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Triumph

Member Since 08 Sep 2002
Online Last Active Today, 06:28 PM
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Posts I've Made

In Topic: Devils hoping to retire Marty's #30 this season

Today, 03:56 PM

Yea but we were reaaally close here. Most of us thought he was going to retire in the offseason, I get that he still wanted to see if he had anything left but it was still disappointing when you consider the end result.

If Marty played 2-3 more seasons, even as a back up somewhere I think he belongs on that list. How many greats go out playing 7 games for another team?

 

Hull and Orr in hockey did.  Ruth barely played with the Braves.  Mike Modano missed half the season he played with the Red Wings.

 

Has any goalie in the modern era (1970-) stayed with one team and had a Hall of Fame career?  I guess Dryden did, but he had a very short career.  Roy didn't.  Hasek didn't.  Belfour didn't.  Joseph didn't.  Luongo didn't.  It's REALLY really hard to stay with one team as a goalie because there will usually come a time in a goalie's career where he thinks he is still a starter and his team doesn't think that.  Even guys who weren't HOF level but who stayed in the same place for forever like Turco and Kolzig had their moment in their career where they felt this.  If Lundqvist retires at say, 36,  I bet he stays the whole time with the Rangers.  If he retires at 40, I bet he doesn't.  

In Topic: Another Chump Move by Kovalchuk

Yesterday, 05:56 PM

Stats do matter but they need to be questioned.  These advanced stats are designed to try to reduce as much as possible the qualities a player brings to the game to manageable numbers.  However, no one number is really going to do this.  You can point at even strength points/60 but you have to be critical of the number too.  Kovalchuk led forwards in TOI.  I'm not sure if this still holds true when only considering even strength but you also have to consider that he was being used so frequently and therefore became more tired and inefficient.  Being double shifted on a PP and then going out for your next even strength shift, you don't think that Kovy coasted a bit more?  

 

Sure, I agree that Kovalchuk suffers when you consider points/60.  I wish the Devils hadn't used him so much, he was remarkably ineffective when double-shifting at ES - his offense when not with his regular ES linemates is comically bad.  The trouble is that Kovalchuk's Corsi is not good either, whereas Jagr's is, and it's clearly Jagr doing the lifting when he's on the ice, whereas Kovalchuk got Parise for a season and Parise had his worst territorial season that we know about.

 

Furthermore, Jagr when he was on the Bruins had the opposite problem.  Because he was on a good team, he had good linemates going up against generally lesser competition for less TOI.  This is the reason why people have brought up how Jagr isn't a feature guy.

 

That's the reason?  You think teams weren't going up against Marchand-Bergeron-Jagr with their top defenses?  I disagree.  

 

It's not about mysticism or anything like that on my part, it's understanding the limitations of bringing up one stat (or a few) as a panacea.  I don't discount that looking at those numbers show how great of a player Jagr was (which is partly the reason why I feel like the Devils will be taking a major step back).  But the numbers can only do so much.  So to retort to your claim of my "mystic ooga-booga factor" I would say you can close the book of the Holy Stat Sheet that was brought down to you by the Great Statistician in the Sky.

 

I'm talking about what wins hockey games - goals, and shots on goal (which lead to goals).  Does it get everything?  No, of course not.  However, you're talking about a bunch of stuff that can't be measured at all.  You are assuming you are correct without any evidence.

In Topic: Another Chump Move by Kovalchuk

Yesterday, 03:26 PM

And were the Devils a contending team in 13/14?  No.

 

That doesn't matter.  Were the Bruins a contending team when Jagr was their 1st line RW in 12-13 in a march to the Cup Finals?  Yes.  Jagr was a legitimate 1st line RW in terms of points/60, and he was a monster playdriver to boot.  He was unlucky to not score any goals in that run. 

 

That was what coffeecake said.  He is a talented player that has defied time for longer than most, but you can throw out all the stats you want, Kovy is obviously a better player during that time.

 

Oh, okay.  We can just say anything we want now.  Stats don't matter.  You're saying it, so it's true.  It's basically impossible to proceed from this point, but I will soldier on.

 

You can discount all of your points by saying that Kovy played on the Devils that suppress events.   The main point of Kovy is how he is dynamic; Jagr just got old and became conventional.  No team would have to weigh their D towards him as much as they'd do Kovy.  This is not knocking Jagr, it's just what it is.  Jagr is not someone to build a team around, but would be a great part of a team that would contend.

 

Kovalchuk is a natural events suppressor by himself.  He was in Atlanta - in terms of shots - and he continued to be in NJ even after they altered his game to fit into the system.  Kovalchuk's supposed 'dynamism' didn't result in goals or assists often enough.  I'm not after mystical explanations, I'm after real ones.  

 

If Jagr is your best forward, you probably won't go far, I agree - you'd have to have very strong goaltending and defense.  If Jagr is your 2nd best forward and you have plenty of depth besides, you can definitely go far.  By the way, the same thing is true of Kovalchuk - if Kovalchuk is your best forward, you probably won't do all that well.  Atlanta did a good job of showing that year after year, and the Devils did a good job of showing it too.  You can invent all the mysticism you like, the ooga-booga factor of Kovalchuk really seemed to terrify people, I guess - were opposing teams not thinking about Jagr when playing NJ?  The guy who was carrying NJ's 1st line?  I'd hate to see an unconventional Jagr if the conventional version outscored the nearest forward by 14.

 

Now maybe Kovalchuk was stifled by the DeBoer system (and totally lost under MacLean) and Jagr clearly benefited from what the coaching staff put in place, but the facts are what they are. 

In Topic: Salvador Retires - The Players's Tribune

Yesterday, 12:35 PM

I've felt the same way about Salvador for a while now.  Salvador the player was very tough to watch at times.  Salvador the person seems to be about as nice and wholesome a guy as you could possibly meet.  And it's scary what these guys put themselves through to get keep playing.  Sal basically put his life at risk for several years...for his sake, I wish he'd just left the game in 2012 (especially after reading about what brutal shape he was in), but it's gotta be really hard to do that when someone offers you $9.5 million over three seasons...and easy to think "Just let me get through three more seasons, and I won't ever have to worry about working again, I can stay home and take care of myself and my family, for life." 

 

I don't think money had much to do with it - he's a family guy and I've seen multiple people on different message boards intimate they live near Bryce, which at least implies he isn't living in some palace.  The guy clearly loves the game of hockey, and you only get one shot at retirement - once you retire, you're done.  The fact that it took him until September to announce his retirement may have been to prepare this article for the Players Tribune, but it sounded earlier in the summer that he legitimately didn't know if he was going to call it quits.  And that's after missing most of the last 2 seasons with injuries.  Some guys play until they pull the jersey off of you and that was Bryce Salvador.

In Topic: Another Chump Move by Kovalchuk

Yesterday, 10:17 AM

Kovalchuk did plenty of things that drove me crazy, but there aren't a lot of situations you would rather have Jagr on the ice for. 29 year old Kovalchuk and 40+ year old Jagr aren't even comparable. Kovalchuk is an offensive weapon who is the best at what he does. Jagr is at best a complimentary player on a contending team.

 

I would rather have Jaromir Jagr out on the ice at even strength than Ilya Kovalchuk.  He scores more points per 60 minutes, his goal scoring is comparable, and his team scores more goals when he's on the ice than with Kovalchuk (and gives up fewer, though that has more to do with goaltending).  I'm looking at both players' stats since 2011-2012, by the way.  The idea that Jagr is a complementary player on a contending team is nuts - maybe now at 43 he is, but in 2013-14, he was a 1st line forward, without question.  He carried that Devils team to a ridiculous degree.