Rock Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 It used to be goaltenders took the longest time to develop, but with coaching and reflexes they now come up young. Defensemen and some might say power forwards now take the longest time to develop. The worst thing that happened to Hale was the Scott Stevens comparison. No he is not Stevens yet, perhaps he will never be. Too many people on this board are too young to have seen Stevens when he first came up. He had a world of talent, he made rookie mistakes positionally, and he was a hothead. Teams like the Flyers would goad him into taking penalties, especially late in a close game. What good is all that talent if you sitting in the penalty box and caused your team to be a man down? It took a couple of years for Stevens to realize he was more beneficial to his team on the ice. The Devils felt these kids should get their experience from the beginning of the season. We all agree Martin has come around. Hale was coming around too, then he was injured. We trust in Lou, trust in him he knows what he is doing. I don't know if we should give up on Hale in just some 50 odd games. If the Devils weren't happy with his progress, they would have sent him down long ago. Lou may decide he may have to trade him to get the players he wants, the reason he may trade him is because the other team wants him! Most don't take other teams' poor players. Most GMs are pretty good in evaualting talent. While some here are looking at the near future, Lou like a chessmaster is looking at least 3 years ahead! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insanity_gallops Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 Is it wrong that I find this thread laughable? Cripes, the kid's a rookie. Not all players in their rookie seasons are immediate impact players and forces to be reckoned with. Given the fact that it's been trial-by-fire for Hale this year, I think he's done admirably. He makes, what, 950K a year? And he's a plus-player for the Devils, and he's probably the most physical D-man the Devils have right now along the boards -- White doesn't use his size to his advantage, I don't think I've seen Brown throw a check yet, Albelin, etc. When Hale's game is on, as he has been for a few games this season that I've caught, he really shows what his potential is. He needs time to develop, that's all. Sitting him in the playoffs is one thing -- trading him away is an entirely different matter. Why trade him if he's going to be a keystone of the defense in a few years as younger players make their way to the big club? Yeesh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheeps Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 What he said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insanity_gallops Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 I also think it should be noted that Hale's play really has improved over the course of the season, especially since Stevens has been out. Games from Oct. 8 - Jan 7. -- 31GP 0G 2A -2 Games from Jan. 9 - Mar 5. -- 23GP 0G 2A +5 Not bad, considering he's getting a lot more ice time in the games since Jan 9th, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 ig, that's not a fair comparison.. lately the Devils have been piling it on, just about every defenseman should be a + since January 7th. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJD Jester Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 (edited) it seems like people expected Hale to step in this year and be a Scott Stevens clone. This became even more pronounced when Stevens went down. Still, he has had a very solid rookie year IMO and I don't understand why everyone thinks Hale is so expendable. I may not have been reading the posts very closely, but I'm pretty sure I haven't seen anyone expect David Hale to come up and be a "Scott Stevens clone" now or, really, ever. As one of the most consistant Hale-bashers on this site (remember 'dead to me?'), I will swallow the bitter pill if he blossoms into something signficant on the NHL level (like a Jason Smith; not the Brad Bombardir I think he will be). I think Hale gets a pass on this board from some people because of his height and weight and because he was a first round pick. That's it. Because NO ONE has been able to answer this simple quesiton for me, no matter how many ways I've asked it: What, specifically, have you seen from David Hale this season that makes you confident he will blossom into a top defenseman in the National Hockey League? I've seen him scamper to cover mistakes. I've seen him blow assignments. I've seen him physically dominated. I've seen him actually lose a game for us (Montreal). What are you people watching? <JESTER> Edited March 8, 2004 by NJD Jester Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ice dog Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 jester is 100% correct... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 ig, that's not a fair comparison.. lately the Devils have been piling it on, just about every defenseman should be a + since January 7th. We've also been losing a lot of games by a wide margin. See Toronto. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jas0nMacIsaac Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 it seems like people expected Hale to step in this year and be a Scott Stevens clone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 (edited) Not as many as we've been winning by a huge margin. Plus, our PK's gone to sh!t too, so that won't be reflect on the +/- ledger. Brad Bombardir, NJD? Unfair comparison. Absolutely unfair. Hale's never played a game in the minors. Bombardir played 3 years in the AHL until he sucked for us. Hale's where Bombardir was already. Here's why I think Hale will be a top 4 defenseman in this league: his raw skills. When he figures out how to adjust to the NHL game completely, he'll be a top 4 defenseman in the league. It takes a long time for defensemen to adjust to the NHL game. How long has it been since we developed a college defenseman? Lou mostly trades them away because they're no good. And Colin White was miserable after we let Malakhov go, and he showed it in the playoffs that year. I was one of the biggest anti-White posters after the 01 playoffs, but he's recovered to become a very good top 4 defenseman that other teams would love to have. Edited March 8, 2004 by Triumph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJDevs4978 Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 ig, that's not a fair comparison.. lately the Devils have been piling it on, just about every defenseman should be a + since January 7th. This time you're wrong Tri, the Devils have scored 74 goals since/including January 9 and given