DevilinLA Posted May 22, 2011 Share Posted May 22, 2011 I've always been upfront and honest in assesing the Devils. Thus far they've been a mixed bag attendance wise...the adversity they've faced in spreading roots in NJ is huge. It was a huge risk dropping the Devils in Jersey. It's hurt us having the Rangers in our backyard and the Flyers to the south (the Trashers and Coyotes have no regional infringements) The fact that we survived from 1982-1995 is a miracle. But the devils did survive, they have carved out a middle of the road fan base competing against two NHL superpowers. Because you have experienced the process firsthand I presume. When you have this type of knowledge of the PHX fanbase then you have a soapbox to stand on - short of that you are simply extrapolating media hype (in regards to franchise demographics) regarding attendance with as little firsthand knowledge as those who accuse our fanbase of having 300 fans total by seeing empty club seats each broadcast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devlman Posted May 22, 2011 Share Posted May 22, 2011 Because you have experienced the process firsthand I presume. When you have this type of knowledge of the PHX fanbase then you have a soapbox to stand on - short of that you are simply extrapolating media hype (in regards to franchise demographics) regarding attendance with as little firsthand knowledge as those who accuse our fanbase of having 300 fans total by seeing empty club seats each broadcast. Absolutely agree. Ppl seem to make judgments based not on fact but on stereotype. And how about ppl question how much money Winnipeg will not make. There is NO money or prospect to be made in Manitoba. zero. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'7' Posted May 22, 2011 Share Posted May 22, 2011 Absolutely agree. Ppl seem to make judgments based not on fact but on stereotype. And how about ppl question how much money Winnipeg will not make. There is NO money or prospect to be made in Manitoba. zero. it may shock you, but there are more hockey fans in Manitoba itching to spend more money on the product and purchase more tickets and merchandise than in Georgia! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devlman Posted May 22, 2011 Share Posted May 22, 2011 it may shock you, but there are more hockey fans in Manitoba itching to spend more money on the product and purchase more tickets and merchandise than in Georgia! Not if atl or phx was good there wouldn't be. Add to that that Manitoba fans have less money at their disposal. But anyway That's not what makes money. You have to look at economic potential and corporate boxes, avg ticket price, tv ads, ratings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'7' Posted May 22, 2011 Share Posted May 22, 2011 Not if atl or phx was good there wouldn't be. Add to that that Manitoba fans have less money at their disposal. But anyway That's not what makes money. You have to look at economic potential and corporate boxes, avg ticket price, tv ads, ratings. economic potential is what dragged the NHL into this mess. Atlanta spends its money on football, nascar, tractor pulls, and general redneck BS. There is huge demand for hockey in Winnipeg, tix won't be dirt cheap like they were in GA and PHX. I can also guarantee that they won't be averaging about 6,000 tv viewers a game like Atlanta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted May 22, 2011 Share Posted May 22, 2011 economic potential is what dragged the NHL into this mess. Atlanta spends its money on football, nascar, tractor pulls, and general redneck BS. There is huge demand for hockey in Winnipeg, tix won't be dirt cheap like they were in GA and PHX. I can also guarantee that they won't be averaging about 6,000 tv viewers a game like Atlanta they absolutely will be dirt cheap, and winnipeg will be a floor team that probably loses money anyway. atlanta could have been a profitable market if the team had been halfway decent. they made the playoffs once and didn't win a game. even winnipeg's ticket sales would fall off if that happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam85491 Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 7, you are showing some seriously annoying hatred for the south and it's culture. "General redneck bs"....really? Why the hell do you even include that. It is without a doubt that if the team had not sucked dick for over a decade with only 4 playoff games (losses at that) that they would be no where near the situation they are in today. It is also without a doubt that if Winnipeg sucks for the next 12 years and endures 4 playoff games (and loses them all) over that stretch, that relocation talk will plague them just like it is plaguing Atlanta. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinn01 Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 7, you are showing some seriously annoying hatred for the south and it's culture. "General redneck bs"....really? Why the hell do you even include that. Yeah 7, everyone knows the south will rise again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevsMan84 Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 In my opinion, Winnipeg is a much healthier hockey market than Atlanta and I would give it another chance as it looks like there is a lot more support in Winnipeg for a yet-to-exist hockey team than an existing team in Atlanta. The move from Winnipeg back in 96 also had a lot to due with the weak Canadian dollar at that time. Now that the Canadian Dollar is stronger and the economy is more robust there, I can see them doing well for years. The team will not do well at first, but they will not be a doormat as they did fairly decent this year and seem to be heading in the right direction for once. