accountable for themselves?
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#39 Triumph

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 06:46 PM

Common Tri, you know the veterans like Madden, Pandolfo and Holik will show up in the clutch. Like I said in my last post they know how to win, thats something that can not be taught. Come playoffs we are going to have 4 extremely strong lines rolling night in and night out. No team in the East can match us in that category. We are going to make the finals with this team, I haven't had this feeling about a team since 01. The only weak spot is a PP quarterback to create plays. I still think Elias would be our best bet at this point.


look, this is nonsense - i mean i know they are leaders, and they 'know how to win', but there is going to be a point in these guys careers when veterans or not they are simply not going to be NHL players, and that seems like it is sooner rather than later.

on paper we have 4 strong lines. on the ice we have bobby holik who looks like his career is about over, and jay pandolfo and john madden who've aged 3 years over the summer. and i don't have too much confidence that these guys simply have a switch to turn on. my problem with holik is that he hasn't been close to the 'force' we were promised in the off-season. he just looks lost these last few games and his line is accomplishing nothing.

Edited by Triumph, 12 January 2009 - 06:53 PM.

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#40 LOULAM1

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 06:57 PM

Alot of the stuff Holik does will not show up on the scoresheet. He created a tempo thats Devils usually continue throughout the game. He wins key faceoffs and he is one of the largest physical presences up the middle in the NHL. Yes he takes penalties but in a 7 game series he will be the difference come game 5, 6 and 7. He knows how to win also, he knows what it takes to win. He just came back from an injury also, give him a few more games to round back into shape.


Great post! Does everything above that you mentioned including give the rest of the team a chance to rest when Cangelosi needs somebody to interview between periods.

He's a bargain! He could have signed elsewhere for more $ but I think Lou respects the fact that he knows the game, and although he is not the best skater on the ice (shot etc..) he will be apart of the Devs organization for years to come in some capacity off the ice.

Faceoffs are key and he's one of the best.
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