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A plane crashed on September 22, 2004


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#121 Devil Dan 56

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Posted 24 May 2010 - 11:13 PM

I like that they didn't give us all of the answers. In the end, the show was about the characters. That's how it started and that's how they ended it. I thought it was pretty much the best way to end it. It left plenty of mystery behind.
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#122 Revan

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 12:21 AM

I agree - it's still a cop-out. I say cop-out because even though the island wasn't purgatory, the writers spent most of their time in 6 seasons exploring the concept in this "alternative time sequence". For example: If everything they remembered was true - why did Locke tell Jack he didn't have a kid. Jack "thought" he did. I'm not arguing, I'm just saying that there are many circular arguments. Whether or not they were there on purpose or not is another story.

Everything that happened on the Island was real. Then, after every one of them died (either in season 1, season 6 or years later [Hurley became the new keeper, so God knows how long he lived after that]), they kind of "woke up" on the plane (keep in mind it's afterlife, so, like Christian said, the time and when they died is irrelevant there). The world there looked like it was kind of Jack's perfect world: the Island sank and the plane never crashed (probably because Jack's little experiment with the bomb from season 5 finale worked). Almost everyone has a happier life: Sawyer is a good guy, Jack has a son and starts getting along with him after having issues in the past, Desmond has a great relationship with Widmore, etc, etc.

Locke tells Jack he doesn't have a son after having flashbacks of his life and realising he's in some sort of purgatory and that in his life before the death, Shepherd didn't have a kid. Jack didn't understand what Locke meant, because he didn't realise it was purgatory yet (it took him a while - he finally realised that after having talked to Kate after the concert; you know good ol' Jackie isn't to be convinced easily).

As for the numbers, I'm happy they didn't say anything. Really, that was one of those things that should stay as a mystery. Just like I didn't expect them to explain what the Island was. I mean, it would be like George Lucas explaining where the Force comes from in the Star Wars finale (good thing that didn't happen... although he was still able to screw things up a bit with all the midichlorian nonsense in The Phantom Menace). You're probably right about Walt though, I'd like to hear more about him, too.
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#123 UnderDogX

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 07:06 AM

My opinion on Walt is this, I think that at some point early in the series they had drawn this map out for him. What he was going to be, how he would develop but I think they didn't consider puberty. I think that it hit him too quick and very drastically so they weren't able to explain how, in 90 some odd days, he was able to grow so fast. So they decided they would work around it with a new character. And I think that character is Desmond. Everything that Desmond was to the series I think Walt was supposed to be. We were already given a hint with the electromagnetism and the bird hitting the window in Walt's flashback...given the "birds have use internal magnetic compassing to migrate" theory is correct. And I think that Walt's other abilities (the seeming polar bear manifestation..which could've been foreshadow rather than actual manifestation, and the astral projection...when he helped Locke out of the pit) were ditched and Desmond was given his time travel manipulation to differentiate between the two characters...

On a side note I'm trying to debate on wether or not Locke/Smokie lied to Jack about being the vision of Christian he saw in the jungle that lead him to water...I do believe that he was the Christian that got Locke to rotate the Donkey wheel but I think he was lying about helping Jack...

Also my biggest question about the show is at what point did Jacob stop trying to prove Smokie wrong? (as he said his original idea was...both in their introduction and in Richard's episode) so were the Oceanic 815ers part his proving Smokey wrong and part candidates for his replacement or at that point did he realize Smokie's plan to kill him was going to come to fruition so he scrapped the other stuff and concentrated on his replacement....
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#124 Pepperkorn

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 12:10 PM

I think Smokey was telling the truth -- I also think Ben was led by Smokey all the time -- I think the dude that said "help me" was in fact the smoke monster not Jacob - it's the only way it makes sense... :wacko: or not... who said it had to make ANY sense? And if ghost Christian was wandering around off island why didn't he tell Jack the smoke monster was imitating him?

and I LOVE the Walt idea! I think you are totally correct!

Edited by Pepperkorn, 25 May 2010 - 12:11 PM.

