Posts posted by Joe B
No way, Cory would get booed though
But yeah since we already played the Blues twice there'd be zero chance of awkwardness.
We will boo him when we meet them in the finals.
how many games have we had camm, havlet and henrique in the lineup? Our top end forward talent isn't very deep but its good enough to make the playoffs. Solid 2 lines with decent depth talent for the 3rd and 4th depending on injury or other team matchups. I think way too many people flip out with lineup choices. We will need brunner and jaja to stay fresh.
our goal is to keep it healthy enough during the season to make the playoffs and have it healthy during the playoffs. I've thought we've only had a few truly bad games. The blowouts didn't seem lopsided till late. The Jets game the other day was a low point, and really left the bad taste. (and the avs game felt like a lost 2 points,) but at the almost quarter pole we've had a road heavy schedule and right in the thick of things. Exactly how many powerhouse teams do we have in the division. Pit ok, but while I d think the Isels look good. You never know over there. They just aren't used to winning so lets see how they develop. Rags, Caps and Flyers aren't in a much better shape than us are they?
The young D have to be more consistent.. As long as Harold doesn't see the ice, you can rotate larsson and gelly to keep everyone fresh, and reward good play and motivate. Even Severson.
PK(not jane) goes to sh!t when Sal comes back and management will have to make that choice. Key is to play well while he is out. And what happened to thtk it's fatigue,e aggressive PK? Was it just Zach and Henrique with all the breakaways? Was the if you see someone bobble the puck you get on them immediately an oats thing? Also, Stop taking so many stupid penalties.
The PP has me confused I will admit. They just don't seem to be able to enter the zone consistently. Seems like lots of short passes side to side or even backwards(and did I see a flying V a few game ago?). I'm not saying do it all the time but shouldn't we dump every now and then just to keep the D off balance?
Cory needs time to adjust to being the man. He's looked great most of the time but he has cost the team a few points with extremely soft goals. Don't think it's fatigue from the workload, just a different mentality. Still think the adjustment to a non puck handling goalie needs time as well. No coincidence all the young D with the new goalie.
i'm still optimistic about the season(not saying slam dunk in playoffs, but I do see them making it). Lots of new additions to this team. Lets see how it gels.
And you don't be a seller at the deadline unless you are sure you are going to miss the playoffs. If management doesn't think a team is good enough to try and improve. Why the hell would any fan show up to the game and just doesn't set a good mindset for the franchise.
Not a good start. Hopefully pressure doesn't start mounting
Win 3 out of 4, lose a 1 goal game to a good team and all of a sudden there is pressure?
Been a fan for years, but I never actually played and I have a question I've been wondering about(and I hate to admit that I think I know the game fairly well but don't know some of the absolute basics that you might learn in mites)
When a player looses his stick, why don't they go to the bench and get a new one more often? Not talking D or G, always have the F give to a D with no stick, given.
Especially with the 'new nhl' rules (despite not getting a pp last night which while I didn't think the stars deserved many, there was enough chippyness to give them one.) where if you grab you may get called, What can you do besides possibly block a shot or box out? Maybe the lw switch with stickless if they can so the trip to the bench would be shorter first then just sprint for your stick and swoop back.
Would it open up a shot too quick? just blocking shots and some boxing out doesn't seem like enough help if you get stuck out there for a while. How does being on a pk already affect the thought process? That is mainly when I think they should get the stick.
Yeah I know I tried to get cute with Fenwick but has there been any actual studies? Doesn't happen often enough to get data I'd guess but I wouldn't be surprised if I read a post on ILWT about it.
I can't speak for all but I do think the negative Cory posting is from people that were sick of every little think Marty did wrong get treated like he needed to be shot (Tri I think even said Marty didn't have a great game when he had a shutout) but Cory gets a pass on games he gives up weak goals(which when Marty gives them up, are demoralizing to the team). We were a top defensive team and horrid offensively, but kept hearing how this team missed the playoffs because Marty sucked. More blame should have been placed on ryder and others having streaky years. Everyone knows he was at the end, and not the same, but he did also play well at times. It's not that some of us thought that Marty could do no wrong. It was a vocal majority of posters thought Marty could do no right. Every word in any interview proved what a egomaniac prima donna he was that demanded every game. Not like I posted at the time of the trade. It was Marty's job to lose, but Cory had to take it. He didn't Pete gave him opportunities, more than some people admit(and none here know's what the locker room felt,you can all guess, but that is projection, just like who gets the letters) It was starting to be his job going into the break but he started slowly. He played well at times and during stretches, but didn't get the wins. I don't care about the stats(nothing against stats, you need a balance of stats and eye test), he didn't get the wins. Hell, you don't think Cory would have gotten more starts if he started winning some of his shootouts?
