67 replies to this topic

[Pepperkorn]

No, Marty is not Michael Jordan. you can team sport it all you want but no one would quibble with Tiger Woods is Michael Jordan of golf. An argumnetative moron woudl quibble if someone said Michael jordan is the Tiger Woods of basketball Scotty Pippin THAT is not the point I'm making.

Marty cannot carry the team -- even with a decent support system in front of him he cannot and never has carried a team. It is that very misconception and over-estimation that has put the team and him in the position they are in. THAT is the point that MUST be understood. All stats aside -- all talent aside Broduer is incapable of carrying a team.

And he should never be expected to. I have never understood people insisting he ever did insisting he ever should and now holding him accountable for not doing so. He's a goalie. end of story. He HAS taken the position way out of it's confines literally and figuratively. But he's not a team carrier. Jordan IS.

Edited by Pepperkorn, 04 January 2011 - 10:09 AM.

[Jerrydevil]

So what if Marty Brodeur couldn't carry a team? You can count on one hand the number of hockey players who "carried" their team to a championship. You could argue that Roy did it twice. Who else?

Hasek carried his team to NO championships.

Who exactly are you comparing Brodeur to ... Roy? OK, fine. Roy carried teams. He was better.

It doesn't change the fact that Brodeur was a great player, an all-timer. Not a product of a system, not lucky to play for NJ but a cog of a winning team for 16 years with a handful of Vezinas. Greatness.

[Jerrydevil]

Jordan never won a thing without Pippen, PK. Never forget it.

[Devil Dan 56]

So what if Marty Brodeur couldn't carry a team? You can count on one hand the number of hockey players who "carried" their team to a championship. You could argue that Roy did it twice. Who else?

Hasek carried his team to NO championships.

Who exactly are you comparing Brodeur to ... Roy? OK, fine. Roy carried teams. He was better.

It doesn't change the fact that Brodeur was a great player, an all-timer. Not a product of a system, not lucky to play for NJ but a cog of a winning team for 16 years with a handful of Vezinas. Greatness.

This right here.

It's sad that it's coming to an end, but I can't believe how quick people are to abandon him. He clearly isn't winning, he knows it, he's frustrated, he's trying to play through it. What else do people want from him? I swear some people wouldn't be satisfied unless he committed seppuku in the crease after a loss.

None of us have any idea how hard it is to be one of the all time greats and to have to deal with the fact that your skills are declining rapidly and the team around you isn't good enough to help. It's not like flipping a switch.

[DevsMan84]

This right here.

It's sad that it's coming to an end, but I can't believe how quick people are to abandon him. He clearly isn't winning, he knows it, he's frustrated, he's trying to play through it. What else do people want from him? I swear some people wouldn't be satisfied unless he committed seppuku in the crease after a loss.

None of us have any idea how hard it is to be one of the all time greats and to have to deal with the fact that your skills are declining rapidly and the team around you isn't good enough to help. It's not like flipping a switch.

I never said Marty is not a good goalie, I think he is quite good. Is he the all-time best? Well that is something we will never know since he never carried a team to a cup. What I do know is that for most of his career he never had to stand on his head each game he played. I am not quick just because he has the most wins (coupled with the fact that he played most of his career in the trap-era, played at least 70 games a season, and played a good part of his career in an era with no ties) to accept that he is the best-ever. I honestly would give that to either Roy or Hasek at this point. However, any mention of this I am called names and accusing me of abandoning him.

[Pepperkorn]

So what if Marty Brodeur couldn't carry a team? You can count on one hand the number of hockey players who "carried" their team to a championship. You could argue that Roy did it twice. Who else?

I agree 100% as my post attests. If you were hoping you were somehow arguing with Dev84 through me or that I agree with anything he's been posting - sorry -- we're on the same side here. I think the Michael Jordan argument someone threw out there is piss poor strategy and only serves to deflect and weaken our cause here.

The point isn't that Marty is comparable Michael Jordan -- the point is he's not nor should he be expected to be.

and I really dont care about basketball so ...sounds like you need to go to a Bulls site to argue whether Pippin gets short shrift in the annals of history

Edited by Pepperkorn, 04 January 2011 - 10:59 AM.

[Jerrydevil]

I honestly would give that to either Roy or Hasek at this point.

That's fair. That's no insult to Brodeur, at least I don't think it is. "System goalie" is the insult.

and I really dont care about basketball so ...sounds like you need to go to a Bulls site to argue whether Pippin gets short shrift in the annals of history

No thanks. I'd rather drop it, too!

[CarpathianForest]

I never said Marty is not a good goalie, I think he is quite good. Is he the all-time best? Well that is something we will never know since he never carried a team to a cup. What I do know is that for most of his career he never had to stand on his head each game he played. I am not quick just because he has the most wins (coupled with the fact that he played most of his career in the trap-era, played at least 70 games a season, and played a good part of his career in an era with no ties) to accept that he is the best-ever. I honestly would give that to either Roy or Hasek at this point. However, any mention of this I am called names and accusing me of abandoning him.

