155 replies to this topic

[DaneykoIsGod]

I don't quite remember either, but I agree with this. Yes, he was one of the best defensemen the Devils ever had, but he could have been so much more. His win in the fastest skater contest at the All-Star Game that one year (I forget which year) cemented that for me. He made it look so easy that you had to wonder how much of his talent he was holding back.

That's a tricky thing to judge. Niedermayer certainly wasn't the first athlete to be so talented that he came off as not trying, and he won't be the last. The question is, do you want someone who tries, but doesn't look like it? Or someone who doesn't try, but looks like he does. Like ...

[Pepperkorn]

Not trying is also an act. It establishes a certain expectation. Would you rather be known as the multi-cup winning Conn Smythe winning Norris trophy winning apathetic under-achiever? Because of his talent being known as a hard worker, a grinder, -- it seems like being a scrub to him. He had to maintain the illusion that it was all effortless to him -- he can turn it on and off whenever he wants. Hence his real need to retire so early. He NEVER could hack viewing himself as struggling.

It was an act. he left New Jersey because he didn't want to face the failure of not being able to fill Stevens's skates. And he couldn't because he was trying for something that wasn't his. So he had to move on to new territory to succeed on his own. You all get to say he chose to be with his brother but fact is he escaped a tough situation. it's his prerogative. I'm a rude person and want everyone to draw attention to his flaws.... lack of effort is a FAKE flaw. It's what he WANTS YOU TO SAY! Far better than ever giving it your all and coming up short He's such a disreputable lying a$$hole.


Awe he's not -- I know he's not really all that bad. He's just protecting himself. It's just what he's choosing to protect is not something I think is of value. I think it highlights a character flaw I could not tolerate in anyone I loved. He can never achieve any true perfection - and by all account it appears like he has and I find that - just dissatisfying. Everything is there and it's just so amazingly empty and dissatisfying to me from a hockey standpoint.

Edited by Pepperkorn, 07 February 2011 - 09:35 AM.

[DaneykoIsGod]

It wasn't an act. He was just that good.

This is getting ridiculous. An athlete being so good that he makes it look easy is something he should be praised for, not have scorn heaped upon him for. Instead of trying to win, we'd rather our athletes try to look like they're trying?

Montana's cool and precision. Griffey Jr.'s swing. Jordan's gift of flight. These are things that should reaffirm our love of sports. Athletes so skilled, so finely-tuned, that they make the extraordinary look easy. Niedermayer's stride belongs in that pantheon.

[Pepperkorn]

And what bugs me about Lou is his struggle to appear impartial is the ONLY thing that will move him to make a major decision against his personal hockey values. He thinks that impartiality is part of his hockey values. But it's not... it's a chink in his armour that I think people have and will continue to exploit.

I dont' know how to put it into words for him -- so he can see sticking to his values IS being impartial. How can you say -- your values ARE hockey so betraying them is not impartial. Caving for the sake of impartiality is in fact caving to current popular opinion. Hockey is timeless and you have to trust your personal opinion to the letter. and of course as I clack away on the keyboard I see that compromise has to be a part if it all.... just... WHY? I don't get it....

[ThreeCups]

It wasn't an act. He was just that good.

This is getting ridiculous. An athlete being so good that he makes it look easy is something he should be praised for, not have scorn heaped upon him for. Instead of trying to win, we'd rather our athletes try to look like they're trying?

Montana's cool and precision. Griffey Jr.'s swing. Jordan's gift of flight. These are things that should reaffirm our love of sports. Athletes so skilled, so finely-tuned, that they make the extraordinary look easy. Niedermayer's stride belongs in that pantheon.

+1

The majority of this thread has been complete nonsense

[ThreeCups]

Not trying is also an act. It establishes a certain expectation. Would you rather be known as the multi-cup winning Conn Smythe winning Norris trophy winning apathetic under-achiever? Because of his talent being known as a hard worker, a grinder, -- it seems like being a scrub to him. He had to maintain the illusion that it was all effortless to him -- he can turn it on and off whenever he wants. Hence his real need to retire so early. He NEVER could hack viewing himself as struggling.

It was an act. he left New Jersey because he didn't want to face the failure of not being able to fill Stevens's skates. And he couldn't because he was trying for something that wasn't his. So he had to move on to new territory to succeed on his own. You all get to say he chose to be with his brother but fact is he escaped a tough situation. it's his prerogative. I'm a rude person and want everyone to draw attention to his flaws.... lack of effort is a FAKE flaw. It's what he WANTS YOU TO SAY! Far better than ever giving it your all and coming up short He's such a disreputable lying a$$hole.