Now it's Cory's team he will get too much of the credit, he will get too much of the blame. He has a tough job to fill replacing top 5 G of all time that played (hopefully) his entire career or our team. You would that that would get a player a little damn respect. You know, like not mentioning how we wouldn't the game if he was still on the team during the TB thread when he isn't even on the fvcking roster this year. I rather remember the 3 cup and 5 finals(one of which was while he was already getting bashed day in and out on this forum(all of which while he was probably getting bashed by GR)).
The team has to adjust to the lack of puck-handling cause Cory just doesn't look comfortable. I don't think it's a coincidence that the more mobile D transition has started because you won't be able to hide D anymore. Maybe I'm looking for it more, but I do notice a lot more dump ins the last couple games.
If I'm gonna ramble, I'm going full out ramble.
I do think many are finding frustration with this board(I've seen it mentioned in other threads, and believe me, I've stopped lurking/posting for years because of it as well)) because in the past there have been very good posters and there are still good discussions, with enough humor thrown in where it was enjoyable reading 90% of the forum. The negativity and idiocy on this board make it feel like TG's comment section at times.
The to YS or not to YS question is insane here. I don't get why so many people get upset because our fansbase likes to be negative. We are the fanbase that booed Bettman first. Forget which year. Our fans booed in the 2nd period on the PP of our home opener in a year where we raised a banner. We may have even been ahead at the time. some people like the YS chant. I don't know why it bothers others so much. I don't chant it but I do sit at the game and fit in how you can fit the ys or rangers suck in every song played. It's a fun way to pass the time when you can't hear the person next to you talk talk because god forbid you would be able to talk to someone when the game isn't on. That's all sports nowadays though. I also understand people being irked by it, I just don't understand how other can say it ruins their night or whatever. We have much more idiotic ans yelling shoot every 5 seconds. I'm sorry, Jagr has 700 fvcking goals, I think he has an idea of when to let it rip and when not too. And it just feels like the new owners are trolling our fans.
Why anyone would give up on Larsson at this point is beyond me. He still young, he showed he has the ability. Why trade him now at his lowest possible market value? I think there is more of a chance Gelly gets dealt. Just seem to have more value on a team if he doesn't fix his D. It seems to improve at times, but he needs consistency. Can't teach that shot though which is why he will always have trade value.
Severson looked to make a few mistakes last game. Not enough to bench, but I would keep an eye on him. Lemaire always talked about how it's tough for young players to play consistent every night. You can play on adrenalin for a while, but playing without too much of a high or low takes a while(and since he played so well in so many games maybe it isn't adrenaline). Again, one game and maybe it just sticks out because of how good he has been, but it was noticeable. I am stunned how well he's played to be quite honest.
hmm, what else have I been wanting to post but haven't bothers with in a while.
Yeah. It's not even 10 games into the season. Can we stop with the fire this one and fire that one talk? OTL are ties, not losses. Please. Lets see how some of the new players fit with the team before jumping off bridges.
Traffic sucked last game. glad I dvr'd the game because I missed the ceremony. The tv crowd did miss the ref do an punching motion when he said the fighting majors. Not quite giving him the business but pretty damn close.
can't wait for a mid week candien team so I can walk around and check out the new food. found the deep fried sausage, need to find out where the poutine is.
Cory hate more of a blowback of the Marty hate the last couple years. Our fans on this forum and at the arena are more and more frustrating. I like to ramble and say because every 2 sentences.
Dont lump people into one group. Some people didnt like when they took away the goal song, but that doesnt mean they all endorse boo'ing after a devils goal, or this hilarious shirt.
This, Don't care what side of the aisle you are on this debate. That shirt is funny.
To get 3 pages of people getting bent out of shape about other people getting bent out of shape and not seeing the parallel is not quite as funny as the shirt but damn near close.
