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Devils Midseason Report Card: Team in midst of misery


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#101 RowdyFan42

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Posted 12 January 2011 - 02:02 PM

LOL at Manta's steadfast refusal to admit that the Devs were in trouble before acquiring Kovy... and his refusal to see that the writing's been on the wall for years now. Yeah, the Devs would've won the Cup if Lou hadn't ruined everything with that fateful trade with Atlanta. And we all know they'd be on top of the division now if it wasn't for signing Kovy. Yup yup yup.
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#102 coldply123

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Posted 12 January 2011 - 02:11 PM

my problem with this is two fold.

one, you're giving a commitment to greene that blocks someone else (like urbom or taormina)

two - it's still money. sure we could send him to the minors at any time to get him off the cap, but i don't think the devils can keep making multi-year commitments for guys that just aren't that good.


That's where I kind of don't like going anything more than year to year on Greene. And as I've said, if you get a decent offer from a team you should run and take it. You have to avoid bidding against yourself and set a value. I don't think Greene really merits anything more than what he makes now, maybe a raise to 1-1.25 mil max. And before people raise how much Tallinder makes, I think that's looking like a bad deal, but Lou's made a few of them lately.

And it's become pretty clear that Vanderbeek is not going to let Lou bury any more contracts or have Vanderbeek eat any money. Something people overlook is that while Kovy's cap hit is only 6.6 mil per year, the Devils have to shell out approx. 11 million in actual dollars each of the next two seasons to Kovy.

So, while people are obsessed about cap hit and how' that's been bargained down due to the length of the contract, there still are operating costs. It's why I think there's going to be a struggle to fit Parise in and the Devils are in a bind. The Devils cannot go in on a one year deal with Parise. They need to find out where they can fit him in on a long-term deal, and if they can't make the numbers work/come to an agreement or Parise hints at looking to test the market/wanting to leave, we have to look at a trade. Not saying we won't or can't, but there's some money/budget and cash flow issues the Devils have to contend with. Some people are too quick to look at money that's coming off the cap, without looking at it deeper than that.

Edited by coldply123, 12 January 2011 - 02:17 PM.

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#103 Triumph

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Posted 12 January 2011 - 02:14 PM

my problem with this is two fold.

one, you're giving a commitment to greene that blocks someone else (like urbom or taormina)


who is being blocked, exactly? the devils have used 12 different defensemen this year. urbom would still get in 30 games next season almost regardless of what happened. since when did it become a crime to actually let players season in the minor leagues?

two - it's still money. sure we could send him to the minors at any time to get him off the cap, but i don't think the devils can keep making multi-year commitments for guys that just aren't that good.


they can when it beats the alternative, which is either hoping and praying that rookies can take top 4 minutes, or bringing in someone from outside the organization and hoping that he too can take those minutes. if greene wants market price, lou can tell him that a man in his position cannot be made to look ridiculous and to get the hell out of here. i for one think that greene's ability lies between these two seasons, and that if he's willing to cut lou a little bit of a break on salary, he'll have a nicely defined role.

Edited by Triumph, 12 January 2011 - 02:16 PM.

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#104 coldply123

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Posted 12 January 2011 - 02:19 PM

What other players? They're $17 million under the cap right now. Comfortable enough to fit Kovy even at $10 million a year.

Anyway, the question you have to ask is whether the Thrashers would be better/same/worse if they still had him. The players they got back from the Devils thus far don't seem to have made much of a difference. (I thought Oduya had, but apparently he's been playing poorly). You could argue though that without having gotten the Devils first-rounder they couldn't have gotten Byfulin.

This is hockey, not a controlled experiment, so no one can really know.



Well the thing is that getting rid of Kovy allowed them some freedom to change things up and go in a different direction in terms of what kind of hockey they wanted to play, what system, etc. There's no denying they were a Kovy-centric team and offense when he was there.

The thing we are grappling with know is how best to support Kovy and enhance his abilities and make that equal production that helps us win.
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#105 MantaRay

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Posted 12 January 2011 - 02:21 PM

LOL at Manta's steadfast refusal to admit that the Devs were in trouble before acquiring Kovy... and his refusal to see that the writing's been on the wall for years now. Yeah, the Devs would've won the Cup if Lou hadn't ruined everything with that fateful trade with Atlanta. And we all know they'd be on top of the division now if it wasn't for signing Kovy. Yup yup yup.