Awe he's not -- I know he's not really all that bad. He's just protecting himself. It's just what he's choosing to protect is not something I think is of value. I think it highlights a character flaw I could not tolerate in anyone I loved. He can never achieve any true perfection - and by all account it appears like he has and I find that - just dissatisfying. Everything is there and it's just so amazingly empty and dissatisfying to me from a hockey standpoint.

To say that he left because he couldn't "fill Stevens' skates" is lunacy. It also proves that you can somehow try to relate ANYTHING to Scott Stevens. I know you have an unhealthy/stalkerish obsession with him, but COME ON. He wanted to win a Cup with his brother and that is it. Nieds' #27 will be up in the rafters at some point or another, and all of you detractors can cry about it then. I will be one of the many applauding him. He was a huge piece of this franchise's success, and his contributions should never be forgotten. Whether he left to go to Anaheim, or not....

[Jerrydevil]

It wasn't an act. He was just that good.

This is getting ridiculous. An athlete being so good that he makes it look easy is something he should be praised for, not have scorn heaped upon him for. Instead of trying to win, we'd rather our athletes try to look like they're trying?

Montana's cool and precision. Griffey Jr.'s swing. Jordan's gift of flight. These are things that should reaffirm our love of sports. Athletes so skilled, so finely-tuned, that they make the extraordinary look easy. Niedermayer's stride belongs in that pantheon.

Like ThreeCups said, it doesn't matter what critics say. He's getting his number retired.

I don't think anyone can deny he was a late bloomer. He wasn't a great player for most of his Jersey career. I can't help but think that the number retirement includes his Anaheim achievements, and that makes me lukewarm at best to a jersey retirement.

In my mind, the Brodeur and Stevens jerseys will hang higher in the rafters than all the others.

[Pepperkorn]

It wasn't an act. He was just that good.

This is getting ridiculous. An athlete being so good that he makes it look easy is something he should be praised for, not have scorn heaped upon him for. Instead of trying to win, we'd rather our athletes try to look like they're trying?

Montana's cool and precision. Griffey Jr.'s swing. Jordan's gift of flight. These are things that should reaffirm our love of sports. Athletes so skilled, so finely-tuned, that they make the extraordinary look easy. Niedermayer's stride belongs in that pantheon.

Ah so I should rephrase that for you? It never looked like he was NOT trying to me. I saw him get frustrated and take INCREDIBLY timely and stupid hooking penalties when he felt it was on his shoulders.

and guess what -- I find it BEYOND RIDICULOUS I am not allowed to have an opinion. A CONSISTENT OPINION SINCE I STARTED POSTING ON THIS BOARD. IN AUGUST 2001. When did you start posting here? So I'm pissing you off because I have a well considered response to what you consider a fool proof --- what? OPINION??????? WTF? Why do you have such a problem with my not liking Niedermayer? Seriously? I even give pretty thorough reasons that don't include bitterness.....

What crawled up your Niedermayer lovin' ass and died?

Edited by Pepperkorn, 07 February 2011 - 10:17 AM.

[Pepperkorn]

To say that he left because he couldn't "fill Stevens' skates" is lunacy. It also proves that you can somehow try to relate ANYTHING to Scott Stevens. I know you have an unhealthy/stalkerish obsession with him, but COME ON. He wanted to win a Cup with his brother and that is it. Nieds' #27 will be up in the rafters at some point or another, and all of you detractors can cry about it then. I will be one of the many applauding him. He was a huge piece of this franchise's success, and his contributions should never be forgotten. Whether he left to go to Anaheim, or not....

You know what -- it sounds like I touched a nerve here -- that I rocked the Niedermayer love boat.

I never said you all can't love him. I never said he wasn't BEYOND talented. I agree with everything everyone says about the guy. I don't even think he was a lazy schlub - I give him credit for AMAZING hard work. I in fact give him more credit than any of you guys are.

I'm sorry the reasons I set forth upset many of you. I can only assume with the strong reaction it's because you see the truth in it. Why take it so personally? Why does it upset you so I don't admire him as much as I do Scott Stevens? I wouldn't present any thoughts on the subject if you all just accepted my opinion. but you can't. Ever question WHY you all have to fight tooth and nail defending relatively minor observations about the guy;s character? Seriously.... I at least cop to an unnatural admiration of Scott Stevens. Which in fact -- I offer up as my own fall-back, proof that this really sian't all that serious or important to me despite my extreme vehemence in stating my opinion.