I think this is more of a lets see what Severson has than a knock on Larrson. I'd be surprised if after all is said and done Larsson doesn't get 60 games. I would guess he eds up with more games then Gelly. Casue despite his slapshot, his all around game needs to improve over last year.
As for who's had the better camp. None of us know, A few pre-season games don't mean as much as the scrimmages. I will tend to defer to Pete since I'm guessing he saw all of them.
As for the Harrold hate. He's just not that great on either side of the puck. Good 7th where he doesn't look lost after sitting a few weeks, played wing in a pinch, will probably be up in a couple weeks once Severson gets that taste for the NHL level (like the devils say they like their prospects to see) and gets sent back down if he gets complacent or fades.
Not thrilled with Adam airing the dirty laundry, but not upset he feels that way.
Season is a marathon, not sprint.
Not convinced Harrold is going down to start the season. How long can he be sent down without clearing? Rather have him sitting as the 7th D with Severson getting 25 mins a night in the A.
Maybe Lou is just seeing if someone will take the bait and claim him. I just don't think his offensive upside is good enough for his lack of defensive ability. At least Gelly has a slapshot and has potential to improve.. I really don't know what Harrold brings to the table and he is what he is.
Not upset about Bernier or Carter, We just have better options now. Great in the playoff run which just shows you what can happen to a team that has a 4th line that chips in offensively. Which Lou seemed to address this off season by incrementally improving.
I think jj, ruutuu an tootoo can be an effective double trouble line. I'd start jj over gio, but that may not be the plan.
I'm optimistic about this team. Better then the 50-1(bovada) odds to win the cup. over under is 87.5(bovada) at a -130 which mean big money is on the over. Regular season wins is at 36.5(wagerabc) at -120 on each side (never thought abut reg season wins, only thing that may put doubt in your mind with that is the shootout last year). I've been to vegas enough to know you might get better deal shopping around but those are the lines I see.
I know, off on a tangent. When am I not?
Not knowing what the prices are going to be which may change my opinion, but the sausage corndog was the best of the new food with the pulled pork(gravy not bbq) poutine a close second. Still wish the players had their jersey, or some sort of id because I just don't know half the young players by face alone. Hell, I got a Merril jersey and I probably wouldn't recognize him if I walked into him.
Cammy said that 13 never came up during the negations and when he got to camp, 23 was waiting for him. He was answering a question, he didn't bring it up before all the tin foil hats come out.
Owners were very friendly and weren't swamped with people.
Always love talking to Lou for a couple minutes. He doesn't get enough respect when it comes to his interactions with the fans.
Kenny has to learn how to interview. He asks a question, then spends more time in explaining his question then the players do giving answers. Better than when he first started, and maybe the looseness of the event contributed, but it is something he has to work on. Wish Doc was back to help him with the transition. Just wish Doc was back in general, but that is just selfishness.
If you walked by Patty and didn't know him, the last thing you would guess is that he's a hokey player.
Even talked to Pete the organ guy. Nice guy, i didn't go near the ice, but looked like a bunch of stuff going on down there as well.
I've been to a couple of these, all in a all a good event.
He's in Jersey now. Should change it to left lane for passing only.
heres a little interview with scott gomez.. we should all watch to see what this guys personality and attitude is really like.. seems to be a real D-bag..but than again i guess if i was washed up and came crawling back to my original team begging for a chance to play i might feel little too.
I guess people see what they want to see. I think pk has the best description of him. Goofy. He can barely keep a straight face when joking with Matt. He answered some questions seriously, he was joking around on others. Not sure how you get d-bag out of that. Not sure if you saw him on his first stint, but he does like to joke around.
i still think a properly motivated gomez could be an asset for this team. He knows more than the other tryouts what is expected of him. Then again, I do like the 3 lines that seemed to emerge today. so not sure he would fit on an energy line and I would like to see jj get a shot. He has had his moments but seems to get hurt when he gets going. Gomez would certainly help the 2nd pp unit. And with Marty gone, the more players that can carry the puck out of our end the better.
AS this team gets cut down, will be interesting.
Gomez is a lil insurance, kick in the as for JJ. Every time Josefson gets going he gets hurt. I like his game. Can trust him in his own end, good on the pk. Shows flashes but not consistency on the offensive side. Jay Pandolfo made a career here doing that.
