219 replies to this topic

[NJDevs4978]

What's he going to do? He's not the coach. We pay him, he doesn't pay us.

And yet every single coach since Lemaire in his FIRST tenure with us has let him dictate playing time

[Martyisth3b3st]

And yet every single coach since Lemaire in his FIRST tenure with us has let him dictate playing time

When you're one of the top goalies in the league, that's all fine and dandy. But, since he knows he isn't any more, what's he going to say?

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

Yeah been a fan since my first game in 89 and been following religiously since 91 so obviously I am a young fan. Stop preaching from your high horse and see that perhaps Marty is a big contributor to the problem. He even said it himself that he doesn't see the puck as good as he used to. I do not care if he makes 50 great saves in a night, if he lets in 1 bad goal then it is squarely on him, and makes it even worse on this already fragile team. I know this board has its share of Marty lovers, but I wonder if you all will remain fans after Marty retires. Our offense sucks this year and I do acknowledge that, but again this team used to score only 1 or 2 games back in the 90's and still win. Also, yes I know back then we were in the top 5 in the league some years in goal scored, but look at how many goals total were scored back then. It was the trap, clutch-and-grab era where no one was scoring goals.

In bold: no, you don't get to change your argument when you've been proven wrong about an observation, throw your arms up and say, "Well, no one was scoring goals." Goal scoring may be up from those days, but it's nowhere near the 80s-early 90s levels, when a number of teams would crack 4.00+ GPG, and the Oilers managed to crack 5.00+ several times. The problem is that you tried to make it sound like the Devils were a weak offensive team in the 90s, when I showed that, most seasons, they really weren't. At any rate, like I posted, none of them were as anywhere near as bad at putting the puck in the net as this crop is.

Are you really going to compare a Luongo in his prime to a 38-year-old Brodeur? And Marty has always put up terrific stats too BTW...and despite facing four of the five highest shot totals of his career over the last five years, Marty exceeded his career save% in three of those seasons. If Marty is indeed having a bad year (and he may turn it around, though his numbers are likely going to fall below his career norms), this is the FIRST TIME IN HIS CAREER THAT HE'LL HAVE HAD ONE! But nope, he gets absolutely no leeway from you whatsoever. No, he has not been his usual self this year, he has not been good, the 1985-type stats can't continue, but must you be so quick to trash him and chuck him aside like he's done nothing for you all of these years?

Yeah, I think it's safe to say that I and many others will remain fans after it's over for Marty, despite what we're seeing right now. One half-season of sub-par play on team full of players having sub-par years isn't going to wipe out my memories.

[Jerrydevil]

When you're one of the top goalies in the league, that's all fine and dandy. But, since he knows he isn't any more, what's he going to say?

"Trade me," would be a help.

[Triumph]

brodeur has had several other bad regular seasons - 2001 comes to mind. although i guess that one was merely below average and not mind-blowingly horrible.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

brodeur has had several other bad regular seasons - 2001 comes to mind. although i guess that one was merely below average and not mind-blowingly horrible.

Several other bad regular seasons? Are you fvcking kidding me with this? He's had some that weren't great from a save% standpoint (the four-year stretch from '98 to '02, when he put up save%s of .906, .910, 906 and .906 come to mind, though I wouldn't call them "bad"), but to say "several" is flat-out ridiculous.

Why is it that people feel they now have to make sh!t up to knock this guy down a peg? We have Zubie#8 saying that Brodeur's clearly been on the decline for the last four seasons, though that's easily disproven. We have DevsMan84 saying that the Devils of the 90s were mostly scoring 1 and 2 goals, though that's also not true. And to top it all off, suddenly Marty's had several bad regular seasons. Give me a fvcking break.

[NJDevs4978]

Maybe maxpower isn't wrong with the NJDevs hates Marty talk.

Marty's been so far below his career norm this season nobody can rightly say they saw this coming. Then again you can say that about 95% of the roster. Kovy, Zajac, Langs, LOLston, Greene...basically our entire team is performing way below what SHOULD be their worst season it's mind-boggling.

The rest of this season imo is going to be figuring out why so many big name players' production has gone in the toilet, and fixing it.

[ThreeCups]

Several other bad regular seasons? Are you fvcking kidding me with this? He's had some that weren't great from a save% standpoint (the four-year stretch from '98 to '02, when he put up save%s of .906, .910, 906 and .906 come to mind, though I wouldn't call them "bad"), but to say "several" is flat-out ridiculous.