[Pepperkorn]

I wasn't a fan of Joe Montana (even though he is cute) nor Ken Griffey Jr. nor Michael Jordan. Jordan is the only indisputable phenom on that list but dare I post it without setting you off further?

[DaneykoIsGod]

Ah so I should rephrase that for you? It never looked like he was NOT trying to me. I saw him get frustrated and take INCREDIBLY timely and stupid hooking penalties when he felt it was on his shoulders.

and guess what -- I find it BEYOND RIDICULOUS I am not allowed to have an opinion. A CONSISTENT OPINION SINCE I STARTED POSTING ON THIS BOARD. IN AUGUST 2001. When did you start posting here? So I'm pissing you off because I have a well considered response to what you consider a fool proof --- what? OPINION??????? WTF? Why do you have such a problem with my not liking Niedermayer? Seriously? I even give pretty thorough reasons that don't include bitterness.....

What crawled up your Niedermayer lovin' ass and died?

Whoa whoa whoa ... when did I say you can't have an opinion? I'm just disagreeing with you. Am I not allowed to do that because you've been posting here longer than I have? (And playing that card is serious weak sauce, PK. You're above that.) Lighten up, champ. Same team.

[Pepperkorn]

You're disagreeing with the WRONG opinion.

I said he doesn't not make it look easy.... so...maybe you weren't ehem... responding to me

Yeah... in fact I HAVE agreed with everything everyone said. I just lost track of who you might be responding to

Yeah -- the only thing actually addressed to me was the Couldn't fill Stevens's skates comment (Stevens's is actually grammatically correct in standard writing -- however in journalism Stevens' woudl be correct just a little FYI for anyone that mentally wants to correct me every time I write that)

I think that's Niedermayer's strong point. He does know his limitations -- so well... so very well.... he's a major thinker analyzer. and he's beyond talented... I understand EVERYTHING... in fact it is BECAUSE I see that all so clearly I can't help but see him as a deceiver. Understandable --- it's all just self-preservation. it's also unnecessary he IS that good and that smart. There is nothing to protect. But he can't help himself. His foie gras fight... come on... You know -- I appreciate it all I do... but... I just can't hack it. I want his number retired here. because it only makes sense at the end of the day. btu the connection will never be there.

Niedermayer is the disappointment of a boyfriend. I am as obsessed with him as I am with Stevens... I married my husband! I dated so many Niedermayers... at the end of the day it clicks for them or it doesn't. When it doesn't it's such a huge waste.


So I used to say if he resigned with the Devils when he became unrestricted I'd change my view of him completely. I concede that is nto near enough time for a human being to mature into who he is. man 100 years isn't enough truthfully. So now... I'm looking to see what he does now.... he'll do nothing. He'll champion battery operated cars while not looking for a deeper solution. He'll save the ducks - but he wont' take the SECOND STEP... He never takes the second step on his path.

Hmehh -- why should he? A bunch of first steps is a great path. And the only really important second stpe you're all but pushed into (thankfully for Scott) is your children. and well frankly no, I dont trust him on that..... I wonder if it's not like father like son even - Carol's hard hard feel made me interested in that whole dynamic so when I say I wonder I mean I wonder what his father was like - I am assuming nothing.

So you all are correct and I've never disputed that, just wrote why I am not thrilled with it all like I was with Dano or Stevens and like I will be with Marty.... I just find Scott Niedermayer profoundly DISSATISFYING.

and yes my dissatisfaction shoudl take somethign away from him. Just because it's not just me. Many are dissatisfied and I can't chalk it up to mere bitterness. I'm not arguing with anyone just trying to articulate what it is people feel whether they know it or not even.

Edited by Pepperkorn, 07 February 2011 - 10:58 AM.

[Joe B]

You're disagreeing with the WRONG opinion.

I said he doesn't not make it look easy.... so...maybe you weren't ehem... responding to me

Yeah... in fact I HAVE agreed with everything everyone said. I just lost track of who you might be responding to

Yeah -- the only thing actually addressed to me was the Couldn't fill Stevens's skates comment (Stevens's is actually grammatically correct in standard writing -- however in journalism Stevens' woudl be correct just a little FYI for anyone that mentally wants to correct me every time I write that)

I think that's Niedermayer's strong point. He does know his limitations -- so well... so very well.... he's a major thinker analyzer. and he's beyond talented... I understand EVERYTHING... in fact it is BECAUSE I see that all so clearly I can't help but see him as a deceiver. Understandable --- it's all just self-preservation. it's also unnecessary he IS that good and that smart. There is nothing to protect. But he can't help himself. His foie gras fight... come on... You know -- I appreciate it all I do... but... I just can't hack it. I want his number retired here. because it only makes sense at the end of the day. btu the connection will never be there.