up 67. A team +7 doesn't suggest that 'every' defenseman should be a plus. And iggy to put it simply, yes, this thread is laughable. People always get on Whitey for being too agressive and now they're getting on Hale for being too passive? Lou doesn't trade his top, top prospects. People can say all they want about the Morrisons and the Sullivans that Lou gave up they're not stars, they're good players. But Lou never traded an Elias, a Brodeur or a Niedermayer, did he? Maybe Hale's not quite on 'that' level but I suspect Lou will want and need to keep him around. I could deal with the loss of Bergy and even Rupp...but I'd have a problem if they traded Hale. Especially given that there's very few stay-at-home types that are projected to be NHL defensemen down on the farm, at least the last time I checked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jas0nMacIsaac Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 Lou's trading chips right now I would say are the following: Bicek, Foster, Laine, Posnov, DeMarchi, Ryznar, Ahonen, picks, and Larionov. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJD Jester Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 What, specifically, have you seen from David Hale this season that makes you confident he will blossom into a top defenseman in the National Hockey League? How did he cost the Montreal game? Because Niedermayer was a moron for throwing a cheap shot at one on the Habs players. Hale took the man, played it right but got outhusseled which happens in hockey. First of all, he didn't take the man. The Habs had two players down low, and Hale didn't jump to one of them. And as for getting outhusseled...well, say what you want, by I stand by the fact that his sloppiness cost us two points. A couple things Hale does that leads me to believe he will be a great defensmen in the league, He is physical. He has gotten many borderline calls for being overly aggresive in the corners, something you look for in a young defensmen. He takes bad penalties, just like Stevens did. But let's not kid ourselves: Hale hasn't physically dominated an opponent game-to-game this season. How many times have we seen Hale and Defenseman-X pinned in their own zone, in their own corner, unable to outwork opposing forwards? Plenty... He has great hockey sense without the puck. He reacts well when a player like White or Brown wonder out of poitition. He's actually better in the neutral zone than I thought he'd be with the puck on a rush. But as far as being out of position, he makes White and Brown look like Scott Stevens. He makes good crisp passes comming out of the end, I seen him make plenty of accurate hard passes to a forward breaking out, Gomez Elias and Gionta arn't scoring off the rush from Brodeur passes, everyone knows since the EGG line was put together Hale and Brown have been the partners. Well, for someone that lives and dies by the stats, I don't see where you can draw a line between Hale and the EGG Line's success. He's had two assists this calander year, and is a plus-2. Wow! What a difference... The guy dominated college hockey defensivly, everyone knows the NHL is another step but it takes time to adapt to the NHL level, something many mindless fans don't realize. Oh look, another personal attack. Hale looked great in college...I wonder what you would have said about David Emma when he was drafted by the Devils? Or is David Hale the next Lance Ward? Jester, you obviously know nothing about Hale becasue the guy is fairly small for a defensmen at 6`1 215. How is he getting a pass on his size and height? His size is included in the "potential" all the Haliens feel this guy posesses. BTW, Hale is 25 pounds heavier than Martin and Rafalski, 15 pounds heavier than Niedermayer, and the same weight as Stevens, Brown and White. Does that mean you don't know anything about the rest of the Devils defense? <JESTER> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyrisjoe Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 larianov is not going anywhere, he has a no trade clause Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJD Jester Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 Here's why I think Hale will be a top 4 defenseman in this league: his raw skills. When he figures out how to adjust to the NHL game completely, he'll be a top 4 defenseman in the league. It takes a long time for defensemen to adjust to the NHL game. How long has it been since we developed a college defenseman? Lou mostly trades them away because they're no good. And Colin White was miserable after we let Malakhov go, and he showed it in the playoffs that year. I was one of the biggest anti-White posters after the 01 playoffs, but he's recovered to become a very good top 4 defenseman that other teams would love to have. Whitey also is taller than Hale and has at least shown he can outmuscle an opponent. When has Hale shown that? I'm not trying to pick on the kid. I think all of our lives would be easier if Hale was playing as well as Martin has. But to hear this constant blathering about how David Hale is playing good hockey, or that he's somehow untouchable like he's Nieder circa '91 is a joke. <JESTER> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tretyak 20 Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 If it's a joke, it's lost on me. I totally agree with Jason and Tri on this. I've watched alot of young D's, and I don't see any reason why Hale won't succeed in the NHL. I also suspect that alot of what you're blaming on Hale is caused by errors from Sean "the Albatross" Brown. That guy can't ever screw up right! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Puddy Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 To say Hale is untouchable is an overstatement. He's not untouchable like Parise, but he's a guy I think Lou is holding in his pocket in case the right deal comes along. He's not a guy Lou will put on the table first, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nj96 Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 I think Lou will wait at least another year before thinking of dealing Hale. Granted, he's made mistakes, but then again so did White when he first came in. White's still screwing up on a nightly basis and he's still out there. Hale's been thrown to the wolves and I think he's done a hell of a job acclimating himself to the league. With Stevens leaving within the next few seasons (hopefully not sooner), I think Lou's hoping Hale will be a home-grown replacement. While I think we should deal for a vet D before the deadline, I think Hale's got a place in the future of the team. -Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insanity_gallops Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 (edited) Welp, nj96 nailed everything I was going to reiterate, except for one point: Those griping that he's getting outmuscled in his own zone, you have a legit argument. But, again, c'mon, he's a ROOKIE. He's not in peak physical condition for the NHL yet, and to expect him to be in that condition is unrealistic, IMO. Frankly, I'm impressed with the condition he's in right now... the last time Hale played in this many games in a season was in '99-'00 when he was in the USHL. And back in those days and in college, he was accustomed to being one of the biggest, strongest guys on the ice. He's still adjusting to the NHL, plain and simple. It's from this point forward that I worry a bit more about his conditioning -- but maybe Burns and the coaching staff are thinking of this, too, and that's why he was scratched the other night, in part. I dunno. I can't help but think that as big and strong as he is now, he's only going to get stronger and improve his physical conditioning over time. If he's dealt, it's gotta be a hell of a deal... the organization is very keen on Hale and his development. Why else would they encourage him to skip his senior year and come to the NHL, if not to A) learn under Scott Stevens and B) get some professional experience before a potential work stoppage? Edited March 8, 2004 by insanity_gallops Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RolandNJD Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 I have to agree with everyone that's said Hale is just learning. He's a rookie and granted he's made some mistakes... but this kid is definitely worth holding on to. I can only agree during Colin White's first year he made some mistakes. Tons. Honestly I still think White makes mistakes... some costly ones too. You have to remember, even White is still young... despite all the playoff experience. Back to Hale... trading this guy away in his first year would be a vast mistake IMO. Has he done much to show he's going to blossom into a superstar? I don't really think so. However it's his first year... and it's so much harder for a guy like him to adapt to the faster-paced NHL... especially when you're a stay-at-home defensemen. But we NEED a real defensive guy right now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ice dog Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 I think the bottom line is we all want to see Hale make it and become a great player for many years with the Devils. If Lou is convinced that Stevens is a go for the post season, then the Devils are set and they won't make a deal since they would have the following... Stevens/Rafalski White/Martin Nieds/Brown-Albelin-Hale The only thing that is certain, you have to give some talent to get some talent... a lot of people on these boards have been screaming for O'neil, Satan, or a d-man like Zhitnik... well if Lou does make a deal for a "A" list player a young prospect such as Hale may be in the equation... I feel Lou won't make the move if Stevens is on his way back... but only Lou knows, so the next 48 hours should be interesting... also for all the Brown Bashers, honestly the guy has been solid and he makes few mistakes, plays with heart. I enjoy watching what he brings to the game. I would platoon him and Albelin in the post season and scratch Hale... Later~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jas0nMacIsaac Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 Why the hell would anyone want Zhitnik, what type of playoff performer is he, maybe the Tverdovski type. College players turning pro arn't ever suppost to stick a full season playing pro hockey, they play like 45 games a year in college (Hale alot less). The only reason Martin is playing so well is becasue he is suppost to be some super athlete from what I hear. Played Baseball, Football and Hockey. Those types of athletes don't come around to often. What most of you are saying is this....if Parise and Vrana turn pro next year and Parise has 65 points while Vrana has 40.....should we trade Vrana just becasue he isn't up to the level his fellow centermen is at? Stop watching the guy with the hate googles on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJD Jester Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 (edited) What most of you are saying is this....if Parise and Vrana turn pro next year and Parise has 65 points while Vrana has 40.....should we trade Vrana just becasue he isn't up to the level his fellow centermen is at? Stop watching the guy with the hate googles on. No "hate goggles." Like I said, our lives would be easier if Hale succeeded. Trading Hale shouldn't hang on what Martin has done. I think Martin has been better than advertised, to the point where he's a Calder contender. Hale hasn't shown me a thing as far as the potential everyone seems to see in him. The Parise/Vrana argument doesn't hold water. It's not about numbers with Hale (although by your silence I gather his influence on the EGG Line has been properly defined). It's about what's happening on the ice. I will give Hale this: He's better in the neutral zone than I expected, and I think he'd be having a slightly better season if paired with a slightly better defenseman for the majority of his games. But give me this: Hale has been physically dominated, outhussled, and out of position in more games than any other defenseman on this team, including Brown. And for all the Haliens screaming "COLIN WHITE!!!!", I would have traded White in a heartbeat last year when it was rumored the Flames wanted him in a package for Iginla. I was shot down then, too. <JESTER> Edited March 8, 2004 by NJD Jester Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deviledeggs Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 I was watching ESPN the other night and they said 2 good additions to the Devils would be Alexia Zhitnik and Vladamir Malakhov..... Think that would be okay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldply123 Posted March 8, 2004 Author Share Posted March 8, 2004 Jason, Zhitnik is ten times better than Tivo......I never said I want to get rid of Hale, but Hale has played the worst out of all of our defenseman the last month, yes Sean Brown has played better than him the last several weeks..... And I believe Hale may.....I say may.....I repeat may become a top 4 defenseman.....but right now he is off his game......and he was benched rightly so by Burns the other night........ And if McPhee comes to us and says Ill give you Witt for Hale.........You take that deal and laugh all the way to the finals.....And if you dont........may I suggest a head examination.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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