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#21 PeteyNice

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 07:38 AM

Why is it that people like you are willing to sacrifice lives in the name of morality, but of course not your own because then it's "different"


Who says I am not? In your ridiculous hypothetical bomb situation, I am perfectly willing to die.

Why is it that people like you are all for being generous and donating to charity, as long as it's not your money being donated


You know nothing of how much money I donate to charity nor is it any of your business.

Why is it that people like you are all for open borders, yet you live nowhere near a border and are not affected by illegal immigrants, drug crime, crime in general. Yet if a crime involving an illegal immigrant did affect you(hopefully never-touch wood) then it's different.


Again, you are just putting words in my mouth and making things up. I do not necessarily support open borders but if you don't crack down on employers that provide the opportunity first and foremost then nothing else matters.

...


Noise and name calling. Not worth a response.


Tell me, what is the difference between the Egyptian populace "with legitimate grievances" that was "left with no options" in trying to reason with an "unresponsive government" and resorted to violence, and the United States populace, with legitimate grievances ( fear of being blown up, or poisoned, or shot by terrorists) that was left with no options and had to use persuasive measures to garner information to thwart further attacks on it's people because "reasoning" with Al Qaeda has been "unresponsive"


Really? You are comparing a popular uprising against a totalitarian regime with government sanctioned torture? I know cons are masters of the false equivalence but that is just bizarre.

IIRC, you aren't a real American so it is understandable that you can't comprehend this, but America is supposed to support democracy everywhere in the World - not just in countries where we think the people will elect someone that will support our interests. I know that we have not always followed that standard but that is no reason to abandon it now.
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#22 halfsharkalligatorhalfman

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 09:21 AM

America is supposed to support democracy everywhere in the World - not just in countries where we think the people will elect someone that will support our interests. I know that we have not always followed that standard but that is no reason to abandon it now.


As long as it's a democracy built to stand. The concern is that it will only be a temporary democracy where a group like the Muslim Brotherhood uses popular sentiment to establish a second dictatorship similar to Iran after their revolution. Just being a democracy for 5 minutes is not good enough.

Edited by halfsharkalligatorhalfman, 30 January 2011 - 09:21 AM.

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#23 PeteyNice

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 09:43 AM

As long as it's a democracy built to stand. The concern is that it will only be a temporary democracy where a group like the Muslim Brotherhood uses popular sentiment to establish a second dictatorship similar to Iran after their revolution. Just being a democracy for 5 minutes is not good enough.


That is speculation based on what? Have you seen or read anything to suggest a thing is even remotely likely? Or is just the presence of a group like the Muslim Brotherhood (which is much more moderate and open than the groups that run other Arab countries)? The Iranian Revolution was based on religion. This is not.
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#24 halfsharkalligatorhalfman

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 10:57 AM

That is speculation based on what? Have you seen or read anything to suggest a thing is even remotely likely? Or is just the presence of a group like the Muslim Brotherhood (which is much more moderate and open than the groups that run other Arab countries)? The Iranian Revolution was based on religion. This is not.


It's just speculation based on other failed transitions to "democracy" throughout history. Iran, Russia, France, etc. Hell, Hitler was democratically elected. The Iranian revolution had democrats and students calling for modernization but they were overwhelmed by Khomeini's people and the democracy became a theocracy. Just because a democracy is established right away, doesn't mean it's built to last. A rock solid constitution is needed or else a democratically elected figure may take control and refuse to cede power.
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#25 SS-SS

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 11:54 AM

As long as it's a democracy built to stand. The concern is that it will only be a temporary democracy where a group like the Muslim Brotherhood uses popular sentiment to establish a second dictatorship similar to Iran after their revolution. Just being a democracy for 5 minutes is not good enough.

What you are saying would never happen if there is democratic Elections.

In a democratic election the Muslim Brotherhood is a group that would get something like 10 % to 15 % of the votes in Egypt.
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#26 halfsharkalligatorhalfman

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 12:32 PM

What you are saying would never happen if there is democratic Elections.

In a democratic election the Muslim Brotherhood is a group that would get something like 10 % to 15 % of the votes in Egypt.


