155 replies to this topic

[CRASHER]

So you really think in 10 years from now Chris Pronger will be regarded as a better defenseman than Scotty Nieds?

I think he would if not for his reputation for being thuggish, he CARRIED an Oilers team to a SCF, and when he got traded that team went right to last place, he goes to Anaheim... gee they win a Cup.... comes to Phily.... SC Finals again.... this level of success is not a coincidence.... did it take him longer to grow into that kinda player? Yeah.... same can be said for Scott Stevens.....

Pronger also would have been the Conn Smythe when the Ducks run if he didn't get suspended in the Detroit series.....

It all depends on what you like in your D-man, you like toughness and fear factor....or do you like skill and finesse?

Of course, you're probably talking about his Cups and Olympic golds coming alongside Stevens or Pronger. Pronger vs Niedermayer is a debate that could go either way (I'd definitely say Nieds). Some pundits might also argue Nieds was better all-around than Stevens (though I wouldn't). He also got his Norris in the year Stevens was gone for most of the season, but you're probably talking more about team achievement than personal awards.

Your right, the World Championships are a consolation tournament, like the NIT of hockey.... by even playing there you didn't reach your goals for the season.... kinda the same thing on a juniors level.... we don't talk about Kevin Dean leading the Rats to a Calder Cup do we??

[Pepperkorn]

by the same token, scott stevens never won jack without another great defenseman on his team

Stevens certainly couldn't finish -- even WITH a HoF defender (Murphy or MacInnis)

which in a way kind of speaks to a need for a true leader to get out from under another true leader.

Both Nieds and Stevens needed to have their own team I guess...

[Pepperkorn]

Crasher -- that's why I give Nieds extra credit for the Ducks cup. I honestly think that was Nieds call. Knowing your limitations and having strong back-up is a good thing.

I;m telling you... if Nieds weren't such a pvssy he's the only man to fill Lou's shoes. But he's a WIMP He'd wuss out and cave and act all help;ess because he CAN'T SUCK IT UP! It all must be perfect perfect perfect or he'll QUIT!

[DaneykoIsGod]

Your right, the World Championships are a consolation tournament, like the NIT of hockey.... by even playing there you didn't reach your goals for the season.... kinda the same thing on a juniors level.... we don't talk about Kevin Dean leading the Rats to a Calder Cup do we??

You said he "NEVER won diddly without a BETTER defenseman on his team." I just showed that that statement is false.

(And FWIW, the Canadian Press said Nieds is "the only player in hockey history to have won the six major championships for Canadian players: Stanley Cup, Memorial Cup, world junior gold, IIHF World Championship gold, Olympic gold, and a World Cup of Hockey title." I don't see the words "consolation prize" anywhere. )

[Triumph]

I think he would if not for his reputation for being thuggish, he CARRIED an Oilers team to a SCF, and when he got traded that team went right to last place, he goes to Anaheim... gee they win a Cup.... comes to Phily.... SC Finals again.... this level of success is not a coincidence.... did it take him longer to grow into that kinda player? Yeah.... same can be said for Scott Stevens.....

Pronger also would have been the Conn Smythe when the Ducks run if he didn't get suspended in the Detroit series.....

It all depends on what you like in your D-man, you like toughness and fear factor....or do you like skill and finesse?

Pronger's made the playoffs the last 14 years in a row, and this year will be 15. Try to find me players who've made the playoffs 15 years and haven't had a few deep runs. Before the lockout he was considered a failure. Pronger's a great player, there's no doubt, but you can't take away Niedermayer's accomplishments just because he never really had a chance to shine without another great d man around.

I'm not a Niedermayer fan by any stretch, and I don't exactly agree with his jersey retirement, but let's be reasonable here.

[Pepperkorn]

I think he's an evil wimp genius

[El Diablo]

I *heart* pk

lets put her sweater up in the rafters ...

[Jerrydevil]

I consider Niedermayer to be the Devils second-best D-man ever and an integral part of the team's three Cups.

There is no question in my mind about this. He was a vital player for the Devils and he was one of the best defensemen the team has ever had ... probably No. 2, like you say.

I just can't make the jump to jersey retirement. That's a whole other level of greatness, and he didn't quite make it there IMO. But I've always been a hardass about this honor. I was against Daneyko getting it. In my little world, I wanted two jerseys and two jerseys only hanging from the rafters.

