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#1 matcat1116

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Posted 16 June 2009 - 04:52 PM

If George W. Bush had made a joke at the expense of the Special
Olympics, would you have approved?

If George W. Bush had given Gordon Brown a set of inexpensive and
incorrectly formatted DVDs, when Gordon Brown had given him a thoughtful
and historically significant gift, would you have approved?

If George W. Bush had given the Queen of England an iPod containing
videos of his speeches, would you have thought this embarrassingly
narcissistic and tacky?

If George W. Bush had bowed to the King of Saudi Arabia, would you have
approved?

If George W. Bush had visited Austria and made reference to the
non-existent "Austrian language," would you have brushed it off as a
minor slip?

If George W. Bush had filled his cabinet and circle of advisers with
people who cannot seem to keep current on their income taxes, would you
have approved?

If George W. Bush had been so Spanish illiterate as to refer to "Cinco
de Cuatro" in front of the Mexican ambassador when it was the fourth of
May (Cuatro de Mayo), and continued to flub it when he tried again,
would you have winced in embarrassment?

If George W. Bush had mis-spelled the word advice would you have
hammered him for it for years like Dan Quayle and potatoe as "proof" of
what a dunce he is?

If George W. Bush had burned 9,000 gallons of jet fuel to go plant a
single tree on "Earth Day", would you have concluded he's a hypocrite?

If George W. Bush's administration had okayed Air Force One flying low
over millions of people followed by a jet fighter in downtown Manhattan
causing widespread panic, would you have wondered whether they actually
"get" what happened on 9-11?

If George W. Bush had been the first President to need a teleprompter
installed to be able to get through a press conference, would you have
laughed and said this is more proof of how he is inept he is on his own
and is really controlled by smarter men behind the scenes?

If George W. Bush had failed to send relief aid to flood victims
throughout the Midwest with more people killed or made homeless than in
New Orleans , would you want it made into a major ongoing political
issue with claims of racism and incompetence?

If George W. Bush had ordered the firing of the CEO of a major
corporation, even though he had no constitutional authority to do so,
would you have approved?

If George W. Bush had proposed to double the national debt, which had
taken more than two centuries to accumulate, in one year, would you have
approved?

If George W. Bush had then proposed to double the debt again within 10
years, would you have approved?

If George W. Bush asserted that “We already saved 600,000 jobs”, would you have accused him of pulling numbers out of thin air?

If George W. Bush had flown three aircraft to New York City to take Laura to a broadway play at a cost of $24,000 per aircraft at the same time GM and Chrysler were going bankrupt and unemployment was at 10% would you have accused him of being wasteful with taxpayer money?

If George W Bush had a few months earlier accused GM and Chrysler of wasting taxpayer money to fly to Washington for hearings on bailouts would you have accused him of being a hypocrite?

So, tell me again, what is it about Obama that makes him so brilliant and impressive?
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#2 squishyx

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Posted 16 June 2009 - 05:03 PM

Half that list is so trivial I haven't even heard about it (blah blah queue the "thats because Bush didn't do it!" rhetoric). I'm going to be honest with you; I would take that list times thousand other petty little insignificant things you could come up with over just the Iraq war. If I could trade Obama's entire presidency, his historic campaign et all to get those 5,000 soldiers lives back, I would take it in a heart beat.

I don't care if he ends up being a mediocre president, or lives up the moniker of messiah, he doesn't need to be outstanding to surpass the last disgrace we had in office.
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#3 SC Devs Fan

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Posted 16 June 2009 - 06:11 PM

Half that list is so trivial I haven't even heard about it (blah blah queue the "thats because Bush didn't do it!" rhetoric). I'm going to be honest with you; I would take that list times thousand other petty little insignificant things you could come up with over just the Iraq war. If I could trade Obama's entire presidency, his historic campaign et all to get those 5,000 soldiers lives back, I would take it in a heart beat.

I don't care if he ends up being a mediocre president, or lives up the moniker of messiah, he doesn't need to be outstanding to surpass the last disgrace we had in office.

That's it squish, strive for mediocrity. Just do better then the last guy and feel like you did a good job.

And I'm surprised you didn't go all the way back to the Vietnam war to try to drum up support. The 5000 deaths have nothing to do with the list above but good job of you to once again deflect from the shortcomings of Obama by still attacking Bush.
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#4 eaglejelly

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Posted 16 June 2009 - 06:12 PM

If George W. Bush had ordered torture and disgraced the US by doing so, would you have approved?
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#5 Jimmy Leeds

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Posted 16 June 2009 - 06:18 PM

If George W. Bush had ordered torture and disgraced the US by doing so, would you have approved?

Yes.

If we had actually tortured someone to save Americans.

Absolutely.

Waterboarding is not torture.
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#6 Super 17

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Posted 16 June 2009 - 06:22 PM

Yes.

If we had actually tortured someone to save Americans.

Absolutely.

Waterboarding is not torture.


Do you have evidence?
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#7 squishyx

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Posted 16 June 2009 - 06:26 PM

That's it squish, strive for mediocrity. Just do better then the last guy and feel like you did a good job.