I honestly don't know much, but from watching Al Jazeera they make it sound like it is the strongest opposition group in the nation, and that there is a leadership void at the head of the movement. They said something about them getting 20% in an election that was filled with voter intimidation, etc. Though as far as I can tell, ElBaradei is sort of taking the reigns of the movement currently so who knows...

Edited by halfsharkalligatorhalfman, 30 January 2011 - 12:32 PM.

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#27 SS-SS

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 12:54 PM

I honestly don't know much, but from watching Al Jazeera they make it sound like it is the strongest opposition group in the nation, and that there is a leadership void at the head of the movement. They said something about them getting 20% in an election that was filled with voter intimidation, etc. Though as far as I can tell, ElBaradei is sort of taking the reigns of the movement currently so who knows...

Al-Jazeera is always reporting crazy things...many people stopped watching this channel because of the amount of bull-crap they say.

From the day the protests began, they are throwing false info.5 people die, Al Jazeera reports 15 and its like this in every thing they talk about.

And btw the Muslim Brotherhood never got even 1 % of the votes since Mubarak always win the election with 99.99 % of the votes. :rolleyes:
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#28 Daniel

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 01:53 PM

My link

Apparently Israeli tourists in Egypt do not feel threatened by the current political state. Regardless of how you feel about Israel, this seems like pretty good news, even though it's just anecdotal.
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#29 Daniel

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 12:05 PM

Muslim Brotherhood will scrap peace treaty with Israel if it comes to power. My link

Something to keep in mind when dopes like Tom Friedman talk about the urgency of peace talks between Israel and Hamas. Islamic fundamentalists are not interested in a lasting peace deal with Israel, and are prepared to rip up existing treaties in aid of their stated goal of exterminating all Jews in the middle east. (And blowing up synagogues and the like outside of the middle east).
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#30 point

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Posted 04 February 2011 - 01:34 PM

I received this from a gentleman who operates a frm in central NJ:

Organic Food, Justice and Egypt…!

Dear all,

I write this message to you all today during very dangerous and tumultuous times for our country, the Middle East, and the whole world! Yes, Egypt is that important.

As some of you know, I was born in Egypt. I have lived in the US since 1980. My undergraduate and post graduate education occurred right here in some of the best American universities and I am a naturalized American citizen for many, many years now. My wife is of Egyptian parents but was born in the US and all three of my daughters are Americans as well. My parents, brother and extended family, however, are all in Egypt. Food is running short and so is medicine (my father is 86 and mother is 71 - both in poor health).

I will, for as long as I am meant to live, maintain my identity and cultural reference point as being Egyptian and an Arab, with pride!

My urgent message to all who will read this is simple; please do what you can to support justice. I remember a saying that goes "know justice (and you will) know peace, no justice (and there will be) no peace". This is true on the personal level, the family level, the community/society level and on the national/international level. Justice is the foundation of peace - in every way.

Though I am a scientist by formal education and an agripreneur in practical life through 'the XXXXX project', I have to say my opinion on what is happening in Egypt/the Middle East right now - even if this angers some of my potential customers. Just as growing food organically and practicing sustainable agriculture is - to me - a matter of justice, so is the issue of the basic human right to a free and democratic political process in a civil society governed by civilians, not military, governments.

Western Europe and North America have, for the past few decades, supported totalitarian, oppressive, and repressive dictatorships in Arab countries in North Africa and the Middle East, because these regimes were willing to guarantee the foreign policy interest of Europe and America. Geo-strategic influence, access to cheap energy sources (oil) and the Arab-Israeli conflict being the major issues. The price for this has been a life of suffering and oppression suffered by almost three generations of Arabs who have repeatedly appealed to the supporters and proponents of democracy (Europe and America) to support their efforts to get their political and human rights.

At this very moment in Egypt, which is the most important Arab country due to its influence on and cultural and historical leadership of other Arab populations, those three generations of oppressed and repressed citizens are erupting in protests to change the regime from Mubarak's military regime [aided by the corrupt National Democratic (!) Party, and the internal security apparatus] to a civilian regime that comes about by free and fair elections.

They are paying the price for their brave willingness to claim their God-given rights, with their very lives in fact. They look to America and Europe and say 'Help us!', support our call for freedom, justice and political freedom! But the response from Europe and America has been diplomatic double speak and non-committal statements that enrage the demonstrators who are losing their lives as you read this.