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormJosh Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 In my opinion, Winnipeg is a much healthier hockey market than Atlanta and I would give it another chance as it looks like there is a lot more support in Winnipeg for a yet-to-exist hockey team than an existing team in Atlanta. The move from Winnipeg back in 96 also had a lot to due with the weak Canadian dollar at that time. Now that the Canadian Dollar is stronger and the economy is more robust there, I can see them doing well for years. The team will not do well at first, but they will not be a doormat as they did fairly decent this year and seem to be heading in the right direction for once. And what happens if the Canadian currency weakens again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarpathianForest Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 And what happens if the Canadian currency weakens again? Cheaper prices for thos of us who like to order some things from Amazon.ca Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devils Dose Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 And what happens if the Canadian currency weakens again? Yeah, monetary policy musical chairs, when the music stops in one country, try to find a city in the other Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devlman Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 And what happens if the Canadian currency weakens again? Exactly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mxm262 Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 Our currency ain't getting more valuable anytime soon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevsMan84 Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 Our currency ain't getting more valuable anytime soon Exactly. Plus look at the Canadian teams now. They are quite healthy now and much more so than Atlanta, Florida, and Phoenix. The NHL placed their bets that displaced northerns who now live in the south would make up a large part of their fan bases. However, now that the Sun Belt has been hit hard by the economy lately and a lot of the transplants are retired people whom many are on a fixed income, hockey tickets is not something they are willing to part money with. Since a lot of you make the reference that if a team sucked in the first place and moved, they should not get a team again. I guess the Avs and San Jose (they used to have the Seals in the area)and Minnesota should have not gotten a second chance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormJosh Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 Our currency ain't getting more valuable anytime soon It doesn't have to. It just has to appreciate relative to the Canadian currency. If you can't imagine a scenario over the next 50 years where it is possible for the US dollar to significantly appreciate relative to the Canadian Dollar...then I don't know what to tell you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RowdyFan42 Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 It doesn't have to. It just has to appreciate relative to the Canadian currency. If you can't imagine a scenario over the next 50 years where it is possible for the US dollar to significantly appreciate relative to the Canadian Dollar...then I don't know what to tell you. This is a good point, but it doesn't mean the Thrashers shouldn't be allowed to move and/or Winnipeg should never get another chance at the NHL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mxm262 Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 It doesn't have to. It just has to appreciate relative to the Canadian currency. If you can't imagine a scenario over the next 50 years where it is possible for the US dollar to significantly appreciate relative to the Canadian Dollar...then I don't know what to tell you. Yes, I can imagine that scenario, the point is it will be decades. Have you traveled outside the country in the last ten years and found out how worthless the $ is? I'm not a Atlanta hater, you'll find my previous posts on this thread to be in support of them. Its a transplant heavy population. I have friends who have lived there at some point in their career. Seems like if it was run better and/or ownership cared, this wouldn't be happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devlman Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 This is a good point, but it doesn't mean the Thrashers shouldn't be allowed to move and/or Winnipeg should never get another chance at the NHL. True. I'd add that Atlanta never even had a chance to be successful though. They had such poor management and iced bad team after bad team that people shouldnt be surprised with the attendance. I wouldve liked to see the NHL do more to find an owner who could give the team a chance to win some games. If after that people still didnt go to games then so be it, move em. But the NHL cant be a league where a decade with bad management means youre out the door, especially for a brand new organization like Atlanta was. Secondly, if Atlanta has to move then theres a ton of other relocation cities that would be much better fits for the league and franchise's bottom line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevsMan84 Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 True. I'd add that Atlanta never even had a chance to be successful though. They had such poor management and iced bad team after bad team that people shouldnt be surprised with the attendance. I wouldve liked to see the NHL do more to find an owner who could give the team a chance to win some games. If after that people still didnt go to games then so be it, move em. But the NHL cant be a league where a decade with bad management means youre out the door, especially for a brand new organization like Atlanta was. Secondly, if Atlanta has to move then theres a ton of other relocation cities that would be much better fits for the league and franchise's bottom line. This is what people said when the Jets first moved in 97 as well. When they were in the WHA, they were a powerhouse. After the NHL and WHA merged, they were pretty much crippled by the dispersal draft and could only protect a very small amount of players, so the team they spent the last decade building