And I'm surprised you didn't go all the way back to the Vietnam war to try to drum up support. The 5000 deaths have nothing to do with the list above but good job of you to once again deflect from the shortcomings of Obama by still attacking Bush.

The whole thread is about comparing Obama to Bush! lol
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#8 Jimmy Leeds

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Posted 16 June 2009 - 06:31 PM

Do you have evidence?

What?

Are you kidding?

Or are you just sucking in all the liberal talking points you can?
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#9 squishyx

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Posted 16 June 2009 - 06:48 PM

What?

Are you kidding?

Or are you just sucking in all the liberal talking points you can?

Why has every person who has experienced water boarding claimed its torture then? And the only people saying it isn't... at this point is basically just you and Hannity (who has yet to follow through on his promise to do it).

Edited by squishyx, 16 June 2009 - 06:48 PM.

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#10 SC Devs Fan

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Posted 16 June 2009 - 07:04 PM

The whole thread is about comparing Obama to Bush! lol

Funny I thought it was pointing out mistakes Obama made
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#11 squishyx

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Posted 16 June 2009 - 07:10 PM

Funny I thought it was pointing out mistakes Obama made

Pretty sure it says "What if George Bush..." before every point. If it had nothing to do with Bush I would imagine they could have just listed what they felt Obama did wrong, ya?
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#12 oofrostonoo

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Posted 16 June 2009 - 07:14 PM

The only way bush could make a joke of the special olympics is if he tests positive for steroids before he competes.
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#13 Super 17

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Posted 16 June 2009 - 07:15 PM

What?

Are you kidding?

Or are you just sucking in all the liberal talking points you can?


You didn't answer my question.

No evidence then huh?

What liberal talking points? Asking for evidence is a liberal talking point?

Edited by Super 17, 16 June 2009 - 07:23 PM.

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#14 devilsadvoc8

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Posted 16 June 2009 - 08:07 PM

Since some are too obtuse and blinded from their hero worship, it will have to be explained further.

The last several years of the Bush administration were a nitpick fest of immense proportions. Yes, the war in Iraq was a big item but since some people here choose to conveniently forget, some Dems voted for it (and its funding) as well. Some claim to that these items are trivial and I agree that some are, by themselves. However, it is mindboggling that in 5 months, this is the list of gaffes by the media created messiah.

Some of you are being completely disengenuous if you say that you wouldn't have mocked or started a thread 12 months ago if GWB had dones these things. A word comes to mind, hypocrite, yeah that's it.
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#15 squishyx

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Posted 16 June 2009 - 08:14 PM

Since some are too obtuse and blinded from their hero worship, it will have to be explained further.

The last several years of the Bush administration were a nitpick fest of immense proportions. Yes, the war in Iraq was a big item but since some people here choose to conveniently forget, some Dems voted for it (and its funding) as well. Some claim to that these items are trivial and I agree that some are, by themselves. However, it is mindboggling that in 5 months, this is the list of gaffes by the media created messiah.

Some of you are being completely disengenuous if you say that you wouldn't have mocked or started a thread 12 months ago if GWB had dones these things. A word comes to mind, hypocrite, yeah that's it.

1/3rd of this list is just wrong or misleading.
Another 1/3rd are things we wouldn't bother poking fun at Bush or even care about
And the last 1/3rd Obama deserves criticism, heckling, w/e you want to call it, just like Bush did.

None of which even come close to actual important things like the stimulus, health care reform, the Iraq war, Hurricane Katrina debacle etc.
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#16 devilsadvoc8

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Posted 16 June 2009 - 08:54 PM

Trying to be fair, the only "up for debate items" are the bowing and the inner circle of tax morons. I think the teleprompter one is a cheap shot. Other than that it is all pretty much fact/supported
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#17 squishyx

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Posted 16 June 2009 - 09:11 PM

Trying to be fair, the only "up for debate items" are the bowing and the inner circle of tax morons. I think the teleprompter one is a cheap shot. Other than that it is all pretty much fact/supported

In the same context of being "fair" this is how I viewed it, I'll abbreviate to keep it small...

List where he deserves a fair kick in the ass for, that people would poke fun at Bush for as well
special olym joke
the Cinco de Cuatro thing (didn't know of this)
Austrian language (didn't know of this)
Advice spelling mistake (didn't know of this)
saved jobs statement - he should really qualify this statement with facts

Things that are just wrong
tax stuff, only one (maybe two) people actually had tax problems, everyone else bailed before confirmation
airforce one thing, he didn't approve it, and fired the guy who did
flood - totally false, or at least lacking a credible source for a strong claim, thousands died during katrina.
ceo firing, he didn't order it, if this is about GM then he asked him to step down, big difference.
debt x2 - again, 100% fake. people often confuse "debt" with "deficit". he doubled the deficit, he has only slightly increased the debt

Stupid things that no one should really care about, regardless of president
Brown's dvd's
the queens Ipod (didn't know of this)
Saudi Bow
earth day (as devilsh34[I think] once said, the cost of travel of the president is what it is)
teleprompter
broadway* - this maybe could have gone in the first list
GM/Chrys flying, the president flies places, thats life.