Why is it that people feel they now have to make sh!t up to knock this guy down a peg? We have Zubie#8 saying that Brodeur's clearly been on the decline for the last four seasons, though that's easily disproven. We have DevsMan84 saying that the Devils of the 90s were mostly scoring 1 and 2 goals, though that's also not true. And to top it all off, suddenly Marty's had several bad regular seasons. Give me a fvcking break.

Welcome to njdevs! Where people bash our own players (NHL All Time Great in this scenario), make up stats out of their ass, yet WE are wrong! Brodeur clearly sucks and is finished! I hope LL trades him to San Jose tomorrow for a pair of leftover Arturs Irbe worn pads, a bag of pucks, and a Cheechoo stick!

[Triumph]

Several other bad regular seasons? Are you fvcking kidding me with this? He's had some that weren't great from a save% standpoint (the four-year stretch from '98 to '02, when he put up save%s of .906, .910, 906 and .906 come to mind, though I wouldn't call them "bad"), but to say "several" is flat-out ridiculous.

Why is it that people feel they now have to make sh!t up to knock this guy down a peg? We have Zubie#8 saying that Brodeur's clearly been on the decline for the last four seasons, though that's easily disproven. We have DevsMan84 saying that the Devils of the 90s were mostly scoring 1 and 2 goals, though that's also not true. And to top it all off, suddenly Marty's had several bad regular seasons. Give me a fvcking break.

i corrected myself, though not well. he's had several average seasons. brodeur's save percentage has two confounding factors -

1: the devils have taken far fewer penalties than any nhl team since brodeur's career began
2: the devils' scorer undercounts shots on goal

the undercounting probably costs brodeur 2 shots a game at home, but the fewer penalties is definitely a bigger boost to his numbers. still, he's been more average than devils fans realize. post-lockout is really where he has shined.

[ThreeCups]

Maybe maxpower isn't wrong with the NJDevs hates Marty talk.

Maybe?!?!? Some of the posts I have seen on this board over the past few weeks are downright nauseating....and these people dare to call themselves "fans"?

i corrected myself, though not well. he's had several average seasons. brodeur's save percentage has two confounding factors -

1: the devils have taken far fewer penalties than any nhl team since brodeur's career began
2: the devils' scorer undercounts shots on goal

the undercounting probably costs brodeur 2 shots a game at home, but the fewer penalties is definitely a bigger boost to his numbers. still, he's been more average than devils fans realize. post-lockout is really where he has shined.

You are officially a joke! Please show me proof of "the devils have taken far fewer penalties than any nhl team since brodeur's career began". ALSO, if the Devils scorer "undercounts shots on goal" that would make his save percentage LOWER! If he got credit for more saves (shots on goal against) his save percentage would be HIGHER!

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

i corrected myself, though not well. he's had several average seasons. brodeur's save percentage has two confounding factors -

1: the devils have taken far fewer penalties than any nhl team since brodeur's career began
2: the devils' scorer undercounts shots on goal

the undercounting probably costs brodeur 2 shots a game at home, but the fewer penalties is definitely a bigger boost to his numbers. still, he's been more average than devils fans realize. post-lockout is really where he has shined.

I think he's been well above-average to spectacular for most of his career. The four-year stretch from '98 to '02, I think he was a shade above-average, and I thought his lowest point was the '01 playoffs, specifically the '01 Finals. His game just unraveled in that series.

Compared to his peers, I think Hasek was better as a pure puck-stopper (that 6-year stretch of putting up that .930 save% was unreal), and Roy was a little more clutch, but Marty was pretty damn amazing when you factor in everything...durability, puck handling, and no discerable decline in his game through the end of last year.

[Jerrydevil]

I don't hate Brodeur, and I think his performance has been affected by the maelstrom that is the 2011 New Jersey Devils. (Even though I cannot stand Kovalchuk, the same can be said for him, in fairness.)

[NJDevs4978]

Maybe?!?!? Some of the posts I have seen on this board over the past few weeks are downright nauseating....and these people dare to call themselves "fans"?

Well until recently it's been a vocal minority with LucifersDog, CRASHER and Tri at times (well he's not really a Marty hater per se, he's just said more than once his pre-lockout career was about 'average') but lately it's gotten over the top. To the point where it's starting to resemble AOL in the Kyydax days.

Edited by NJDevs4978, 30 December 2010 - 06:38 PM.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

Maybe?!?!? Some of the posts I have seen on this board over the past few weeks are downright nauseating....and these people dare to call themselves "fans"?

You are officially a joke! Please show me proof of "the devils have taken far fewer penalties than any nhl team since brodeur's career began". ALSO, if the Devils scorer "undercounts shots on goal" that would make his save percentage LOWER! If he got credit for more saves (shots on goal against) his save percentage would be HIGHER!