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#125 UnderDogX

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 01:31 PM

I guess it doesn't have to make sense and the off island vision Jack has could've very well been a hallucination. Jack did, after all, tell the Doc from Las Vegas (the tv show) to find his dad and bring him down if Jack was drunker than he then they could fire him....although the smoke alarm going off could've been a clue or red herring during that scene...

My interest with the situation is that when we see Christian (on island) in his suit he seems to be helping but we also see him later on in island attire and he seems to have smokey-like motives...so who knows..
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#126 El Diablo

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 02:27 PM

I guess it doesn't have to make sense and the off island vision Jack has could've very well been a hallucination. Jack did, after all, tell the Doc from Las Vegas (the tv show) to find his dad and bring him down if Jack was drunker than he then they could fire him....although the smoke alarm going off could've been a clue or red herring during that scene...

My interest with the situation is that when we see Christian (on island) in his suit he seems to be helping but we also see him later on in island attire and he seems to have smokey-like motives...so who knows..


didnt he help locke in his island attire when he fell down the well ?

whatever happened happened.. I think its a testament to the show that we are here and on thousands of other places discussing 6 years of fictional bs ... great show, better then expected ending.
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#127 Revan

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 03:27 PM

I do believe that he was the Christian that got Locke to rotate the Donkey wheel but I think he was lying about helping Jack...

I think it was Smokie in that scene, as he told Locke he had to die (obviously, that was exactly what the MIB needed). As you stated in your later post, it looks like it was sometimes Smokie, sometimes real Christian on the island (clothes were the difference I guess). Like I said, this is one of those things they came this close to explaining in the finale and, of course, had to leave us scratching our heads anyway. :P

Your theory about Walt seems right. Too bad they had to cut it like that. Well, I guess we can always try to put the puzzles into the right places anyway and assume the Others referred to Walt as "special" because they were, say, seeing a potential Jacob's succesor in him ("special" was the keyword in the whole Jacob-MIB story) and that's why they kidnapped him. ;) We can only speculate now. Unless they release some kind of encyclopedia, games or anything to make more cash out of it and fill in the holes they left.
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#128 skullsmasher

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 06:02 PM

That finale blew ass. Typical corny crap that you wouldn't normally find in this show.

A much better ending would have had Jack/Hurley and Smokie eventually sit next to each other and have "Locke" say I am going to kill you Jack/hurley(whoever ended up protecting the island), and get off this island. And have Jack respond not as long as I'm here blah blah something similar to the conversation Jacob's had with him. I am glad that a lot of you were satisfied with the ending, but I was so irritated when they left it so lame like that.

P.S. WHERE THE $%@& WAS EKO!?!?!?!?!?!?

Edited by skullsmasher, 25 May 2010 - 06:03 PM.

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#129 UnderDogX

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 08:50 PM

well supposedly the complete series package will have some "entertaining ways to reveal answers to some of the questions left without a solution." At least thats what the IGN.com write-up of the package says...

@ El Diablo, yeah in the island attire he did help Locke...and in doing so he got him off the island and believing that he would have to die to get the others back and make the island right again...exactly what got Smokey Locke's body so he could manipulate Ben and Richard into seeing jacob
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#130 Devil Dan 56

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Posted 26 May 2010 - 02:07 PM

I think Smokey was telling the truth -- I also think Ben was led by Smokey all the time -- I think the dude that said "help me" was in fact the smoke monster not Jacob - it's the only way it makes sense... :wacko: or not... who said it had to make ANY sense? And if ghost Christian was wandering around off island why didn't he tell Jack the smoke monster was imitating him?

and I LOVE the Walt idea! I think you are totally correct!


If you watch the 'help me' scene (I went back to re-watch it) when the cabin starts shaking and Benjamin gets thrown back from the chair, Locke looks at the chair and for a brief moment, it looks like Christian is there. Which would, of course, be MIB as Christian.
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#131 Nieuwy25

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Posted 26 May 2010 - 02:08 PM

Locke tells Jack he doesn't have a son after having flashbacks of his life and realising he's in some sort of purgatory and that in his life before the death, Shepherd didn't have a kid. Jack didn't understand what Locke meant, because he didn't realise it was purgatory yet (it took him a while - he finally realised that after having talked to Kate after the concert; you know good ol' Jackie isn't to be convinced easily).