If I missed anything it wasn't on purpose. The only factual thing on the entire list that I agree with is a pretty serious offense to the American people is to quote "saved jobs". By itself it isn't bad but he needs to back it up with how he is calculating it, who is calculating it and show real evidence, until then it's a very bush-league (pun?) maneuver.

Edited by squishyx, 16 June 2009 - 09:11 PM.

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#18 devilsfan26

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Posted 17 June 2009 - 12:04 AM

That's it squish, strive for mediocrity. Just do better then the last guy and feel like you did a good job.

Welcome to the glorious two-party system.
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#19 eaglejelly

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Posted 17 June 2009 - 09:51 AM

Yes.
Waterboarding is not torture.


LINK
Waterboarding is considered to be torture by a wide range of authorities, including legal experts,[2][3][30] politicians, war veterans,[4][5] intelligence officials,[8] military judges,[9] and human rights organizations.[10][11] David Miliband, the United Kingdom Foreign Secretary described it as torture on July 19, 2008, and stated "the UK unreservedly condemns the use of torture."[31] Arguments have been put forward that it might not be torture in all cases, or that it is unclear.[32][33][34][35] The U.S. State Department has recognized "submersion of the head in water" as torture in other circumstances, for example, in its 2005 Country Report on Tunisia.[36]

Edited by eaglejelly, 17 June 2009 - 09:52 AM.

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#20 Jimmy Leeds

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Posted 17 June 2009 - 11:01 AM

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed
Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was waterboarded 183 times while being interrogated by the CIA, and is the person who has survived the most waterboarding sessions.[125] According to the Bush administration, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed divulged information of tremendous value during his detention. He is said to have helped point the way to the capture of Riduan Isamuddin (AKA Hambali), the Indonesian terrorist responsible for the 2002 bombings of night clubs in Bali. According to the Bush administration, he also provided information on an Al Qaeda leader in England.[126]

During a radio interview on October 24, 2006, with Scott Hennen of radio station WDAY, Vice President Dick Cheney seemed to agree with the use of waterboarding.[127][128]

The administration later denied that Cheney had confirmed the use of waterboarding, saying that U.S. officials do not talk publicly about interrogation techniques because they are classified. White House Press Secretary Tony Snow said that Cheney was not referring to waterboarding, but only to a "dunk in the water", prompting one reporter to ask, "So dunk in the water means, what, we have a pool now at Guantanamo and they go swimming?" Tony Snow replied, "You doing stand-up?"[129]

On September 13, 2007, ABC News reported that a former intelligence officer stated that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed had been waterboarded in the presence of a female CIA supervisor.[130]

Captured along with Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was a letter from bin Laden which led officials to think that he knew where the Al Qaeda founder was hiding.[131][132]

According to sources familiar with a private interview of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, he claimed to have been waterboarded five times.[126] A CIA official told ABC News that "he had been water-boarded, and had won the admiration of his interrogators because it took him two to two-and-half minutes to start confessing—well beyond the average of 14 seconds observed in others".[133] This is disputed by two former CIA officers who are reportedly friends with one of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's interrogators. The officers called this "bravado" and claimed that he was waterboarded only once. According to one of the officers, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed needed only to be shown the drowning equipment again before he "broke". "Waterboarding works", the former officer said. "Drowning is a baseline fear. So is falling. People dream about it. It's human nature. Suffocation is a very scary thing. When you're waterboarded, you're inverted, so it exacerbates the fear. It's not painful, but it scares the sh!t out of you". This former officer had been waterboarded himself in a training course. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, he claimed, "didn't resist. He sang right away. He cracked real quick". He said, "A lot of them want to talk. Their egos are unimaginable. [He] was just a little doughboy. He couldn't stand toe to toe and fight it out".[126] After being subjected to waterboarding, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed claimed involvement in thirty-one terrorist plots.[134]

On June 15, 2009, in response to a lawsuit by the ACLU, the government was forced disclose a previously classified portion of a CIA memo written in 2006 which recounted how Mohammed told the CIA that he "made up stories" to stop from being tortured.[135]


Abu Zubaida
Abu Zubaida was also waterboarded by the CIA.[16]

In 2002, U.S. intelligence located Abu Zubayda by tracing his phone calls. He was captured March 28, 2002, in a safehouse located in a two story apartment in Faisalabad, Pakistan. Participating in his interrogation were two American psychologists, James Elmer Mitchell and R. Scott Shumate.[136][137]

In December 2007, The Washington Post reported that there were some discrepancies regarding reports about the number of times Zubaida was waterboarded. According to a previous account by former CIA officer John Kiriakou, Abu Zubaida broke after just 35 seconds of waterboarding, which involved stretching cellophane over his mouth and nose and pouring water on his face to create the sensation of drowning.[138]

One of Abu Zubayda's interrogators, Ali Soufan, later testified to Congress that Zubayda was producing useful information in response to conventional interrogation methods and stopped providing accurate information in response to torture.[139] Ali Soufon, also one of the FBI's most successful interrogators, explained " "When they are in pain, people will say anything to get the pain to stop. Most of the time, they will lie, make up anything to make you stop hurting them. That means the information you're getting is useless."[140]


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