I don't have the exact numbers, but I do know for years the Devils were always at or near the bottom in drawing penalties and being assessed penalties. I'd be curious to know large the discrepancy is as well.

[Triumph]

Maybe?!?!? Some of the posts I have seen on this board over the past few weeks are downright nauseating....and these people dare to call themselves "fans"?




You are officially a joke! Please show me proof of "the devils have taken far fewer penalties than any nhl team since brodeur's career began". ALSO, if the Devils scorer "undercounts shots on goal" that would make his save percentage LOWER! If he got credit for more saves (shots on goal against) his save percentage would be HIGHER!

uh, duh. god you are an idiot. i said confounding factors. i did not say that both helped him.

let's see, how about proof that the devils have taken few penalties:

1994: 24th (of 26)
1995: 26th (of 26) (by 34! in a 48 game season!)
1996: 26th (of 26) (only by 22)
1997: 26th (of 26) (by only 30)
1998: 24th (of 26)
1999: 23rd (of 27)
2000: 18th (of 28)
2001: 29th (of 30)
2002: 30th (of 30)
2003: 30th (of 30) (by 44)
2004: 30th (of 30)
2006: 30th (of 30) (by 52)
2007: 30th (of 30) (by 34)
2008: 26th (of 30)
2009: 22nd (of 30)
2010: 30th (of 30)

are you happy now? do you really think there is another team who has taken fewer penalties than the devils over that span? the devils were best in the league 9 times, sometimes by a huge margin, and they were never above average. if the devils were average in penalties taken every year, brodeur would've likely faced 500-800 more power plays against than he did. that's pretty big.

76: brodeur's best assets are his longevity and durability. there are lots of non-roy, non-hasek guys over his career who are similar and maybe better, but none who've maintained it as long.

Edited by Triumph, 30 December 2010 - 06:44 PM.

[ThreeCups]

uh, duh. god you are an idiot. i said confounding factors. i did not say that both helped him.

let's see, how about proof that the devils have taken few penalties:

1994: 24th (of 26)
1995: 26th (of 26) (by 34! in a 48 game season!)
1996: 26th (of 26) (only by 22)
1997: 26th (of 26) (by only 30)
1998: 24th (of 26)
1999: 23rd (of 27)
2000: 18th (of 28)
2001: 29th (of 30)
2002: 30th (of 30)
2003: 30th (of 30) (by 44)
2004: 30th (of 30)
2006: 30th (of 30) (by 52)
2007: 30th (of 30) (by 34)
2008: 26th (of 30)
2009: 22nd (of 30)
2010: 30th (of 30)

are you happy now? do you really think there is another team who has taken fewer penalties than the devils over that span? the devils were best in the league 9 times, sometimes by a huge margin, and they were never above average.

76: brodeur's best assets are his longevity and durability. there are lots of non-roy, non-hasek guys over his career who are similar and maybe better, but none who've maintained it as long.

Why bring up the shot counter then? This goes against your argument. Anyway, is the number in parentheses the number of penalties or total penalty minutes? For sure they were one of the least penalized, but by how much? Enough to suggest that THIS is one of the reasons Marty has had a great (or so-so by some of the people on here's standards) career?!?

[Triumph]

Why bring up the shot counter then? This goes against your argument. Anyway, is the number in parentheses the number of penalties or total penalty minutes? For sure they were one of the least penalized, but by how much? Enough to suggest that THIS is one of the reasons Marty has had a great (or so-so by some of the people on here's standards) career?!?

uh, my 'argument' is attempting to figure out where brodeur deserves to be ranked, not to hate on him. 4978 rightly notes that i am not a brodeur hater, but i don't think he's the best ever or particularly close. the shot counting thing makes it more difficult to rank him because he's been robbed of saves that other goalies get.

but yes, it's by power plays. in 2006, the league average number of power plays against was 480. the devils took 349 penalties. in 07, it was 398, and the devils took 271 penalties. i estimated that brodeur faced 500-800 fewer total power plays than the average over that time span, but i think it's closer to 700-1000 power plays that brodeur has had the benefit of not having to face. that's pretty enormous over the course of a career.

Edited by Triumph, 30 December 2010 - 06:54 PM.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

For what it's worth, the all-time save% leaders...Marty is tied for 10th all-time.

http://www.hockey-re...pct_career.html

[LucifersDog]

Even I as some call me a Brodeur hater, have said over and over he is in the top 5 but not number 1. This season has shown his deterioration due to age and with the lack of a good defense in front of him he is not even OK. But why argue he is what he is and he's not god as some here think.

[mmajeski06]

"Trade me," would be a help.