Look at all those D men blocking shots in front of Brodeur.

One thing that is noticeable throughout these saves is his quick glove hand. He hasn't had that quick glove hand since his injury.

[Pepperkorn]

What I DO think has been proven is simply that Marty cannot thrive in any environment. He needs to be ahead of the pack to have a clear view of things. There is just so much he can play through. And THAT is weak... really weak, and we have every right to be disappointed in him for that. I did expect him to be solid happy Marty and to not let things get him down so obviously from the start. But he adopted an "I'm doing my part" little tude and now that it's worn on him so far that he can't even do his part.... I understand. and I understand some attitudes he's seen in the past he's trying to avoid having. But he's GOT to just suck it up not be all honest and say "You know, this isn't fun and I'm not in the mood to suck it up" if he's not doing his part he's got to suck it up and to be honest Marty and the guy we know.... I'd have expected him to be more positive and enjoy even being mired in the sh!t. He always talked like he just loves hockey... now he's mired... first time ever he is personally mired along with his team. Not fun -- but it' IS hockey so you do have to find a way to love it or you DO NOT love hockey -- you only love success. and even that's OK. Just not what i expected from a true Devils man.

[DevsMan84]

That's fair. That's no insult to Brodeur, at least I don't think it is. "System goalie" is the insult.

How is that an insult though? He was a major block of the organization, but he like any player can be replaced. This was shown when Clemmer took over for 50 or so games a couple of seasons back.
Again I still think he is an above average goalie and is quite talented, but he is not the singular reason why the Devils have been successful and he has never had to be outstanding day in and day out for a large chunk of his career.

[Pepperkorn]

Devsman84 - you're being unreasonable. If you don't understand how that is then I'm not going to further clarify it for you.

It is a joke to say Brodeur is merely the product of a system. He's far more than that. it makes much more sense that Clemmer's success was right place right time right to streak. Streaks are far more common than your "system goalie" garbage. As the keeper of the Ineffable System -- one effable is an ultra-talented goalie who can work WITH his defence in addition to through them. Marty has done both consistently for years now. He IS that good. It's just nonsense to try to deny or explain it away. He has been so consistently great for so many years that you do not have the data to back up your opinion. the fact he's denied you that data proves pretty much that yeah -- he IS that good. Just relax and accept it even if it puts the Devils organization in a far tougher spot knowing they have to replace that. Not really going to happen is it?

You're closer to winning agreement saying it's an injury combined with age.

Also feel it -- feel that sick feeling in your stomach -- allowing the feeling enables you to work through it. Denying it -- well everyone denied our defensive issues and now we see where we are.

Scott Stevens = irreplaceable

Scott Neidermayer = irreplaceable

Marty Brodeur = irreplaceable.


There -- it's out there -- deal with it == chew on it -- then move on as best you can OK?

Edited by Pepperkorn, 04 January 2011 - 11:37 AM.

[DevsMan84]

Devsman84 - you're being unreasonable. If you don't understand how that is then I'm not going to further clarify it for you.

It is a joke to say Brodeur is merely the product of a system. He's far more than that. it makes much more sense that Clemmer's success was right place right time right to streak. Streaks are far more common than your "system goalie" garbage. As the keeper of the Ineffable System -- one effable is an ultra-talented goalie who can work WITH his defence in addition to through them. Marty has done both consistently for years now. He IS that good. It's just nonsense to try to deny or explain it away. He has been so consistently great for so many years that you do not have the data to back up your opinion. the fact he's denied you that data proves pretty much that yeah -- he IS that good. Just relax and accept it even if it puts the Devils organization in a far tougher spot knowing they have to replace that. Not really going to happen is it?

You're closer to winning agreement saying it's an injury combined with age.

Also feel it -- feel that sick feeling in your stomach -- allowing the feeling enables you to work through it. Denying it -- well everyone denied our defensive issues and now we see where we are.

Scott Stevens = irreplaceable

Scott Neidermayer = irreplaceable

Marty Brodeur = irreplaceable.


There -- it's out there -- deal with it == chew on it -- then move on as best you can OK?

So you rather deny that Brodeur is a product of the system and believe that Clemmer was on a 50-game streak? Sorry, I just do not buy that and you are selling Clemmer short. Yeah Clemmer is not nearly as good as Brodeur, I will give you at least that much, but to say that the Devils happen to go on such a long successful streak without Brodeur the exact same time Clemmer happened to be in net is silly.

[Quinn01]

Marty will always be considered "the best goaltender in NHL history" as far as NJ fans go however, he has not been what he has worked himself up to be all this time. Johan Hedberg I feel is a very solid back up and should get the shot to play as much as he is needed, which with the way Marty has been playing and how reliable he actually is, should be atleast 1 game a week IMO.

