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A plane crashed on September 22, 2004


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#41 Devils731

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 12:45 PM

I haven't loved either episode so far this season.
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#42 UnderDogX

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 05:54 PM

The second episode always seems to be a let down and I haven't been a real fan of any Kate-centric eppy anyway....I'm sure it'll pick right back up next week...plus it'll get a little taking used to having questions answered instead of just asked....
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#43 Devils731

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Posted 17 February 2010 - 01:34 PM

Last nights episode was the first one of the new season I really liked
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Your unconditional rejection of violence makes you smugly think of yourselves as noble, as enlightened, but in reality it is nothing less than abject moral capitulation to evil. Unconditional rejection of self-defense, because you think its a supposed surrender to violence, leaves you no resort but begging for mercy or offering appeasement.

-Terry Goodkind


Sex Panther cologne -- 50 percent of the time, it works every time.

-Anchorman

The best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago. The second best time is now.

-Anonymous

Keeper of Section 212-213's wayward step

#44 95Crash

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 08:28 PM

Last two episodes were pretty decent, I thought. ... Hope Sayid becomes a good guy again. And Claire too. ... Too bad Kate and Sawyer have become kind of lame. ... Miles has had some good one-liners. He's even funnier than Hurley. ... Where the hell is Desmond?
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#45 metallidevils

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 09:44 PM

the last two were fantastic. claire is such a badass.
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#46 skullsmasher

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 04:43 PM

the last two were fantastic. claire is such a badass.


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#47 RSC

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 06:38 PM

"Still hot though."

Greatest line in television history.
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#48 Pepperkorn

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Posted 10 March 2010 - 09:24 AM

:wub: I thought Dr. Linus was the most endearing episode. If that's the end for Ben I'm really happy - it's nice message too that our human weaknesses do not mean damnation. Not like it's all that deep but it was cute!
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#49 UnderDogX

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Posted 23 March 2010 - 10:48 PM

Amazing episode tonight and it answer a few big questions...one question which finally gave an answer to a question people kept hemming and hawing about...but I'll discuss more once everyone has had a chance to watch!!! :)
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#50 RSC

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Posted 24 March 2010 - 05:34 PM

OK, so after last night, I've developed a new theory.

Jacob told Richard that the island was all that was keeping Smokey from leaving the island, which would then essentially create hell on earth. In the other reality where the plane doesn't crash, the island is destroyed. Therefore I think that all of the characters are in what they would consider their own personal hell:

Jack has a terrible relationship with his son, like his father had with him (though that was remedied at the end).

Kate gets caught.

Sawyer is a cop, which in the 1st plane of reality, he would hate himself for.

Locke is in his wheelchair.

Charlie's on drugs still.

Ben has no power that in the first reality he so desperately craves, though Alex is happy in the end.

Hurley has his money, though to be fair, he is very successful...which I think he would dislike in the first plane of reality

Jin and Sun are together, but their marriage is in shambles.

The Japanese guy from the temple lives in California, therefore he must speak English, which he has stated he dislikes because it feels dirty on his tongue (this may be a bit of a stretch).

So that's my new theory about the 2nd universe. What do you guys think?
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#51 devilsrule33

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Posted 24 March 2010 - 06:04 PM

OK, so after last night, I've developed a new theory.

Jacob told Richard that the island was all that was keeping Smokey from leaving the island, which would then essentially create hell on earth. In the other reality where the plane doesn't crash, the island is destroyed. Therefore I think that all of the characters are in what they would consider their own personal hell:

Jack has a terrible relationship with his son, like his father had with him (though that was remedied at the end).

Kate gets caught.

Sawyer is a cop, which in the 1st plane of reality, he would hate himself for.

Locke is in his wheelchair.

Charlie's on drugs still.

Ben has no power that in the first reality he so desperately craves, though Alex is happy in the end.

Hurley has his money, though to be fair, he is very successful...which I think he would dislike in the first plane of reality

Jin and Sun are together, but their marriage is in shambles.

The Japanese guy from the temple lives in California, therefore he must speak English, which he has stated he dislikes because it feels dirty on his tongue (this may be a bit of a stretch).

So that's my new theory about the 2nd universe. What do you guys think?


I would disagree with that because while not all of their lives are perfect, they certainly aren't in personal hell. In fact, a lot of their lives have improved. Sawyer is certainly living a much better life as a Cop than before the crash, where he was a con-man. Locke still is happily married with his wife and has a good relationship with his father. I would even say that Ben's life didn't turn out all that bad either. Hurley definitely has a good thing going for him.

Kate and Sayid still have very messed up lives.