[CRASHER]

Crasher -- that's why I give Nieds extra credit for the Ducks cup. I honestly think that was Nieds call. Knowing your limitations and having strong back-up is a good thing.

I'd like to know how he knew a year later Chris Pronger's wife was gonna want out of Edmonton.... that's some SERIOUS psychic power.....
without Pronger it's HIGHLY debatable if the Ducks then were much better then the Devils when he went there....

You said he "NEVER won diddly without a BETTER defenseman on his team." I just showed that that statement is false.

(And FWIW, the Canadian Press said Nieds is "the only player in hockey history to have won the six major championships for Canadian players: Stanley Cup, Memorial Cup, world junior gold, IIHF World Championship gold, Olympic gold, and a World Cup of Hockey title." I don't see the words "consolation prize" anywhere. )

Sorry I left out "in the NHL" because it was all I was concerned about and all that mattered in the arguement

You tell me the player that his life dream is to win the IIHF World Championship and I'll take it back... until then it's winning the NIT, whoopdie damn do!

Pronger's made the playoffs the last 14 years in a row, and this year will be 15. Try to find me players who've made the playoffs 15 years and haven't had a few deep runs. Before the lockout he was considered a failure. Pronger's a great player, there's no doubt, but you can't take away Niedermayer's accomplishments just because he never really had a chance to shine without another great d man around.

I'm not a Niedermayer fan by any stretch, and I don't exactly agree with his jersey retirement, but let's be reasonable here.

He had one year in NJ and one year in Anaheim to "shine" as the lone guy on the team... didn't work too well either time....

And you tell me how many of those guys who make the playoffs all those years in a row (and maybe having a guy like Pronger who plays half the games in order to get those teams INTO the playoffs is WHY they got into the playoffs 15 years in a row), who took a team on his back like he did with Edmonton in the SCF run? And then the next year would have won a Conn Smythe minus a few stupid elbows in the Red Wing series??

Don't get me wrong I don't love Pronger either (though I did wish we had traded for him).... but I think he's better then Niedermayer

I'm not even going into the decade of under-achieving he had in New Jersey either......(Pronger and Stevens had similiar issues early in their career)

[Pepperkorn]

I'd like to know how he knew a year later Chris Pronger's wife was gonna want out of Edmonton.... that's some SERIOUS psychic power.....
without Pronger it's HIGHLY debatable if the Ducks then were much better then the Devils when he went there....

He's evil I tell you --- EEEEEeeeevil!

Seriously - there are always rumors around the league! Gossip especially about wives and stuff! and he's got two double agents in his wife AND his brother's. Also -- he's just looking for that cog and maybe it's luck Pronger was available and Ducks are in hip/safe land in Orange County.... no doubt things fell into place but all those flippin' "it juuust might work" plans are BULLsh!t well timed well considered perfectly thought out plans. and Neids had a BIG FAT HAND in the the COMPLETE success of the Ducks. Notice how he folded like a wanker after he achieved the goal It wasn't a personal priority anymore -- just his job. It's the same lack of honest commitment from the guy -- it's sporadic and he can't be trusted long term. and it sucks

[DaneykoIsGod]

Sorry I left out "in the NHL" because it was all I was concerned about and all that mattered in the arguement

Fair enough. But if your argument is that he never won in the NHL without Stevens or Pronger, then you're talking about two out of his 17 years in the league. Everyone has two years where they don't win it all. Even Ken Dryden.

[Triumph]

He had one year in NJ and one year in Anaheim to "shine" as the lone guy on the team... didn't work too well either time....

And you tell me how many of those guys who make the playoffs all those years in a row (and maybe having a guy like Pronger who plays half the games in order to get those teams INTO the playoffs is WHY they got into the playoffs 15 years in a row), who took a team on his back like he did with Edmonton in the SCF run? And then the next year would have won a Conn Smythe minus a few stupid elbows in the Red Wing series??

two years is nothing.

the edmonton oilers were one of the luckiest stanley cup finalists in recent memory. they were severely outchanced in every series, by every reasonable oiler's fan account i read. i know it's impossible as a devils fan to believe that teams actually get lucky in the playoffs, but they do. pronger was a rock that series, but the oil got outshot by 100 through the whole playoffs.

niedermayer was probably the front-runner for the conn smythe in 2003. i do like that you bring up theoretical awards though - i mean, c'mon.