Gomez knows whats expected of him defensively if he plays here. I'm sure the upgrade the 2nd pp unit alone would improve this team enough to make it worth the chance. Of course assuming he still has the skill. Knowing going in what is expected of him and what role he would play should help him stay focused.
Low risk, (I won't say high) some reward. If you are worried about the young guys not getting a shot. If you can't beat out players on camp tryouts, you aren't ready. Make them keep you like Sykora made the team keep him. Hell, Jansen got a couple months by scoring 2 goals in a call up. You play your role, you are dependable in your own end, you get playing time on this team. Been like that for a while.
Simpsons aren't as terrible now as everyone makes them out to be. They are better on he second viewing (i think the if it set to the high standard the early simpons created. . Usually one or 2 good lines an episode(unlike episode like lisa he vegetarian which has 5 or 6 lines which are still quotable to this day) . Tough to stay original after so many seasons(Lego episode was good). Not as good as they once were I agree, but I do still dvr every episode.
Family guy started out strong, but the last couple of seasons have had a few too many shows that have annoyed me. Someone mentioned the Lisa centric episodes getting under their skin. Brian does the same to me at times. Far more good than bad, but it has lost a step.
South park has evolved and because it is so fresh and timely, it can be better then both of the others. but again, there are a couple episodes a year that I just won't re-watch because they are just bad. Very few, but when they are bad, they just really suck.
Archer is the best animated show on tv now. Start from the beginning, because the jokes and character development build on each other.
I would recommend Venture brothers as well. Not as good as Archer, but it has it's moments.
From an old bastard that watches way too many cartoons. I do remember the Tracy Ullman show where they Simpsons were just a little more than bumps (I guess that is hat you would call them).
sorry for bumping this, but weird al has a new song out that would be perfect. 1:09 - 1:39 is perfect for our fanbase.
Try and add a you suck to it. I dare you.
Sad thing is that I'm only half joking
when was his last game in the khl? does he have to sit out a season or just a years worth of game for him to be eligible to come back to nj without any other teams objecting? Would love to have him back for the playoff push this year.
My take is that he quit on the nhl over the lockout, not the devils specifically. And with the olympics around the corner,just looked like the grass was greener. After the CBA, with the recapture, Lou said if you are gona go, go now before the contract kills our cap, but wait for Lou's timing to help the team out. I know Lou said he didn't know, but if you believe what Lou tells the press you haven't been a fan of this team for long. Have you ever heard Lou say he doesn't want a free agent back? Do you think he wants every free agent back? He just doesn't bad mouth his players.
I still think we get Jagr if he stayed. Probably not Ryder or Clowe and Brunner.
As someone mentioned earlier in this thread, I just got the feeling that he was never coached on how to play the game. You saw improvements each year, but you aren't gonna put up gaudy numbers if you play both sides of the puck. Will he ever be pandolfo in his defense? No, but he was getting to the point were you were cringing when he went on the ice for a pk(ok, maybe you were, I wasn't).
Other than neids (not rob ha) skating, he was the most gifted player we've had (Molgilny had some magic as well I will admit). You just can't teach a player to create something out of nothing which I've see him do.
This team didn't need much to be in the playoffs. It did need scoring (and a bit of consistency, beat some good teams, lose to some bad teams drives ya nuts), I think if he could get on the same page as Jagr, the not as horrible of a pp as it seemed at times could be the difference.
Besides, if Claude can come back after telling Lou that signing a fax isn't a real, anyone can come back. Maybe with the exception of Danton who put a hit out on Lou, but if he could have helped the team, Lout would think about it.
I only posted here cause the thread was revived and wanted to get my 2 cents in and I don't think I have on this subject.
As I said at the trade. It's Marty's job until Cory takes it. Cory has not taken it. Pete has tried, but Cory just hasn't. Marty is streaky, but Marty is winning. This isn't baseball where your offense is not affected but pitching, Marty plays the puck more. Cory while getting better isn't on the same page with he D all the time. Blame the rookies a bit casue Marty hasn't been on the same page with them a couple times, but Cory just doesn't help himself when he's out of his crease. And he stops play too often, Marty just has a better feel for wheat the team needs.
Marty would be starting goalie if the devs played playoffs right now,
All that being said, was just an off night. Cory will be the goalie of the future, Whether that future is next season or by the end of this season is up to Cory stepping up when Marty goes in one of his bad streaks. Cause if Marty is playing well, it's Marty's job and he deserves it.