Losing some games with a team that had just set a franchise best half season was fixable.

Gutting your team, philosophically, physically, morale-wise, financially and prospect wise for a talented individual that has to be taught a new way of playing is different.

Your starting from scratch when you didn't have too.
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#106 MantaRay

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Posted 12 January 2011 - 02:24 PM

Does anyone recall if Manta moaned this much when we signed Rolston to his contract?
I admit I felt a lot like Manta too for a couple of months but you gotta dance with who brung you. There's no changing what was done so let's move forward.


I thought the Rolston signing was a good move. I still do.
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#107 MantaRay

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Posted 12 January 2011 - 02:31 PM

The thing we are grappling with know is how best to support Kovy and enhance his abilities and make that equal production that helps us win.


I don't think you can.

It's not so much about Kovy, it's that fact that all the Devils players defer to him on the ice and he reinforces this by trying to do everything himself. This is the same problem Atlanta had.

The winning hockey element of the TEAM game suffers.

An individual with all this talent you can either: let him play his own high risk game he can score 40 goals and at the same time allow 70+ goals against.

or you can have him learn your game and he becomes a 25 goal guy with a good +/-. You win, but he is no longer considered a "superstar".
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#108 NewarkDevil5

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Posted 12 January 2011 - 02:42 PM

I thought the Rolston signing was a good move. I still do.


Wait, with 20/20 hindsight you'd still do the Rolston move? You think that Kovalchuk has put us into cap-hell with his $6.66mill cap-hit, but have no problem with Rolston's $5+mill cap-hit? If Rolston were on another team playing the way he has played the last three years and with his current cap-hit, would you trade Kovalchuk for Rolston straight up?
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#109 sundstrom

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Posted 12 January 2011 - 02:45 PM

who is being blocked, exactly? the devils have used 12 different defensemen this year. urbom would still get in 30 games next season almost regardless of what happened. since when did it become a crime to actually let players season in the minor leagues?



they can when it beats the alternative, which is either hoping and praying that rookies can take top 4 minutes, or bringing in someone from outside the organization and hoping that he too can take those minutes. if greene wants market price, lou can tell him that a man in his position cannot be made to look ridiculous and to get the hell out of here. i for one think that greene's ability lies between these two seasons, and that if he's willing to cut lou a little bit of a break on salary, he'll have a nicely defined role.


they can be seasoned, sure. but andy greene has been awful. urbom would be no better and probably worse right now but i would hope that this year in the minors brings him to greene's current level next year, if not more. but i'm not sure andy has earned more than two years - at $1-$1.5MM. he's a place holder and getting top 4 minutes because there is no alternative. i would like to think the devils could get another tallinder type that can make a pass for not a ton.

also, i just want to say that i like your posts very much.

I thought the Rolston signing was a good move. I still do.


i hope you mean you still do think that AT THE TIME it was a good signing. because if you think it still looks good now, you've lost any credibility in any argument.
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#110 CarpathianForest

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Posted 12 January 2011 - 02:48 PM

I don't think you can.

It's not so much about Kovy, it's that fact that all the Devils players defer to him on the ice and he reinforces this by trying to do everything himself. This is the same problem Atlanta had.

The winning hockey element of the TEAM game suffers.

An individual with all this talent you can either: let him play his own high risk game he can score 40 goals and at the same time allow 70+ goals against.

or you can have him learn your game and he becomes a 25 goal guy with a good +/-. You win, but he is no longer considered a "superstar".


I think we're actually seeing Kovy slowly transition into a hybrid of his talents plus a team player.

Fact of the matter:

Kovy is trying to do everything offensively.
Zubrus can forecheck but his finish is lacking.
David Clarkson needs a hoveround some days.
Rolston would rather see if his shot can break a glass pane.
Marty is older and reacts like two seconds after a goal is scored on him.
Hedberg is considered the younger goalie at 37.
Zajac is lost without Parise
Parise is injured.
Langs phoned it in.
A combination of losing and age has zapped Arnott's morale.
Palmieri looks good(but he still looks like the crying Giants fan)
Zharkov is still snakebitten
White is pretty darn good for a cyclops.
Tallinder keeps hoping Tyler Myers magically appears
Volchenkov has to curb his bread and butter of blocked shots cuz his goalie doesn't like it.
Fayne is making rookie mistakes.
Fraser is a hot head who can't pass out of the zone
Greene switched places with his lesser talented doppleganger.
Salvador can't say anything but "My name is Sal!" at this current point.