Edited by Triumph, 08 February 2011 - 02:47 PM.

[StarDew]

He would either play with his brother or play for more money. Putting aside the teams involved, which reason do you think is more honorable?

They are both dishonorable however the latter is more common. Bobby Holik??? Scott Gomez???

[ThreeCups]

There is no question in my mind about this. He was a vital player for the Devils and he was one of the best defensemen the team has ever had ... probably No. 2, like you say.

I just can't make the jump to jersey retirement. That's a whole other level of greatness, and he didn't quite make it there IMO. But I've always been a hardass about this honor. I was against Daneyko getting it. In my little world, I wanted two jerseys and two jerseys only hanging from the rafters.

Against Dano's jersey being retired?!?!?!?!? Now I've heard it alllllllllllllllll.....

[devilsfan26]

They are both dishonorable however the latter is more common. Bobby Holik??? Scott Gomez???

Why is it dishonorable to take less money to play with your brother? What are some reasons for signing with a team that you consider honorable?

[StarDew]

Why is it dishonorable to take less money to play with your brother? What are some reasons for signing with a team that you consider honorable?

I don't recall if he took less money to play with his brother. I want to play with my brother is really silly imo. Yeah, working with family isn't always the best thing to do. I would never, ever work with family and I have learned never to work for a friend either. Pleasure and business are best kept separate.

Signing with another team after a contract expires and not saying anything prior is honorable. As soon as 'my current team is top of the list' then signing with another team at 12:01 AM on July 1 isn't honorable. Lying is not honorable. Keep your mouth shut if you have no intention of doing what you say. There is a lack of professionalism in sports when it comes to money. Hockey is the least offending sport.

[devilsfan26]

I don't recall if he took less money to play with his brother. I want to play with my brother is really silly imo. Yeah, working with family isn't always the best thing to do. I would never, ever work with family and I have learned never to work for a friend either. Pleasure and business are best kept separate.

Signing with another team after a contract expires and not saying anything prior is honorable. As soon as 'my current team is top of the list' then signing with another team at 12:01 AM on July 1 isn't honorable. Lying is not honorable. Keep your mouth shut if you have no intention of doing what you say. There is a lack of professionalism in sports when it comes to money. Hockey is the least offending sport.

First of all, a professional hockey player probably isn't all that similar to any occupation you or anyone here has had. Obviously it is still a job, but playing on the same hockey team as your brother isn't the same as working at the same office as your brother so the whole working with family thing goes right out the window in my opinion.

I'm pretty sure he did take less money, I don't have a source to back it up right now but I'm fairly confident that was the case just based on memory.

I'm not sure what you're talking about in the second paragraph. He signed three days after free agency started, so he didn't really take all that long, but I think it's unfair to say he lied.

[Triumph]

First of all, a professional hockey player probably isn't all that similar to any occupation you or anyone here has had. Obviously it is still a job, but playing on the same hockey team as your brother isn't the same as working at the same office as your brother so the whole working with family thing goes right out the window in my opinion.

I'm pretty sure he did take less money, I don't have a source to back it up right now but I'm fairly confident that was the case just based on memory.

I'm not sure what you're talking about in the second paragraph. He signed three days after free agency started, so he didn't really take all that long, but I think it's unfair to say he lied.

the devils offered him a max contract. the ducks offered significantly less than that.

[maxpower]

Philly was a bit of a lucky situation, too. they got a great draw in the first round, like when we got thrown the corpse of the Rangers coming out of the lockout, they got out from a 3-0 series lead *and* a 3-0 deficit in Game 7 in the second round (jesus, I don't even think we could blow that), somehow get the 8 seed and the only team they have home ice on in the entire playoffs, in the 3rd round, and then their goaltending luck ran out at a most inopportune time.

what they are doing this season is impressive, what they did last season was dumb luck. if you're in a skills competition with a playoff spot on the line, you must have done *something* wrong somewhere along the line.

[BlueSkirt]

In the summer of '13, he'll be elected into the HHOF and then inducted in November '13, so IMO his jersey does not need to be raised before the induction.