And if it's like now and both aren't on their A game, it's still Marty's job. Cory is the future, but Marty has been here 20 fvcking years which is why their is so much Cory trolling tonight because of the double standard with some posters that have to take shots every game towards Marty even when when he wins.
As for tonight, one of a few bad games of the year. I would be much more worried if they haven't played every other top team well. 3 in 4 nights, 4 in 6 nights, road,, xmas break, Didn't think it started bad, but once there was, the fight wasn't there. again, don't come back from down 2 last game, more worried, but the team has had the heart most of the year. so to quote AEN 'what, me worry?'
teddy look like he will have more value on another team, shows flashes but I just don't see it.
I like jj's game but he needs to show more killer instinct on the kill. Glad it was back for the team a few games ago cause I don't remember the offensive chances like we've had the previous years under Pete. I thought jj had a few chance to push but either didn't see it or didn't think it. i'm not sure which is worse.
i really want to see Larsson and Gelly as a pair for every game they are healthy for the next, I don't know, dozen years? Glad there is the break. I think he needs to balance his game again, Gelly has impressed me with his skating,
Whole team has seemed to be skating out of the zone better on the pp. Different breakouts? more confidence? Anyone care to explain?
Speaking of Cory taking control, Who is gonna step up to be the clear number 2 line? Ryder is making his case. Boucher has the skills and has a more complete game then I was expecting, Hit the post tonight, I think I saw him out there on a shift with Patty and Jagr, Maybe it was just a broken line change but that is getting a young skill player a chance if I've ever seen one.
took 5 of a tough 8
6 of the next 8 games are home games. Take 12 of 16, including payback for tonight's loss and the team will be in a good place.
I can just imagine this board next year when Marty signs a 1 year deal while Cory extends for 8 on the same day. That's how Lou rolls
haha that's funny
Senators didn't show up tonight but the Devils did and that's what happens. Ottawa is a disaster in their D zone when they are not playing well.
Didn't think Brodeur played very well but the two goals he gave up weren't bad plays at all, still gave up some ugly rebounds and almost had a goal go through him in the 1st. Would be nice if NJ could play like this for Schneider more than once, though - then again, Schneider has gotten considerably harder starts.
I'm guessing Cory starts Friday and Marty Sat. He should be seeing the west cause he should be more familiar with the teams. Does that have anything to do with the harder starts, just cause the west is so much harder, I haven't looked.
i come away from that game thinking he played ok, i remember one rebound off of the arm or shoulder but not much else other then the quick glove save. . i plan on watching the game on tv so I will reserve judgment for now.
i'm disappointed in this board, I was fully expecting to see a Patty-Brunner-Gelly time reference because of the last goal.
I think the jansen goal was sort of a kick. He was clearly stopping but he did adjust his foot so that it would hit the puck from my perspective. I think without that goal, the devils lose this, the game was about to get out of their reach that goal got them back in it before it was to late.
Brunner probably played his last game as a devil.
Harold was basically an accident waiting to happen all night, literally stuff was going wrong whenever he was on the ice. Hemmed in our zone with him out there, I almost died at the start of OT where we win the face off and because of him the rangers end up with possession of the puck in our zone.
Boucher has not done that much in terms of scoring, but he is really physical compared to guys I thought he would be like, such as teddy.
Sestito isn't atrocious.
Merrill had some flubs tonight, but he made up for em.
Gelinas is so impressive, there was one play in the 3rd where he brought the puck up and tried to skate it through 3 defenders, almost worked lost it at the end but was very karlson like.
Marty had some decent saves but this win is not a result of him being in net, Schneider could have made all those stops and more. I really don't want to see him in net unless he has to be. He just looks so shaky at times. With Marty I still feel and fear that any shot could go in, with Schneider I know the offense has to make a great play to beat him (deflection, great passing play). Not that he wont give up some bad goals as well, hes had a few of those, he just seems way more consistent.
Anyway good to get a win, better to get one against the rangers 3-0-0 bitches.
Marty got a assist on that goal which if we don't get we don't win. Not that I necessary agree that we don't win but at least be consistent.
Oh I'm sorry that I think a local host should know more about hockey then horse racing. That a little bit of professionalism and giving a damn about your job. It just drives me insane that this jabroni is the top of the local sports landscape because he's an ass and just awful at his job.