Yeah but everything is all Kovy's fault.
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#111 NewarkDevil5

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Posted 12 January 2011 - 02:54 PM

I think we're actually seeing Kovy slowly transition into a hybrid of his talents plus a team player.

Fact of the matter:

Kovy is trying to do everything offensively.
Zubrus can forecheck but his finish is lacking.
David Clarkson needs a hoveround some days.
Rolston would rather see if his shot can break a glass pane.
Marty is older and reacts like two seconds after a goal is scored on him.
Hedberg is considered the younger goalie at 37.
Zajac is lost without Parise
Parise is injured.
Langs phoned it in.
A combination of losing and age has zapped Arnott's morale.
Palmieri looks good(but he still looks like the crying Giants fan)
Zharkov is still snakebitten
White is pretty darn good for a cyclops.
Tallinder keeps hoping Tyler Myers magically appears
Volchenkov has to curb his bread and butter of blocked shots cuz his goalie doesn't like it.
Fayne is making rookie mistakes.
Fraser is a hot head who can't pass out of the zone
Greene switched places with his lesser talented doppleganger.
Salvador can't say anything but "My name is Sal!" at this current point.

Yeah but everything is all Kovy's fault.

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#112 DaneykoIsGod

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Posted 12 January 2011 - 02:56 PM

Wait, with 20/20 hindsight you'd still do the Rolston move? You think that Kovalchuk has put us into cap-hell with his $6.66mill cap-hit, but have no problem with Rolston's $5+mill cap-hit? If Rolston were on another team playing the way he has played the last three years and with his current cap-hit, would you trade Kovalchuk for Rolston straight up?


Rolston would be scoring 50 goals if it wasn't for Kovalchuk.
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#113 Devils1985

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Posted 12 January 2011 - 02:59 PM

See my above post. Atlanta knew that Chi had to shed salary but I don't think they knew they would fall a$$-backwards into a deal with those 4 players involved.

From what I can recall Atlanta tried to keep Kovalchuk, it's not exactly like they were pushing him out the door.


But when they couldn’t they then had the flexibility to do those deals.

I think part of the problem with the Kovalchuk signing is it’s like putting a more powerful engine in a car without upgrading and recalibrating the suspension, beefing up the brakes, adding traction control, putting on better tires…sure you’ve got all this power but you spin wheels and once you do get going it corners horribly because the whole thing is out of balance.

Just from a talent, style of play and ‘system’ perspective Kovy is a square peg in a round hole on this team.

Add in all the other problems that existed before he got here and new ones that have developed since he arrived that he had nothing to do with (Broduer not playing well, JMac not getting it done) and you’ve got 11 wins at the mid point.

I will say that when they traded for him I was a bit concerned about how his style of play (specifically defensively) would mesh with The System.

Of course there’s plenty of time to build the team into one that Kovy can succeed on. Only history will say whether this signing was a disaster.
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#114 MantaRay

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Posted 12 January 2011 - 03:04 PM

Wait, with 20/20 hindsight you'd still do the Rolston move? You think that Kovalchuk has put us into cap-hell with his $6.66mill cap-hit, but have no problem with Rolston's $5+mill cap-hit? If Rolston were on another team playing the way he has played the last three years and with his current cap-hit, would you trade Kovalchuk for Rolston straight up?


Yes. Rolston fits the system much better. Rolston was a very good PP QB and made the PP become respectable early last season.

I find it funny that people are criticizing Rolston and defending Kovy, when they year-to-year their numbers are identical except Rolston had more goals and a better +- through 41 games.

Rolston 2009-10: 13 13 23 + 4 22
Kovy 2010-11: 10 13 23 -29 22
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#115 iamtheprodigy

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Posted 12 January 2011 - 03:06 PM

I thought the Rolston signing was a good move. I still do.