Scotty Clemmensen stepped up last season greatly when he was needed and played really really well but I still feel in the long run of things, Johan Hedberg is a stronger back up goaltender.

This is not the first time someone of Martys position has taken a plunge as far as their skill goes. It happens all the time. The best of the best are in the spot light, get injured and are never the same again and end up take a back seat in the franchise. I feel that there was a significant name in the MLB but for some reason, I am drawing a blank.

Edited by Quinn01, 04 January 2011 - 11:52 AM.

[Devil Dan 56]

I never said Marty is not a good goalie, I think he is quite good. Is he the all-time best? Well that is something we will never know since he never carried a team to a cup. What I do know is that for most of his career he never had to stand on his head each game he played. I am not quick just because he has the most wins (coupled with the fact that he played most of his career in the trap-era, played at least 70 games a season, and played a good part of his career in an era with no ties) to accept that he is the best-ever. I honestly would give that to either Roy or Hasek at this point. However, any mention of this I am called names and accusing me of abandoning him.

Agreed, Roy stole cups. Hasek NEVER stole a cup. He was a passenger when he got his name on it. Hasek was probably the best, but even he didn't steal a cup.

Also, 70 games a year shows incredible durability, both Hasek and Roy played in the trap or dead-puck era, and Brodeur passed the wins record even without shootout wins.

And again, if he's a product of the system, then there's no way he wins 3 Vezinas without Stevens, Nieds, etc. Yes, I know Clemmer played incredibly well when he was called on, but the ENTIRE team was playing way over their heads that year. They couldn't keep that up all year and they didn't. They limped into the playoffs on a big losing streak.

The point I'm making is that Brodeur is right up there with Hasek and Roy. Maybe not better, but definitely a top 5 all time in the same breath as Sawchuk, Plante, Dryden, etc.

[DevsMan84]

Agreed, Roy stole cups. Hasek NEVER stole a cup. He was a passenger when he got his name on it. Hasek was probably the best, but even he didn't steal a cup.

Also, 70 games a year shows incredible durability, both Hasek and Roy played in the trap or dead-puck era, and Brodeur passed the wins record even without shootout wins.

And again, if he's a product of the system, then there's no way he wins 3 Vezinas without Stevens, Nieds, etc. Yes, I know Clemmer played incredibly well when he was called on, but the ENTIRE team was playing way over their heads that year. They couldn't keep that up all year and they didn't. They limped into the playoffs on a big losing streak.

The point I'm making is that Brodeur is right up there with Hasek and Roy. Maybe not better, but definitely a top 5 all time in the same breath as Sawchuk, Plante, Dryden, etc.

I can at least agree with that statement. But to say that he is the absolute best all-time then I would have to argue with whoever says that.
Also I meant just Roy stole games, and not Hasek and you have pointed that out. I was not clear on that so I apologize.

[Devil Dan 56]

So you rather deny that Brodeur is a product of the system and believe that Clemmer was on a 50-game streak? Sorry, I just do not buy that and you are selling Clemmer short. Yeah Clemmer is not nearly as good as Brodeur, I will give you at least that much, but to say that the Devils happen to go on such a long successful streak without Brodeur the exact same time Clemmer happened to be in net is silly.

They did. Clemmer and the rest of the team played at a level they couldn't possibly keep up. Why couldn't Weekes buy a win at the same time if it was just the system? By the end of Clemmensens run, he wasn't playing well and the entire league had figured out that he had no lateral movement and a fairly weak glove hand. Weekes was starting to get more of the starts and had a personal 4 or 5 game win streak going. Clemmer was great, but that team rose up for him.

Do you remember how the whole team was playing the first few games Marty was back? They were unstoppable for a couple of weeks. It's just not possible to keep that up for 82 games plus playoffs.

[CarpathianForest]

Yes, I know Clemmer played incredibly well when he was called on, but the ENTIRE team was playing way over their heads that year.

This. Clemmer benefitted from having a team in front of him that played their arses off on D. They knew that they had a backup in net and would need to step it up to help him and be successful.

[Devil Dan 56]

I can at least agree with that statement. But to say that he is the absolute best all-time then I would have to argue with whoever says that.
Also I meant just Roy stole games, and not Hasek and you have pointed that out. I was not clear on that so I apologize.

I wouldn't call Marty best all time, not when Roy won 3 Conn Smythes or whatever it was and 4 Cups, and not when Hasek at that .927 or whatever career save percentage on much worse teams.

[DevsMan84]

I wouldn't call Marty best all time, not when Roy won 3 Conn Smythes or whatever it was and 4 Cups, and not when Hasek at that .927 or whatever career save percentage on much worse teams.

This I totally agree with, but you and I still might get flamed by some for stating that.

[CarpathianForest]

In a top ten list I'd still put Roy ahead of Brodeur.