I cannot emphasize enough how critical it is that America supports, unequivocally and very loudly and effectively, the demonstrators. The thugs set loose on the demonstrators by the regime are right now using machetes, sticks, stones, guns and shotguns, and any other weapon they can get. These demonstrators will remember, for a very long time, America's stance today. If we have been worried about Al-Qaeda fomenting extremism among Muslim Arabs in the Middle East, the effects of America's practical support for the totalitarian regime (tacit as it may be described - it is support nonetheless) will be to create hundreds of thousands of violent, extremist and angry Muslim youth, both men and women. We cannot afford this. The world cannot afford this.

Please, help me and help yourselves. Protect those I love and those whom you love. Call your political representatives and ask them to tell the Whitehouse that America must immediately pressure, with all the cards it holds, the Egyptian regime to give in - without any further delay!! If the US threatens the Egyptian military with losing their $1.3 billion in US aid, they will force Mubarak and his corrupt regime out. They will even agree to a civil government. But not if the US does not loudly threaten them. Tell them our tax dollars should not keep going to prop up this dictator!!

Please contact anyone you know and tell them to support justice for the people of Egypt, and the Middle East. Can you imagine how different the world would be if the Muslim Arab countries were actually and truly our allies!! America has had political allies in the totalitarian regimes ruling these countries - but that is how it has been losing the battle for the hearts and minds of average Muslims and Arabs. This is a critical moment in world history. We cannot let those who hate Islam and Arabs continue to force our foreign policy to be unfair. We are creating the militant Muslims who hate us, far more than Al-Qaeda. All they are asking for - both as Muslim Arabs and Christian Arabs -is justice and freedom. There is nothing to fear if we support them in these claims. On the contrary, we have everything to gain....

Please help me in any way you can. I am sorry for this lengthy message...
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#31 Daniel

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Posted 04 February 2011 - 01:56 PM

I received this from a gentleman who operates a frm in central NJ:

Organic Food, Justice and Egypt…!

Dear all,

I write this message to you all today during very dangerous and tumultuous times for our country, the Middle East, and the whole world! Yes, Egypt is that important.

As some of you know, I was born in Egypt. I have lived in the US since 1980. My undergraduate and post graduate education occurred right here in some of the best American universities and I am a naturalized American citizen for many, many years now. My wife is of Egyptian parents but was born in the US and all three of my daughters are Americans as well. My parents, brother and extended family, however, are all in Egypt. Food is running short and so is medicine (my father is 86 and mother is 71 - both in poor health).

I will, for as long as I am meant to live, maintain my identity and cultural reference point as being Egyptian and an Arab, with pride!

My urgent message to all who will read this is simple; please do what you can to support justice. I remember a saying that goes "know justice (and you will) know peace, no justice (and there will be) no peace". This is true on the personal level, the family level, the community/society level and on the national/international level. Justice is the foundation of peace - in every way.

Though I am a scientist by formal education and an agripreneur in practical life through 'the XXXXX project', I have to say my opinion on what is happening in Egypt/the Middle East right now - even if this angers some of my potential customers. Just as growing food organically and practicing sustainable agriculture is - to me - a matter of justice, so is the issue of the basic human right to a free and democratic political process in a civil society governed by civilians, not military, governments.

Western Europe and North America have, for the past few decades, supported totalitarian, oppressive, and repressive dictatorships in Arab countries in North Africa and the Middle East, because these regimes were willing to guarantee the foreign policy interest of Europe and America. Geo-strategic influence, access to cheap energy sources (oil) and the Arab-Israeli conflict being the major issues. The price for this has been a life of suffering and oppression suffered by almost three generations of Arabs who have repeatedly appealed to the supporters and proponents of democracy (Europe and America) to support their efforts to get their political and human rights.

At this very moment in Egypt, which is the most important Arab country due to its influence on and cultural and historical leadership of other Arab populations, those three generations of oppressed and repressed citizens are erupting in protests to change the regime from Mubarak's military regime [aided by the corrupt National Democratic (!) Party, and the internal security apparatus] to a civilian regime that comes about by free and fair elections.