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Edited by iamtheprodigy, 12 January 2011 - 03:07 PM.

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#116 Triumph

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Posted 12 January 2011 - 03:07 PM

they can be seasoned, sure. but andy greene has been awful. urbom would be no better and probably worse right now but i would hope that this year in the minors brings him to greene's current level next year, if not more.


you underestimate how good greene is and overestimate how good urbom would be. i would hope that this year would be a primer on what happens when you just throw rookie defensemen into the mix. greene is at 7 shots more for than against this year per 60, and while a lot of that is score effects, i have a hard time imagining that urbom is at that level, especially as albany continues to be crushed shots-wise. greene obviously has to do a better job of covering the net.

but i'm not sure andy has earned more than two years - at $1-$1.5MM. he's a place holder and getting top 4 minutes because there is no alternative. i would like to think the devils could get another tallinder type that can make a pass for not a ton.


free agency is a vast wasteland this year. i'd go up to 1.8 per on a 2 year deal, and maybe 1.6 on a 3 year deal.

also, i just want to say that i like your posts very much.


i can't tell if this is a reference to what i referenced. :(
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#117 NewarkDevil5

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Posted 12 January 2011 - 03:11 PM

Yes. Rolston fits the system much better. Rolston was a very good PP QB and made the PP become respectable early last season.

I find it funny that people are criticizing Rolston and defending Kovy, when they year-to-year their numbers are identical except Rolston had more goals and a better +- through 41 games.

Rolston 2009-10: 13 13 23 + 4 22
Kovy 2010-11: 10 13 23 -29 22


Are you seriously going to compare Rolston's numbers from a year ago to Kovalchuk this year? How about an apples to apples comparison:
Year Team GP G A Pts +/-
Kovalchuk 2009-2010
2009-10 ATL 49 31 27 58 +1
2009-10 NJ 27 10 17 27 +9

Rolston 2009-2010
2009-10 NJ 80 20 17 37 +2

Or if you'd rather from this year:
Kovalchuk
2010-11 NJ 41 10 13 23 -29
Rolston
2010-11 NJ 25 2 5 7 -11

Edited by NewarkDevil5, 12 January 2011 - 03:12 PM.

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#118 MantaRay

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Posted 12 January 2011 - 03:12 PM

Are you seriously going to compare Rolston's numbers from a year ago to Kovalchuk this year? How about an apples to apples comparison:
Year Team GP G A Pts +/- PIM Hits BkS PPG PPA SHG SHA GW SOG Pct
Kovalchuk 2009-2010
2009-10 ATL 49 31 27 58 1 45 13 16 10 9 0 0 3 179 .173
2009-10 NJ 27 10 17 27 9 8 17 4 2 6 0 0 1 111 .090

Rolston 2009-2010
2009-10 NJ 80 20 17 37 2 22 91 19 7 6 0 0 3 232 .086

Or if you'd rather from this year:
Kovalchuk
2010-11 NJ 41 10 13 23 -29 22 14 4 4 6 0 0 3 118 .085
Rolston
2010-11 NJ 25 2 5 7 -11 12 30 9 1 1 0 0 0 50 .040


Wow. Your really not following the conversation are you?
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#119 DaneykoIsGod

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Posted 12 January 2011 - 03:13 PM

Yes. Rolston fits the system much better. Rolston was a very good PP QB and made the PP become respectable early last season.

I find it funny that people are criticizing Rolston and defending Kovy, when they year-to-year their numbers are identical except Rolston had more goals and a better +- through 41 games.

Rolston 2009-10: 13 13 23 + 4 22
Kovy 2010-11: 10 13 23 -29 22


How many goals did the Devils have as a team after 41 games last year?

You don't have to be Einstein to understand relativity.
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#120 iamtheprodigy

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Posted 12 January 2011 - 03:13 PM

Yes. Rolston fits the system much better. Rolston was a very good PP QB and made the PP become respectable early last season.

I find it funny that people are criticizing Rolston and defending Kovy, when they year-to-year their numbers are identical except Rolston had more goals and a better +- through 41 games.

Rolston 2009-10: 13 13 23 + 4 22
Kovy 2010-11: 10 13 23 -29 22


Perfectly logical argument if you leave out the tricky little detail that one team was in first place and the other is in last place.
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