Perhaps, your alternate life depends on whose side they each chose in this war between Jacob and Smokey. This is a theory that one TV critic has been floating around.
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#52 Zamode

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Posted 24 March 2010 - 11:35 PM

It's the last season and I'm still confused with the episodes left down to single digits :blink:
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#53 Devil Dan 56

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 02:28 PM

I would disagree with that because while not all of their lives are perfect, they certainly aren't in personal hell. In fact, a lot of their lives have improved. Sawyer is certainly living a much better life as a Cop than before the crash, where he was a con-man. Locke still is happily married with his wife and has a good relationship with his father. I would even say that Ben's life didn't turn out all that bad either. Hurley definitely has a good thing going for him.

Kate and Sayid still have very messed up lives.

Perhaps, your alternate life depends on whose side they each chose in this war between Jacob and Smokey. This is a theory that one TV critic has been floating around.


This is a good point.

It's clearly developing into the eternal 'good vs evil' struggle, and everyone is taking sides. I'm still not sure how Whitmore ties into that. They are looking for Jacob's replacement (Hurley or Jack I'm guessing), the Smoke is taking the form of Locke, and I'm wondering now if Richard is going to be 'replaced', possibly by Hurley. I can't help but think Sayid will be playing a huge role in the end of this whole mess after his lack of reaction to Kate being attacked. Also, it will be interesting to see where Sawyer ends up. Possibly the alternate reality contains clues to all of this?

And I miss Desmond.
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#54 Pepperkorn

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 05:55 PM

This is a good point.

It's clearly developing into the eternal 'good vs evil' struggle, and everyone is taking sides. I'm still not sure how Whitmore ties into that. They are looking for Jacob's replacement (Hurley or Jack I'm guessing), the Smoke is taking the form of Locke, and I'm wondering now if Richard is going to be 'replaced', possibly by Hurley. I can't help but think Sayid will be playing a huge role in the end of this whole mess after his lack of reaction to Kate being attacked. Also, it will be interesting to see where Sawyer ends up. Possibly the alternate reality contains clues to all of this?

And I miss Desmond.



I started worrying that since someone would just replace Jacob if he died then someone will have to just replace MIB if he dies/leaves the Island.

I also think Sun and Jin aren't married in the new reality...she went by her maiden name at customs - I dont think they're that modern. i just figured he was her body guard or something... that's still a pretty hot relationship! :uni:

I also don't think anyone is unhappy in the new timeline. I've been debating in my mind WHEN exactly the timeline is happening...maybe it's AFTER the on island stuff we're seeing now - like jughead didn't cause the new timeline but whatever happens in the finale does. I think that's too easy but that's more or less my thought.
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#55 UnderDogX

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 06:48 PM

I've kinda thought that maybe they are using the alt timeline as sort of an epilogue of sorts...once MiB is gone time resets and we are seeing life without the possibility of the island but it seems contrived and arbitrary.

I'm more of the opinion that its now kind of a fantastical wonderland that's going to melt before them all...everything will be good for the remaining candidates that are on the island...Jack IS the father he never had, Sawyer is on the right side of the law, Hurley is the luckiest man in the world, Sun (who I think is the candidate, not Jin) is gaining her independence...although I'm undecided on Sayid but maybe its because the 'darkness' has already overtaken him...maybe kind of like the perfect Matrix for the good guys that is going to come crashing down.

But I'm still sticking with my theory I've had since season 5 finale....we'll see Jack and "Locke" sitting and talking almost mirroring the first scene we saw of Jacob and MiB....Hurley will replace Richard and maybe Kate or Sawyer (whichever is still alive) will replace Ben/Whidmore as leader of the others...
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#56 95Crash

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 09:38 PM

I'm as confused as anyone as to what's going on. I mean I see the good vs. evil aspect, but anything more than that is total guesswork.

I do wonder, though, is there any possibility that the MIB is really the good guy and Jacob is really the bad guy -- that we've all been led to believe the opposite of what is true?
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#57 UnderDogX

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 10:49 PM

I'm as confused as anyone as to what's going on. I mean I see the good vs. evil aspect, but anything more than that is total guesswork.

I do wonder, though, is there any possibility that the MIB is really the good guy and Jacob is really the bad guy -- that we've all been led to believe the opposite of what is true?


While the fundamentals and the enjoyable part of the show is completely in the WTF aspect, i think, from a story perspective, the writers are really just trying to focus on Jack and Co. I think that the whole mythology of the island and the like is added to create a broader and more epic feel. To use the Matrix as an example again, I think that's where the movies failed, they had the story of Neo and then tried to make the sequels into this epic story about right, wrong, and this longstanding battle between man and machine but in turn completely destroyed the who, what, when, and why of the Neo story line...anyway, that's just my take on it...