Niedermayer is the disappointment of a boyfriend. I am as obsessed with him as I am with Stevens... I married my husband! I dated so many Niedermayers... at the end of the day it clicks for them or it doesn't. When it doesn't it's such a huge waste.


So I used to say if he resigned with the Devils when he became unrestricted I'd change my view of him completely. I concede that is nto near enough time for a human being to mature into who he is. man 100 years isn't enough truthfully. So now... I'm looking to see what he does now.... he'll do nothing. He'll champion battery operated cars while not looking for a deeper solution. He'll save the ducks - but he wont' take the SECOND STEP... He never takes the second step on his path.

Hmehh -- why should he? A bunch of first steps is a great path. And the only really important second stpe you're all but pushed into (thankfully for Scott) is your children. and well frankly no, I dont trust him on that..... I wonder if it's not like father like son even - Carol's hard hard feel made me interested in that whole dynamic so when I say I wonder I mean I wonder what his father was like - I am assuming nothing.

So you all are correct and I've never disputed that, just wrote why I am not thrilled with it all like I was with Dano or Stevens and like I will be with Marty.... I just find Scott Niedermayer profoundly DISSATISFYING.

and yes my dissatisfaction shoudl take somethign away from him. Just because it's not just me. Many are dissatisfied and I can't chalk it up to mere bitterness. I'm not arguing with anyone just trying to articulate what it is people feel whether they know it or not even.

i remeber much of your nieds analysis from back in the day. admit it, you just don't like him becasue he is western candian. or has that wetern canada personality.

Joe

[Pepperkorn]

HEY -- do you even remember that post? I think I was wrong though I used to say he just wanted to board the half-pipe!


Fact is... I'd probably choose Niedermayer as Lou successor. He gets it COMPLETELY. but he's a wimp! he cuts bait at the first sign of discomfort. it drives me INSANE! So there's nothing. All of that there and it amounts to a nice trophy room for the Vegetarian pate eaters convention

[ThreeCups]

Like ThreeCups said, it doesn't matter what critics say. He's getting his number retired.

I don't think anyone can deny he was a late bloomer. He wasn't a great player for most of his Jersey career. I can't help but think that the number retirement includes his Anaheim achievements, and that makes me lukewarm at best to a jersey retirement.

In my mind, the Brodeur and Stevens jerseys will hang higher in the rafters than all the others.

Nieds' Devils' achievements are worthy of a jersey retirement alone. If he died the day after we won the 2003 Cup his #27 would still be in the rafters, and rightfully so.

[ThreeCups]

You know what -- it sounds like I touched a nerve here -- that I rocked the Niedermayer love boat.

I never said you all can't love him. I never said he wasn't BEYOND talented. I agree with everything everyone says about the guy. I don't even think he was a lazy schlub - I give him credit for AMAZING hard work. I in fact give him more credit than any of you guys are.

I'm sorry the reasons I set forth upset many of you. I can only assume with the strong reaction it's because you see the truth in it. Why take it so personally? Why does it upset you so I don't admire him as much as I do Scott Stevens? I wouldn't present any thoughts on the subject if you all just accepted my opinion. but you can't. Ever question WHY you all have to fight tooth and nail defending relatively minor observations about the guy;s character? Seriously.... I at least cop to an unnatural admiration of Scott Stevens. Which in fact -- I offer up as my own fall-back, proof that this really sian't all that serious or important to me despite my extreme vehemence in stating my opinion.

There is no "Niedermayer love boat". I was never a huge fan of his. But for people to think that he is not deserving of a jersey retirement is silly. His record here speaks for itself. He was an integral part of our "Championship Years" and who knows if we would have ANY Cups without him. I personally don't care if you hate the guy, but don't let that cloud your judgement regarding his #27 being retired.

Whoa whoa whoa ... when did I say you can't have an opinion? I'm just disagreeing with you. Am I not allowed to do that because you've been posting here longer than I have? (And playing that card is serious weak sauce, PK. You're above that.) Lighten up, champ. Same team.

Yea, the "veteran poster" schtick is definitely lame. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. But in MY opinion, anyone who doesn't think Nieds is worthy of a jersey retirement is letting their own personal view of the man get in the way of making a sound decision.