was gone. A lot of teams have been disadvantaged from the start but that is just how it goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 they absolutely will be dirt cheap, and winnipeg will be a floor team that probably loses money anyway. atlanta could have been a profitable market if the team had been halfway decent. they made the playoffs once and didn't win a game. even winnipeg's ticket sales would fall off if that happened. If there was any possibility of the Thrashers being profitable in the foreseeable future (whether successful in the standing or not) you would have seen someone at least expressing some real interest in buying the team and keeping them there, which isn't happening in Atlanta. It's only the possibility of a long term sweetheart deal for public money that's keeping a team in Phoenix this coming season. Fact is, someone's putting up a ton of his own money to bring a team to Winnipeg, and someone might be doing the same for Quebec, and another was prepared to do it for Hamilton, with no one willing to do the same to keep those teams from moving. While to a certain extent those potential buyers see a hockey team a vanity project, they don't expect to take a bath on their purchase. So far as I'm concerned that's where the debate ends (unless of course, we're talking about the Devils, in which case I would demand a Presidential order preventing the team from moving). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 If there was any possibility of the Thrashers being profitable in the foreseeable future (whether successful in the standing or not) you would have seen someone at least expressing some real interest in buying the team and keeping them there, which isn't happening in Atlanta. It's only the possibility of a long term sweetheart deal for public money that's keeping a team in Phoenix this coming season. right, but this is because hockey in atlanta has been terribly mismanaged to this point. the team has had literally no success at all. there was a honeymoon period for hockey in atlanta that has since passed. it's just not likely that atlanta (or phoenix or florida) can recover from their complete non-success in markets that were already not particularly hockey-mad. Fact is, someone's putting up a ton of his own money to bring a team to Winnipeg, and someone might be doing the same for Quebec, and another was prepared to do it for Hamilton, with no one willing to do the same to keep those teams from moving. While to a certain extent those potential buyers see a hockey team a vanity project, they don't expect to take a bath on their purchase. i don't know about this latter point - i don't see how a winnipeg team turns a profit in 5 years. and i don't think any serious quebec buyer has emerged. we'll see how it all goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devlman Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 This is what people said when the Jets first moved in 97 as well. When they were in the WHA, they were a powerhouse. After the NHL and WHA merged, they were pretty much crippled by the dispersal draft and could only protect a very small amount of players, so the team they spent the last decade building was gone. A lot of teams have been disadvantaged from the start but that is just how it goes. The Jets had 17 years to recover from that dispersal draft and werent brand new to a community that pumped in lots of money for a new arena. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devlman Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 If there was any possibility of the Thrashers being profitable in the foreseeable future (whether successful in the standing or not) you would have seen someone at least expressing some real interest in buying the team and keeping them there, which isn't happening in Atlanta. It's only the possibility of a long term sweetheart deal for public money that's keeping a team in Phoenix this coming season. Thats not necessarily true about Atlanta, Daniel. Many investments (not just with sports) take persuasion. There are alot of wealthy groups down there, but people dont really know enough about hockey to invest in it. Investing in sports is tricky enough, especially when you dont know that sport that well. Doesnt mean theres no money to be made. Thats where the NHL comes in and tries to get a group together that either knows the game, or can be persuaded into investing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormJosh Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 Yes, I can imagine that scenario, the point is it will be decades. Have you traveled outside the country in the last ten years and found out how worthless the $ is? I'm not a Atlanta hater, you'll find my previous posts on this thread to be in support of them. Its a transplant heavy population. I have friends who have lived there at some point in their career. Seems like if it was run better and/or ownership cared, this wouldn't be happening. I'm not commenting on whether or not the team should move to Winnipeg or stay in Atlanta, I don't care. I'm only being argumentative on your point that essentially the whole currency thing doesn't matter bit. You say that it will be decades. In 2002 USD:CAD was 1:1.62, at some point in 2007 it was like 1:.92. In 5 years it went from being worth even less than it did when Winnipeg was forced to move to its highest point ever. Now its at about 1:1. A rising salary cap and FX risk can cause what now costs a Winnipeg team 60 million CAD in player salaries could cost them in 5 years 100 million CAD. This isn't Montreal with an unlimited budget...this is Winnipeg we're talking about. Atlanta's GDP is somewhere around ~$250 billion whereas Winnipeg is about ~$50 billion. Its not hard to predict another failure. For more comparison, Columbus, Ohio has a GDP of about $90 billion. I'm not sure what the smallest market team is, but I'm pretty sure it would be Winnipeg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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