As for the who's good and who's bad, I think it was a little ambiguous at first but last night's episode really cemented the answer, at least to me, within the final scene. Given what the writers told us in the scene with Jacob and Richard and the wine bottle only to have MiB break it in the final scene pretty much put a stamp on where Jacob and MiB are on the scale of good and bad, although they do tend to blend into shades of gray every so often.

of course the above is just a rant of randomness about the show because its tax season and the wife is working 12 hr days and no one at work watches Lost so I'm left to discuss this kind of thing with my 2 yr old who has just recently started running around the house with his big foam Devils hand screaming "lets go debilssss!!" :D
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#58 Devil Dan 56

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 11:13 PM

I'm as confused as anyone as to what's going on. I mean I see the good vs. evil aspect, but anything more than that is total guesswork.

I do wonder, though, is there any possibility that the MIB is really the good guy and Jacob is really the bad guy -- that we've all been led to believe the opposite of what is true?


If Jacob is meant to be a biblical reference, then there is the chance that the MIB is his fraternal twin brother Esau, which would explain the animosity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob
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#59 Pepperkorn

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 06:32 AM

As for good and bad -- I think we have no way of knowing. The castaways have to listen to their inner selves and not listen to what either dude has to tell them.

As far as guessing who's good and who's bad based on face value up to now ... nearly impossible. I started thinking this could be like Frailty - it seems like a movie these guys would like - very Stephen Kingesque and it's about two brothers who see their fathers zealous, psychotic behavior very differently. I had been suspecting something like this and when not-Locke said his mother was crazy I decided I'd like them to go that way :evil: But they can't because the set up is backwards and I dont want to ruin the movie so that's all I can say.

Esau's and Jacob's fates were also controlled by their mother's deception. so I have a real problem calling either good or bad if they ARE going to go in that direction. I dont want them to -- I think it's forced, like back-peddaling to explain stuff they had no intention of ever explaining in such detail. Star Trek the series was great because they left much unexplained. People try to explain it but they dont WANT it explained fro real. Life IS there is always a devine mystery and in a way it annoys me the way these guys are bending over backwards to answer questions that never had answers. It's fun too though so... :noclue: I hate the Jacob and Esau story. Basically the religion is based on deception - the linage of the people is not as it should be --- so either it's WRONG or none of it even matters Esau was picked as hero but dad gave t=it all to Jacob thinking he WAS Esau. So when Esau comes home from huitnghe's told he's got to go because even though his dad said I give everything to you ESAU because he said it to Jacob it's all Jacob's.... makes ZERO sense holds ZERO justice...makes any pre-destined line a mockery - or it means sh!tty things happen for a reason and Jacob was always meant to be #1 despite always coming from a place of weakness... it's a STUPID PARABLE AND I DISLIKE IT! :angry: :rant: :argh:
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#60 UnderDogX

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 12:04 PM

There are two problems, PK, that I have found with people saying "we don't know who is good or bad yet"...first is the narrative and where it has lead us. We can't forget that this is still a story being told and unfortunately for some it isn't a story where Jacob is the protagonist. Even if that part of the story is left open ended, which I don't think it can be simply because of the nature of the story's true epicenter Jack, we are already given the conclusion, based on Tuesday's episode, as to which roles Jacob and MiB are a part of. We were given a story by a character that is believed to be true, i.e. Jacob's metaphor with the bottle of wine. However, the writers then gave the audience a reassurance that the said metaphor was true by having another character illustrate the metaphor, to a degree, without knowledge of the metaphor, in this case MiB smashing the bottle. It's classic storytelling and had the man in black confronted any character with knowledge of the metaphor only to try to dissuade them then it could be seen as a stalemate that is left up to the audience to decide. But it wasn't in this case, which is why the scene was so important. Sure there can still be some ambiguity as to how far into the "gray area" each of the two characters will go but as a whole it should seem obvious where they lie along the spectrum of good and bad.

The second problem harkens back to who the protagonist is as well as the dramatic structure of a story. Jacob and MiB are merely sub characters and based on the time left within the show (8hrs) the dramatic structure just doesn't leave enough time to meander back and forth or sit and wait for a "shocking twist" relating to these two characters. The table has been set and we are reaching the climactic finale. While there may not be a true falling action and/or resolution, as the writers might want to leave the rest up to us to decide the central theme is still about Jack and the rest of the survivors of Oceanic flight 815...The eventual battle between Jack and Smokie McLocke is nearing and we all know its going to happen based on what we've previously been set up with. And that's the story the writers have been building to. The emotional toll that battle will take on the audience lies in knowing who to root for. It renders that central story moot if half of the audience is rooting for the guy who could possibly be good but does bad things or a guy who seems to be bad but might just want to free.

And I know the writers love mixing up the story's mythology with that of fictional, historical, and biblical stories I don't really buy into the Jacob/Esua parable as being what we have seen between Jacob and MiB. That's no different than basing your entire opinion of Sawyer on Twain's story. Sure the writers used that as backbone or even a mental note for which the audience can relate its too contrived and unoriginal which is not at all what Lost has strived to be.
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