[Pepperkorn]

and I dont aprove of Foie gras... and BEYOND! So Nieds can protest -- well -- he just may raise his own chickens and make sure he uses there organs and all. He may hunt wild non-endangered fowl too Just he never strikes me as ever going the full mile is my point with the foie gras objection he can point well-deserved fingers and wankers but what other steps does he take? Does he disapprove of hunting but still wear leather and live a carnivore lifestyle?

[Pepperkorn]

There is no "Niedermayer love boat". I was never a huge fan of his. But for people to think that he is not deserving of a jersey retirement is silly. His record here speaks for itself. He was an integral part of our "Championship Years" and who knows if we would have ANY Cups without him. I personally don't care if you hate the guy, but don't let that cloud your judgement regarding his #27 being retired.



Yea, the "veteran poster" schtick is definitely lame. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. But in MY opinion, anyone who doesn't think Nieds is worthy of a jersey retirement is letting their own personal view of the man get in the way of making a sound decision.

so... have you actually read one of my posts or are you just skimming for the Stevens stuff? I have never said his shouldn't be retired -- just that it makes me feel dirty

If you dont care that I don't like the guy --- but I still think his number should be retired.... why are you quoting my posts and commenting? and never quoted anything that said his number shouldn't be... because I dont think I ever posted such a thing in ernest.

same conclusion in the end so what's your problem with me then? If you quote me I assume I'm the one you're writing to.... I made the mistake of assuming DiG was writing to me -- but he didn't' quote my post and I didn't' say what he was saying was stupid... so when light dawned I acknowledged he and I are indeed in agreement.

my only point is really that I've clearly paid HUGE AMOUNTS of attention to this man and his talent and what he brings to the table. I'm not some bitter lesser qualified person in this conversation. In my dislike of him I actually give him far more credit than any of you. but all you come back with is bitter silly rediculous clouded judgement Stevens obsessed... ehem... anyhow you get my point. Or actually if not, you never will

[RowdyFan42]

It wasn't an act. He was just that good.

This is getting ridiculous. An athlete being so good that he makes it look easy is something he should be praised for, not have scorn heaped upon him for. Instead of trying to win, we'd rather our athletes try to look like they're trying?

I'd rather our athletes show some heart. I'm starting to wish I hadn't posted the part about his abilities because I feel that's taking away from my main point about being a "Kool-Aid guy". I never got the sense from Niedermayer that he felt like a Devil. It just seemed like he was... there.

Montana's cool and precision. Griffey Jr.'s swing. Jordan's gift of flight. These are things that should reaffirm our love of sports. Athletes so skilled, so finely-tuned, that they make the extraordinary look easy. Niedermayer's stride belongs in that pantheon.

And what do all three of those athletes have in common? The game was just as much a part of them as they were a part of it. With Niedermayer, I got the sense that the game was simply a job that he was good at and paid him well.

Anyway, all of this stuff boils down to intangibles. Dano may not have the best player around but he had intangibles in spades. Stevens's career speaks for itself, as does Brodeur's and, if I may look far enough ahead, Elias's. Niedermayer was a good player, but for me the intangibles aren't there, and that's why, in my opinion, he shouldn't have his number retired. I won't object if the organization does it eventually -- I don't feel THAT strongly about it -- but it wouldn't quite feel right. I'd put him more in the Brylin category: worthy of some sort of lasting recognition, but not worthy of having his number taken out of circulation for all time.

[ThreeCups]

so... have you actually read one of my posts or are you just skimming for the Stevens stuff? I have never said his shouldn't be retired -- just that it makes me feel dirty

If you dont care that I don't like the guy --- but I still think his number should be retired.... why are you quoting my posts and commenting? and never quoted anything that said his number shouldn't be... because I dont think I ever posted such a thing in ernest.

same conclusion in the end so what's your problem with me then? If you quote me I assume I'm the one you're writing to.... I made the mistake of assuming DiG was writing to me -- but he didn't' quote my post and I didn't' say what he was saying was stupid... so when light dawned I acknowledged he and I are indeed in agreement.

my only point is really that I've clearly paid HUGE AMOUNTS of attention to this man and his talent and what he brings to the table. I'm not some bitter lesser qualified person in this conversation. In my dislike of him I actually give him far more credit than any of you. but all you come back with is bitter silly rediculous clouded judgement Stevens obsessed... ehem... anyhow you get my point. Or actually if not, you never will

I got lost amidst the many pages on here, and thought you stated in the beginning that you did not think he was worthy. As long as you acknowledge that he is indeed worthy of such an honor then go ahead and continue the postathons dissecting his career.....