They are paying the price for their brave willingness to claim their God-given rights, with their very lives in fact. They look to America and Europe and say 'Help us!', support our call for freedom, justice and political freedom! But the response from Europe and America has been diplomatic double speak and non-committal statements that enrage the demonstrators who are losing their lives as you read this.

I cannot emphasize enough how critical it is that America supports, unequivocally and very loudly and effectively, the demonstrators. The thugs set loose on the demonstrators by the regime are right now using machetes, sticks, stones, guns and shotguns, and any other weapon they can get. These demonstrators will remember, for a very long time, America's stance today. If we have been worried about Al-Qaeda fomenting extremism among Muslim Arabs in the Middle East, the effects of America's practical support for the totalitarian regime (tacit as it may be described - it is support nonetheless) will be to create hundreds of thousands of violent, extremist and angry Muslim youth, both men and women. We cannot afford this. The world cannot afford this.

Please, help me and help yourselves. Protect those I love and those whom you love. Call your political representatives and ask them to tell the Whitehouse that America must immediately pressure, with all the cards it holds, the Egyptian regime to give in - without any further delay!! If the US threatens the Egyptian military with losing their $1.3 billion in US aid, they will force Mubarak and his corrupt regime out. They will even agree to a civil government. But not if the US does not loudly threaten them. Tell them our tax dollars should not keep going to prop up this dictator!!

Please contact anyone you know and tell them to support justice for the people of Egypt, and the Middle East. Can you imagine how different the world would be if the Muslim Arab countries were actually and truly our allies!! America has had political allies in the totalitarian regimes ruling these countries - but that is how it has been losing the battle for the hearts and minds of average Muslims and Arabs. This is a critical moment in world history. We cannot let those who hate Islam and Arabs continue to force our foreign policy to be unfair. We are creating the militant Muslims who hate us, far more than Al-Qaeda. All they are asking for - both as Muslim Arabs and Christian Arabs -is justice and freedom. There is nothing to fear if we support them in these claims. On the contrary, we have everything to gain....

Please help me in any way you can. I am sorry for this lengthy message...


His sentiments are all well and good, but if the Muslim Brotherhood takes over, which is what the smart money is on, and despite their claims of committment to non-violence and democracy, Egypt will be back to dictatorship in no time at all, this time with a theocratic agenda. And believe me, if that comes to pass, you'll see Egyptian Christians fleeing the country just as you saw Christians and Jews fleeing Iran when the Ayatollah took control. (Coptic Christians already incur violence and discrimination, imagine when you have an explicily fundamentalist government in charge, who's holy book commands non-Muslims to be second-class citizens).

So far as what this means for US policy? We're not sending the marines in to prop up Mubarkak or install a government of our choosing, so really, despite dopey editorials that say the US should lend support to this group or that, it'll ultimately be up to the Egyptians. Just because it might turn out to be some parliamentary democracy, however, doesn't mean the results will be good or in the US's interests.
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#32 point

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Posted 04 February 2011 - 02:15 PM

Maybe you missed the bombing of the Coptic (Christian) church on New Years Eve. Christians aren't tolerated all that well in Egypt right now.

Anyway, the Egyptian people will pick their next government, not us. The Muslim Brotherhood disavowed violence thirty years ago and is working at the political level; which sure beats trying to overthrow the powers that be. I would not bet on its becoming the popular choice.

And, obviously, there isn't a lot of agreement around this site on whether or not we in the USA have a government that represents us all.
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#33 Daniel

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Posted 04 February 2011 - 02:39 PM

Maybe you missed the bombing of the Coptic (Christian) church on New Years Eve. Christians aren't tolerated all that well in Egypt right now.

Anyway, the Egyptian people will pick their next government, not us. The Muslim Brotherhood disavowed violence thirty years ago and is working at the political level; which sure beats trying to overthrow the powers that be. I would not bet on its becoming the popular choice.

And, obviously, there isn't a lot of agreement around this site on whether or not we in the USA have a government that represents us all.



That was my point. Copts already face violence with an ostensibly secular government in charge. Imagine what's going to happen when the theocrats take over. And yes, they are theocrats.