Maybe the sports landscape cares more about horse racing then hockey. Otherwise he wouldn't be number 1.
what is the obsession with Francesca on this site? He doesn't know hockey, he admits it, he knows sports and can relate it to hockey when the playoffs come around.
It's sad actually that he is more honest about the rangers come playoff times then most of the guests he has(micheleti) cause he says when he doesn't think they are playing great and got lucky to go a couple rounds. That was my feeling on his analysis 2 years ago. He doesn't like regular season hockey and doesn't pay attention. I rather have it the way he is instead of most of their hosts that think the rangers will win the cup every year and no other team is worthy of their time.
It's like howard stern fans that listen to every second while claiming to hate him. If you are looking for hockey talk why even bother with the fan?
You can. But unless you find a way to incorporate "you suck" into the goal song, the organization would still be the victor.
The goal song is still not needed to have a great crowd atmosphere. Most baseball teams don't have home run songs. Most football teams don't have touchdown songs. They simply let the crowd noise be audible without the presence of a song.
you can get a you suck, rangers suck or some other variation of suck chants in most songs. And if not, I'm betting the crowd will stat chanting it after the new bell when anouncng the goals. Thats a great time for some chant so somethings gonna come up. Is the chicken dance going away? happy and you know it? YMCA, even the birthday song.
I could hear a 'fvck you fvck ball' in honor of Gandolfi and Dennis Farina after every goal regardless of song. New owners say you suck doesn't sound so bad now.
What does a guy owning a philly basketball team or and ex msg operator know about family atmosphere? And didn't this franchise go away from family atmosphere when you move to Newark?
It does piss me off greatly they didn't do test runs during the preseason.
didn't they do it in pre season? I went to the first game and thought I heard that crap song.
And for someone who said earlier in the thread why so much emotion over a simple song, you sure have posted a bunch in this thread, I'm truly trying to figure out if you are just trolling at this point, especially since you seem to be all over the place with your arguments, keep saying things that were shown not to be true in earlier posts. I'm not even sure if you know your exact point at this moment cause you are all over the place.
Was it the NBC Sports theme or something? It does sound like it be overplayed, but I can't remember from what exactly. Don't think I'd ever heard the whole song before.
I don't think there is a fanbase that as ever cared more about a goal song than Devils fans. Not saying that is a bad thing at all, but just a fact.
You're lucky cause the actual song is just boring and repetitive imo. First time I heard it on the radio I changed the station and can't get away from that song since. Nice hook, but just nails on a chalkboard anoying.
First time the song was changed cause of the child porn charges or allegations with Garry Glitter. If you can bring a song back from an artist acused of being a pedophile, heaing a crowd chat you suck isn't nearly as bad.
My biggest gripe with the song is that it sounds way to close to the rangers song. That was my first though when I heard it the other day, was the first comment from my friend sitting next to me. If you are going to change it, it better be good. I personally think Fandango's entrance from wwe would be a great choice. I have never seen a wrestlers entrance be more popular then the actual wrestler.
any anyone with half a brain knows they were booing the song and not the goal, 2nd goal you heard the cheers until the song came on. If you think its embarrassing fro this fanbase, you don't know this fanbase. Where's the clip of gary thorne coming out of commercial on our first cup run hearing the sucks chant on the starting lineup(and what happend to swallows for the goalie? That stuck in the caa still?)
If it's one thing this fanbase is known for, it's booing.
You can take almost any song and add a you suck or rangers suck to it. Usually a game we play while getting bombarded with non stop noise and distractions while the game isn't playing.
And how long before the hells bell gong goes off after announcing a goal will start a chant? 3 more games?
Last also, if you don't let the fans chant you suck during a goal, don't be suprised if the next chant they come up with is actually more obscene
Devils' Michael Ryder says teams were afraid to trade for him - fr
If Ryder or Havlet were waived today, any team pick either up? I don't think so.
As for why are zubes and gio in instead of either of them. First of all, not the same role, but while neither are great offensively, they aren't a negative overall. Ryder is a negative now. If he is't scoring, he hurts the team. That penalty after being sat a few games pretty much was the last straw. Entirely his fault, no, but it isn't like he stepped his game up when things got tough either. Tootoo has replaced Ryder lately, not 8 or 11.
Havlet has shown glimpses with patty, but once the injuries started, never got it back.