Thanks for that! That's the one thing that wasn't making sense to me about this "way station" timeline.


My opinion on Walt is this, I think that at some point early in the series they had drawn this map out for him. What he was going to be, how he would develop but I think they didn't consider puberty. I think that it hit him too quick and very drastically so they weren't able to explain how, in 90 some odd days, he was able to grow so fast. So they decided they would work around it with a new character. And I think that character is Desmond. Everything that Desmond was to the series I think Walt was supposed to be. We were already given a hint with the electromagnetism and the bird hitting the window in Walt's flashback...given the "birds have use internal magnetic compassing to migrate" theory is correct. And I think that Walt's other abilities (the seeming polar bear manifestation..which could've been foreshadow rather than actual manifestation, and the astral projection...when he helped Locke out of the pit) were ditched and Desmond was given his time travel manipulation to differentiate between the two characters...


Makes perfect sense.

Man, I'm gonna miss this show. And for the most part, I loved the ending. I wish Eko and Michael and Walt had been included, but I suppose there were things going on with the actors that they couldn't or didn't want to work out.
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#132 Devil Dan 56

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Posted 26 May 2010 - 02:09 PM

That finale blew ass. Typical corny crap that you wouldn't normally find in this show.

A much better ending would have had Jack/Hurley and Smokie eventually sit next to each other and have "Locke" say I am going to kill you Jack/hurley(whoever ended up protecting the island), and get off this island. And have Jack respond not as long as I'm here blah blah something similar to the conversation Jacob's had with him. I am glad that a lot of you were satisfied with the ending, but I was so irritated when they left it so lame like that.

P.S. WHERE THE $%@& WAS EKO!?!?!?!?!?!?


That ending would have been pretty predictable. My room mate was calling for that one for a while, except he said it would be Jack and Sawyer.

Eko really didn't have much reason to be there. He was only on the island for 3 months or so. His purgatory or whatever would have been with his brother.
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#133 UnderDogX

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Posted 26 May 2010 - 04:37 PM

From what I've read the actor who played Eko signed on long term and they really wanted to push a Locke/Eko dynamic and make him a big part of the show...then he got homesick and wanted to leave the show so there were some very hard feelings...so needless to say there was no chance he'd be back. And Michael was stuck on the island as a "whisper" for his transgressions....And with the whole Walt thing, his life on island was cut short so he didn't really have a need to be in the "purgatory" sideline...

To me the best part of the whole purgatory thing and certain events within triggering the character's memories, I really dig how with Jack it was a whole bunch of things that caused his memory to be fully triggered..obviously it helped the story telling part of it but to have the "fixing" Locke thing, Kate, and his dad's coffin all be a part of what triggered his life experiences was a nice touch...with all of the other characters it was just one specific event....on that note seeing as how Libby was Hurley's trigger I find it someone depressing since he ended up being the protector of island for who knows how long and didn't have any other life experience worth triggering it.... :)
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#134 metallidevils

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Posted 26 May 2010 - 11:05 PM

When I have time I'll write some thoughts. But considering I watched the show for the mythology, not the characters, I was not happy. A coherent storyline was the very least that I was expecting, and we didn't get that either.

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#135 Zamode

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Posted 26 May 2010 - 11:43 PM




Now... who wasn't all choked up when Vincent came running up? I think the old shoe in the bamboo was evidence that the island happenings were real. He was too adorably fuzzy and young though -- he should have been a seven or eight year old dog. His adorable yellow paws and he made Jack smile and laugh. Everything is OK when dog is by your side!!




My sentiments as well!

http://www.yesbutnob..._that_lost.html

I have some thoughts, too when I have some time but I liked it. It wasn't what I expected, left alot out and I think in some ways it was a bit of s scam by the writers but overall, it was a character study and that's how it ended but according to Jack, it was his story.
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#136 Pepperkorn

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Posted 27 May 2010 - 03:45 PM

good link, Z!
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