And disavowing violence? They certainly have no problem using terrorists as proxies to suit their own ends (see, e.g. Hamas). And their stated goal when coming to power is to break political ties with Israel, which in all likelihood will mean direct support for terrorist groups like Hamas, and, at least under the table, Hezbollah. (And note, this isn't meant to say that a government that doesn't want to have ties with Israel is somehow a political non-starter in and of itself. It's that a political movement that sincerely supports the notion of the destruction of one of its neighbors is not exactly the hallmark of non-violence).

Disagreement here about whether the government "represents us at all"? What exactly does that have to do with the price of tea in China? I don't particularly like our government either, but a represeentative government/real democracy is not about that. Question, do you honestly feel that the government is going to support people to go and blow-up synagogues, mosques, Catholic Churches or whatever in the US? Have you ever feared facing criminal sanctions for expressing an opinion or voting a particular way? Did George Bush, Obama, Nancy Pelosi, Gingrich, Boehner push for legislation that would prescribe a relgious dress code for women and command that the criminal code jibe with a religious text? (And in any event, I'm not quite sure what a government that "represents us all" actually is, especially when you have 300 million people who have very different ideas of what the government should be doing).

These are all very real threats a government run by the Muslim Brotherhood presents. Yes, I realize the situation under Mubarak isn't much better and probably worse in at least some respects. It's just that the prospect of who's going to be in charge doesn't make me all too excited, and scares me more in certain respects.

Edited by Daniel, 04 February 2011 - 02:41 PM.

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#34 jagknife

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Posted 12 February 2011 - 06:54 PM

I'm gonna chime back in here:

Congratulations to the Egyptian People for earning their freedom and earning their change.

When this first broke out, I did not respect the movement for the looting and the people who were being overly violent, etc. Today, however, I am very impressed with how after their victory, they again came out united to clean up the streets and what had been destroyed.

It is incredible and commendable to see their unity.
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#35 devilsadvoc8

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 10:06 AM

Well, if there are any doubts about the Muslim Brotherhood and its intentions:

Kill, kill

I don't mind the call to disobey it is call for assassination that is bothersome. Killing does not excuse killing.

Edited by devilsadvoc8, 22 February 2011 - 10:07 AM.

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#36 eaglejelly

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 01:13 PM

Well, if there are any doubts about the Muslim Brotherhood and its intentions:

Kill, kill

I don't mind the call to disobey it is call for assassination that is bothersome. Killing does not excuse killing.

Consequently you should call out all people who want Osama bin Laden dead. Seriously, you are calling them out because they want Gaddafi dead who has planes shooting into demonstration crowds?


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#37 devilsadvoc8

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 02:38 PM

Consequently you should call out all people who want Osama bin Laden dead. Seriously, you are calling them out because they want Gaddafi dead who has planes shooting into demonstration crowds?


So in your book its A-OK for a "spiritual leader" to identify other people for assassination? Maybe i have split the hair too finely but I see a big difference between that and the US government looking to bring OBL to justice (dead or alive). What if the pope or even a cardinal had said this? Can you imagine the outrage?

Edited by devilsadvoc8, 22 February 2011 - 02:40 PM.

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#38 eaglejelly

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 02:51 PM

So in your book its A-OK for a "spiritual leader" to identify other people for assassination? Maybe i have split the hair too finely but I see a big difference between that and the US government looking to bring OBL to justice (dead or alive). What if the pope or even a cardinal had said this? Can you imagine the outrage?


I am not trying to defend this guy, I just believe you chose a very bad example to call him out. Considering what Gaddafi is doing right now, I can fully understand why people want him dead.
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#39 squishyx

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 07:58 PM

So in your book its A-OK for a "spiritual leader" to identify other people for assassination? Maybe i have split the hair too finely but I see a big difference between that and the US government looking to bring OBL to justice (dead or alive). What if the pope or even a cardinal had said this? Can you imagine the outrage?

Two things are funny to me, first that you compare al-Qaradawi to the pope or a cardinal. Gaddafi has actively promoting war on his own people, I'd be fine if the pope came out and called for his death.

Second, you think this guy calling for Gaddafi's assassination is proof of their "real intentions". Did it occur to you that maybe the muslim brotherhood might have an issue with a tryant killing it's own muslim citizens and has nothing to do with us?
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